Why We Love MORE BASSSS!

[Satanica]

23 hours ago, LogicprObe said:

 

Yes...........it just goes to confirm my belief that the bass freaks are knuckle draggers.

 

21 hours ago, LogicprObe said:

 

Good bass is different to lots/too much bass.

If the bass is crap...............turning it up just makes it louder crap.

 

As a self confessed bass-freak-knuckle-dragger I'm glad you're around to explain such complicated matters.

[Ooogh]

On 26/07/2020 at 1:30 PM, rodders3 said:

I thought this thread was started by Davie504.

Hello Slapper! Epico.

[Graywulf]

Well I guess I am a weirdo then. yes, I do enjoy 'correct' bass,  even powerful bass if that is what a track calls for. But for me the real enjoyment of listening is the 'mid/highs' detail. Bass IS the foundation, certainly, but preferring a repetitive thump, thump, thump, over for instance the nuance's of Steve Howe's guitar, or the layers of detail in Pink Floyd's or King Crimson's tracks?

[DJGopal]

On 24/07/2020 at 4:17 PM, eman said:

Deep bass might be 'impressive' but overblown or non rhythmic is just bloody torture, in the real meaning of the word.

AKA cheap bass

[mr_gray]

i am a nut for the stuff and easily the most fascinating part of the musical journey has been that somewhat elusive bass which is nuanced and does not bloom and initially sounds quieter but then you realise it is just cleaner and perhaps less distorted.

 

bass is a real audiophile issue in my opinion mainly because for some systems to get good bass, audiophile issues come up, like dealing with noise is so critical to actually hearing clean bass.  that is, noise issues tend to destroy mid bass type frequencies (or make them less clear perhaps).  plus you've got room treatment in those frequencies and arguably woofer / sub-woofer integration requirements.

 

also arguably a focus on bass may bring power cords and cables into tighter focus.

 

for me detailed bass representation including most importantly mid bass is THE defining characteristic of a good audiophile setup versus mid fi or consumer fi for example.

 

 

[almikel]

On 14/08/2020 at 5:42 PM, mr_gray said:

like dealing with noise is so critical to actually hearing clean bass.

IMHO managing noise is required regardless of the frequency band, but most gear has sufficiently high signal to noise ratios not to matter (unless you get the gain staging wrong) - eg audible tweeter hiss at the listening position.

Hum is a different issue, and incredibly annoying if a system has it.

Distortion is a factor for good clean bass + room effects (ringing, modes, SBIR)

 

There's the old saying for all dynamic drivers - "excursion = distortion" - most dynamic bass drivers are creating a lot of distortion well below Xmax.

IME large drivers (or multiple smaller drivers) with good motor design (eg shorting rings etc) not having to move much (so low excursion) to achieve the SPLs required in the room is critical, as is room treatment and EQ.

 

On 14/08/2020 at 5:42 PM, mr_gray said:

plus you've got room treatment in those frequencies and arguably woofer / sub-woofer integration requirements.

Agreed - but most room treatment (absorption) is running out of effectiveness <150Hz unless it's truly huge.

Great mains/subs integration is always a challenge - I would recommend to anyone looking to improve their integration between mains/subs to check out @Paul Spencer's guide on sub integration part 1 linked here https://www.hifizine.com/2011/06/bass-integration-guide-part-1/

 

On 14/08/2020 at 5:42 PM, mr_gray said:

also arguably a focus on bass may bring power cords and cables into tighter focus.

I accept interconnects change the sound subtly but not predictably  - I prefer to adjust my sound using EQ I apply where I can hear the changes as I apply them.

 

On 14/08/2020 at 5:42 PM, mr_gray said:

for me detailed bass representation including most importantly mid bass is THE defining characteristic of a good audiophile setup

agreed - and to achieve it takes a combination of speakers/positioning + sub positioning/integration + room treatment...IMHO some DSP providing appropriate EQ/delay across the solution is the "secret sauce" that brings it all together.

 

In my small, lightly constructed room with lots of absorption and some bands of EQ, my pair of Acoustic Elegance TD18 drivers in sealed enclosures produce fantastic clean bass with low distortion. The TD18s barely move when playing music even at elevated SPLs. Friends have asked if they were working/connected as they couldn't see them moving.

 

Adding/integrating a decent sub underneath the TD18s added "weight" to my setup - very subtle - only noticeable when I turn the sub off when listening to music...

...Danley recordings and movies are a different story - the sub adds a lot to these, but only depth, not slam.

 

Mike

 

[Barton Price]

Just returning to the original proposition, im sure the comment that people Love more bass assumed comparable quality, not a quality versus quantity discussion. 
 

and just to complicate things, and perhaps stoke controversy.... im  an old drummer who has sat right next to some extremely loud bass players, and nothing beats an ampeg svt and  8x10 box, and I’ve never heard any hifi deliver bass sound as good as the real thing! (Running for cover now.....)

[almikel]

I still have no idea what "TL; DR rhythm in music" means in the context of this thread, a term used by the OP in his original post

On 14/09/2020 at 9:26 PM, Rangi said:

Just returning to the original proposition, im sure the comment that people Love more bass assumed comparable quality, not a quality versus quantity discussion.

after re-reading the OPs original post - he was comparing different speakers' bass responses in the same room...with links to another site I read back then...

On 14/09/2020 at 9:26 PM, Rangi said:

im sure the comment that people Love more bass assumed comparable quality

In which case I would say that "people love more bass" depends on the listening environment.

For listening spaces with the bass under control, I would say that most people would enjoy more bass (within reason)...and the opposite for listening spaces with the bass not under control - more bass is horrible/boomy/loose/ringing.

[joeling]

Co-authored by one Dr. Trainor - no relation to Meghan right ?

[almikel]

9 hours ago, joeling said:

Co-authored by one Dr. Trainor - no relation to Meghan right ?

I have no idea what your post means - who is Dr Trainor or Meghan?

 

Mike

[Ooogh]

On 14/09/2020 at 8:56 PM, Rangi said:

Just returning to the original proposition, im sure the comment that people Love more bass assumed comparable quality, not a quality versus quantity discussion. 
 

and just to complicate things, and perhaps stoke controversy.... im  an old drummer who has sat right next to some extremely loud bass players, and nothing beats an ampeg svt and  8x10 box, and I’ve never heard any hifi deliver bass sound as good as the real thing! (Running for cover now.....)

Spot on Rangi, all the power and all the glory.  Hard to replicate 8 x 10” efficient  drivers housed in a small wardrobe being driven by 300 Watts dedicated just to their service, Ampeg are the masters of bass.

 

My wife uses the SVT 410 HLF  (4 x 10”) augmented by a seperate pair of 15” drivers with a modified Fender Super Twin (6 x 6550’s) driving them. The resulting pressure waves can literally harm you but the full SVT Ampeg  rig is a cut above, fat , fast ,violent!  Hard to compete at home with a couple of 8” drivers.....

[joeling]

3 hours ago, almikel said:

I have no idea what your post means - who is Dr Trainor or Meghan?

 

Mike

Dr. Trainor is the coauthor of the study and Meghan Trainor is a pop star who had a hit named “All About that Bass” a couple of years back

[almikel]

On 14/09/2020 at 9:26 PM, Rangi said:

and just to complicate things, and perhaps stoke controversy.... im  an old drummer who has sat right next to some extremely loud bass players, and nothing beats an ampeg svt and  8x10 box, and I’ve never heard any hifi deliver bass sound as good as the real thing! (Running for cover now.....)

I must admit I was confused by this part of your post...

 

I sing in a "classic rock" covers band - in rehearsals the volume starts with how loud the drummer is, and the guitarists start from there, but just keep turning up (not the bassist though).

Live gigs we leave it to the mixer to set front of house and foldbacks appropriately - obviously onstage we're more concerned with the foldback + onstage amp sound so we can hear each other, rather than front of house (which is obviously critical for the audience - but that's the mixer's job to get right).

 

In smaller room gigs we don't amplify the (acoustic) drum kit at all...and just run stage amps for guitar and bass, with FoH and foldbacks for vocals...

 

...I figured your statement below

On 14/09/2020 at 9:26 PM, Rangi said:

im  an old drummer...and I’ve never heard any hifi deliver bass sound as good as the real thing!

related to reproducing the sound of an acoustic drum kit compared to live...

...after reading again, I think you're referring to the inadequate HiFi reproduction of what an onstage 8 x 10" bass amp/driver box can produce at a live gig?

 

I completely accept that domestic HiFi setups can't compete with the SPL capabilities of pro gear at a live gig - but they don't need to.

They just need to produce sufficient SPL at acceptable or lower distortion within their listening environment.

On 14/09/2020 at 9:26 PM, Rangi said:

I’ve never heard any hifi deliver bass sound as good as the real thing!

I'm biased, but my stereo Acoustic Elegance TD18s in sealed boxes with 400W each sound pretty good in my small room - but our bass player doesn't have an 8 x 10" setup

 

cheers

Mike

[Tony Martello]

In 1981 I discovered music (I was only 9yrs old).  My mum had an original ghetto blaster (Aiwa?) with a bigass woofer in the middle.

AC/DC, Stones and all the latest hits of 1981 got played regularly. 
I used to grab a chair put my head right up to the thing and crank my favourites. The funny thing is I immediately adjusted the music to my taste even though I was just a kid. I knew what made me feel good so the bass was at about 2.30 o’clock and the treble at about 1.30. 
It’s hilarious that too this day I need that bass, music feels too tiny And light without it.

I run a pair of ATC scm40’s with a Michi RHB 10 amp (+Belcanto 2.5DAC) and I’m sure many of you would know this is a great sounding combo. Powerful, clean and amazing life-like sounds. But I still needed more, so I bought a SVS sub and now I’m happy. Bass maters a lot, to me. 

[almikel]

On 26/09/2020 at 11:39 AM, Tony Martello said:

Bass maters a lot, to me. 

Bass matters a lot to me also, but I became a bass nut only after hearing a room with its bass "reasonably" under control - hearing tight/dry bass with no overhang was a revelation.

 

Great "in room" bass is more about the room than the gear, although the right gear is important for mains/sub integration and when room treatment gets too large/impractical for managing bass at lower frequencies (eg IME EQ cut works well <150Hz in lightly constructed rooms...I won't comment on managing bass in rigid rooms - they're a nightmare.)

 

A room that doesn't have the bass under control will make the listener turn the bass down.

A room with the bass under control will bring a grin to the listener's face, and they will likely turn the bass up...

 

Back to the OP's thread I would say we only love more bass when the bass is good...when I hear not so great bass, I leave the room/move to a different position/ask them to turn the bass down.

Car audio is a classic example - friends who have listened to my home setup take me for a drive in their car and they turn the bass up... "because they know I'm a bass nut"...resulting in boomy/bloated bass that rings...I ask them to turn the bass down FFS!

 

Clean/tight/dry bass is to die for

Loose/boomy/overhung bass is awful

 

Mike

[warweary]

tldr = too long didnt read.

[almikel]

On 28/11/2020 at 8:04 PM, warweary said:

tldr = too long didnt read.

thanks @warweary - greatly appreciated ! ...I thought it was something audio related...I should have done an interweb slang search

 

 

[odb123]

Thanks for bringing up this topic and to all the posters who commented. The topic of bass is one of the primary reasons i was curious to come back and talk to the great stereonet people.

 

In particular after wanting to get a set of proper headphones for the first time. The bass factor is becoming a strong differentiator.

 

"I have noticed as I upgraded speakers that initially the bass seemed less, but in actual fact it was better defined. When listening to well recorded music you would actually hear differences in drums etc" - @Whites
 

Yes I noticed this when trying different headphones along the similar price bracket.

 

---

 

"The Lyrix went lower, but the timing of the Superbrix and the perceived "speed" of the low end was miles better...  No contest.  Less bass but faster and tighter low end wins for me.
 -  @FR DRew

 

Yes the speed is definitely a factor for me. Possibly this agileness is more necessary when listening to electronic music.

 

---

 

"I prefer deep, detailed, nuanced and full bass.... My little Pass Amp Camp Amp comes to mind. On the other hand I can't stand powerful punchy sounding bass. Don't know why but it gives me a headache despite sounding wonderful. I can't explain it. -  @MattyW

 

I am not sure if it's achievable to cover both style of bass with the same speaker or headphone? I was thinking the degree of each is probably more related to the actual music played

 

---

 

Most people don't understand the consequence of this curve.  (aka Fletcher Munson Curve) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Lindos1.svg

 

..... and lots of people say things which gives the opposite impression from what is true.

 

What the chart says is... that as the frequency gets lower.   It takes less of an actual difference in level to produce more of a perceived difference in level.

 

This means that "bass sounds more dynamic" (for a given change in SPL) .... and that the flatness of the speaker response (absence of peaks and dips) is more important as the frequency gets lower.
 

 - @davewantsmoore

 

Interesting, so headphones with flat bass curves are more able to be dynamic enough to give detail for tricky electronic songs huh

 

---

 

Often it leads to a "mistake" where they compare different speakers in a room.... and they decide one is "better" than the other.   The real difference was a small difference in level at a broad-ish frequency range << 300Hz.     One speaker sounded "warmer"... or better "tone" ... or "less hifi" or whatever.     They attribute it to simply one "speaker being better than the other"......  what it was really is the placement or design of the speaker..... and the difference woud disappear with some EQ to make the difference in levels/tilt of the different frequency ranges more similar between the speakers.
 

 - @davewantsmoore

 

Hmm so perhaps some of the newer headphones that actively employ EQ modifications for each song are sounding better in the ability to be precise and agile due to the active EQing? Do they actually EQ for each song on the fly?

 

 

---

 

I was never much of a bass nut until I:

got my room's bass under control

Prior to having a room with tight/dry/bass, I never mucked with the bass control. 

Assuming a good recording - I now dial up/down bass as I feel like it.
 

-  @almikel

 

This is very promising news considering my current speakers setup, very appealing.

 

---

 

bass is a real audiophile issue in my opinion mainly because for some systems to get good bass, audiophile issues come up, like dealing with noise is so critical to actually hearing clean bass.  that is, noise issues tend to destroy mid bass type frequencies (or make them less clear perhaps).  plus you've got room treatment in those frequencies and arguably woofer / sub-woofer integration requirements.

 

also arguably a focus on bass may bring power cords and cables into tighter focus.

 

for me detailed bass representation including most importantly mid bass is THE defining characteristic of a good audiophile setup versus mid fi or consumer fi for example.

 

- @mr_gray

 

Interesting, for me this is becoming a defining characteristic in my future headphones.

---

 

For listening spaces with the bass under control, I would say that most people would enjoy more bass (within reason)...and the opposite for listening spaces with the bass not under control - more bass is horrible/boomy/loose/ringing.
 

- @almikel

 

Yes I understand. I think I can improve quite a lot with my current setup to achieve this. Thanks for bringing it to light again.

[akjono]

I just found and enjoyed reading this thread. For me as an Ex-drummer Bass is the foundation of music. I am very tuned to the attack and decay of percussion and Bass, and the tone. Not flabby Noise as seen in the Subaru WRXs of this world, etc.... . (I played both kit and Hand drums -African Djembe playing traditional West African songs. Not playing anything lately except attempting guitar now and then.)

 

 Just recently I was in a rural newsagency shop and some music was playing at low volume. After about a minute I could recognize notes in the music but not the song (99% chance it is middle of the road Rock from some era). It was really bugging me. Then I could catch a little guitar phrasing here and there that was familiar, but still nothing clear came to mind. Then I noticed that the "music" was missing the Bass to mid-mids. Like 1000hz and up only!

 

Finally the light bulb went on = it was "Layla" with Eric Clapton. Totally missing the low end the song was unrecognizable for some minutes. We have all heard this song 100s if not 1000 times - whether we wanted to or not - and the lesson for me was clear. No bottom end = no foundation. From Rock to Opera. 

 

"This is Major Tom to Bass Control....". Over and Out.

[Satanica]

19 hours ago, odb123 said:

Most people don't understand the consequence of this curve.  (aka Fletcher Munson Curve) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Lindos1.svg

 

..... and lots of people say things which gives the opposite impression from what is true.

 

What the chart says is... that as the frequency gets lower.   It takes less of an actual difference in level to produce more of a perceived difference in level.

 

This means that "bass sounds more dynamic" (for a given change in SPL) .... and that the flatness of the speaker response (absence of peaks and dips) is more important as the frequency gets lower.

 

I'm not understanding you.

 

Equal-loudness contours are curves that would be needed to correct to flat for perceived human hearing.

 

 

As per above: The ear is less sensitive to low frequencies, and this discrimination against lows becomes steeper for softer sounds.

Edited December 1, 2020 by Satanica

[Guest niterida]

On 26/07/2020 at 3:20 PM, almikel said:

what is TL;DR?

 

 

I think it is actually an emoticon when you post from a phone that doesn't get converted to text properly ??

 

And on topic - good bass is the best thing ever.

 

I am still working on my setup but the plan will be 14 drivers in a well treated room.

[Guest niterida]

oops double post

Edited December 1, 2020 by niterida

[Satanica]

34 minutes ago, niterida said:

I am still working on my setup but the plan will be 14 drivers in a well treated room.

 

Really? Yikes! Harmans research says that four is enough.

https://www.harman.com/documents/multsubs_0.pdf

 

Edited December 1, 2020 by Satanica

[Guest niterida]

1 hour ago, Satanica said:

 

Really? Yikes! Harmans research says that four is enough.

https://www.harman.com/documents/multsubs_0.pdf

 

 

Not for me

 

5 will be driven from speaker outputs and positioned under my 5 ear level speakers - effectively making them full range

5 will be driven from speaker outputs and will be in-ceiling making my Atmos full range as well

The final 4 driven from LFE output are under my couch giving me tactile response.

 

This should allow me to get the best bass - not the loudest. So far I only have the 5 ear level and 3 under my couch and it is so smooth and much better than ever before and that is with just 5 little 30hz subs. These are destined for the heights and I am building 5 LLT subs capable of 15hz while the ones under the couch will provide tactile response down to just 1hz (currently only down to 3hz)

[QuinnInSydney]

On 01/12/2020 at 2:07 PM, akjono said:

Just recently I was in a rural newsagency shop and some music was playing at low volume. After about a minute I could recognize notes in the music but not the song (99% chance it is middle of the road Rock from some era). It was really bugging me. Then I could catch a little guitar phrasing here and there that was familiar, but still nothing clear came to mind. Then I noticed that the "music" was missing the Bass to mid-mids. Like 1000hz and up only!... Finally the light bulb went on = it was "Layla" with Eric Clapton.

 

Great story, @akjono It inspired me to run a little test...

 

I filtered out (-30db) all frequencies below 1000Hz, and set Spotify to shuffle play from a random playlist. Then for the heck of it I tried the same but filtered out all the results _above_ 1000Hz.

 

My completely non-scientific experiment yielded the following learning:

- Songs that were bass- and mids-only were easier (quicker) for me to recognise, when compared to mids- and treble-only songs

- Listening to the mids- and treble-only songs felt like an intellectual exercise (I was straining to recognise lyrics and such)

- Listening to bass- and mids-only songs felt like a physical exercise (my feet were tapping and my head was bobbing)

 

What does all that tell us? Absolutely nothing, I think... but it was a helluva way to spend 20 minutes