Vintage amp advice - using separate amps for music and movies

[SteveAndBelle]

Just now, BCHR said:

Am I right to think I might find something with a bit more power, the 881 for example and in better nick/full refurbished.

 

Yes & no.  Sounds like you need to delve into it all a bit further before you know exactly what you want and the BEST way of doing that is by owning & living with a few over a few months.  The beauty about Vintage Hifi gear is that once you start learning the rough values of things you quickly understand what you should buy things for to then sell later on for minimal loss.  This way you can buy something, live with it for a while then sell it to fund the next unit but even better is not to blow your whole budget on the first thing you find because you'll be amazed at how good some of the cheaper stuff can be!  Don't get me wrong, I have a soft spot for a lot of higher-value gear however I also have a lot of surprisingly cheap gear too and it always surprises me.

 

The Sansui 771 can output 32WPC and for most that's ample!  The 331 can only manage about 10-12WPC which is probably a little too low but IMO anything above 20-25 should suit most people for most situations.  I've got Amps capable of over a kilowatt but do I ever push them that hard?  No way... but one day I might

[SteveAndBelle]

6 minutes ago, Al.M said:

Beg to differ, with a few exceptions, unless you have a special thing for 70s gear the practical answer is to avoid them.

 

This (& everything else in AI.Ms reply) is a good point and must also be considered.

 

I'm not wealthy but I'm good enough with a soldering iron so dried out caps, blown outputs & humming transformers etc. aren't really problems for me.  As long as I get gear for the right price I know I'll be able to repair/restore it if/when required but if you're not keen to start ripping stuff apart then maybe you need to limit yourself to decent 80s & 90s gear.  On the other hand, if electronics troubleshooting & repair is something you may wish to learn & dabble in then there's plenty of online forums around (including this one of course) loaded with extremely knowledgeable folk always willing to lend a hand.  I can't recommend it enough actually... like fixing up an old car, you learn so much along the way and end up being rewarded big time

[RCAJack]

I'm wondering if the amp is not the main issue (although I get that you also need the phono input for your vinyl).

 

As a point of comparison, I wonder if you've tried any alternative speakers in your room? A helpful dealer with the KEFs might even let you compare those speakers with some alternatives, using a couple of different amps to hear what's possible.

 

And regarding Spotify, do you mean you are using Bluetooth to send the signal to the Marantz? Bluetooth has gotten better but there are ways to clearly improve performance on that front without spending a fortune.

 

My instinct would still be to hear some different speakers. It's not that the KEFs aren't very good, but you might just prefer something different.

[Guest dr_carl]

17 hours ago, DrSK said:

From experience a $100 NAD from the 1980s will sound better than a $2k+ Yamaha AVR but a little coloured, but may not necessarily work for long. I've also found that Yamaha stereo amps I've heard under $1500 are not much better than their AVRs. 

 

It seems many stereo amps are trying to pack in DACs, streaming etc for the same price point as they used to sell for just as a basic analogue amp.

 

I'd stick, like others have said to second hand gear up to 10 years or so or if older, check about local servicing. Plenty of 1980s gear around that is still right up there with $15k+ new offerings.

 

Here are a few brands that many people won't think of. 

 

A home grown offering which seem to sit unloved for sale second hand are Redgum. They cop a bit from some in hifi on component quality but a bit unfairly so in terms of sound and seem to be in no man's land a bit. On reputation they probably sit between bigger budget hifi and consumer lifestyle products, but definitely far more hifi. I picked one up for my second system and it does a great job at that and smashed my old NAD, Yamaha AVR etc. Made in Victoria and the people that answer the phone soldered it together if you get the Aussie built ones rather than the offshore assembled models. Amps are dual mono and a bit quirky with two volume dials, which for a few hundred can be sent back to Victoria to get them paired and controlled by a remote on one button. Panel is red gum wood and has a key to lock it which comes in handy with small kids. I picked up my Redgum RGi60ENR for under $1k.

I agree there, I also have lived with an excellent Redgum for the past 5 years.  In fact I am about to sell mine, but I am asking $1500 which I think is out of your budget. 

 

I completely fail to understand why some folks here are negative about RG, when mine was really outstanding.

17 hours ago, DrSK said:

 

 

[audiofeline]

And another perspective. 

 

I put my focus in building the best 2-channel system I could afford, as music is my priority.  Using vintage equipment (apart from my CD/Bluray). 

 

I also enjoy good audio in movies.  So I take the 2-channel RCA line-out sound from the TV, and put it into my hifi.  Admittedly, there may be some loss doing this way and there may be a better way of doing it.  Any compromises I can live with, because it's sound to accompany visuals - TV sound is not audiophile to begin with.  Aany DVD/BluRay I view (eg. music concerts) uses the sound from that device into my amp, so I get the best quality for that. 

 

The hifi system does a great job of producing movie sound, as it has separation and imaging as part of the music quality it delivers.  So I feel that I really don't need (and don't want) surround sound. 

 

[pete_mac]

19 hours ago, Al.M said:

Beg to differ, with a few exceptions, unless you have a special thing for 70s gear the practical answer is to avoid them. You can get modern vintage looking Yamaha AS series amps and similar such as the model 1100 and 2100 used for around $1-2k which were worth about $2-4K rrp and less than 1-5 years old, why would a 40-50 year old vintage amp be any better then. They can be kept going but they will all need the power capacitors changed as they only last 20 years, plus hundreds of tiny capacitors will also be out of spec that you may not notice in sound quality or can notice like funny little background or worse noises. It can cost about $300-500 for a tech to do new power caps, $200-300+ or never able to find a needle in hay stack unknown tiny circuit cap among hundreds that needs replacing. 

 

For every one vintage amp that is kept going, there are more that get junked due to no parts or not worth it. My mates old Plinius 100 power amp cant be fixed, $2k down the gurgler etc.

 

People like the vintage amp sound because it is smooth and romantic but it is also a symptom of old off spec circuit capacitors making it sound that way. The articles comparing quality vintage amps with modern stuff are often unfair as they are making comparisons with modern crap and cheap gear such as budget stereo amps and home theatre amps.

 

With more or less time 50+ years the power transformers can start to hum and delaminate, even more expensive or cause the amp to be junked.

 

I’ve had many vintage amps but each era of the 80s, 90s, 2000s, 2010 to present day all have great amps as well and arguably with modern design, features, sound and voicing.

 

I generally agree with most of what you said - an decision to pursue vintage gear should be mindful of the need to restore the gear to maximise reliability and sonic performance.  

 

In my opinion and experience, picking and choosing the right vintage gear rarely results in gear which is a total loss if issues arise. Obscure boutique brands are often more difficult to fix due to a lack of available documentation -  as a rule, I don't buy gear if a service manual and schematic is not readily available. Any of the good Japanese gear (and much of the Euro and US gear) is easily maintained/repaired/restored by suitably experienced techs/hobbyists, with the exception of those amps with unobtanium output devices e.g. many of the VFETS and some of the high-speed Sankens in certain Sansuis for example. I've also yet to come across gear with dying transformers due to age - this is quite rare IMHO.

 

If the OP is after gear which has that 70s look, it does tend to rule out most modern gear (apart from the above-mentioned Yamaha integrated amps, which are a solid nod towards the 70s Yamaha aesthetic). I've heard and read mixed reports on the newer Yamahas, although I haven't heard one in the flesh so I will reserve judgement.

 

I've moved towards 80s and 90s Sansuis due to the improved sound quality over the 70s models (in my opinion anyway!) but they often don't receive the same kind of interest or attention as the older Sansuis when people come to visit.  I completely understand why people choose to go down the vintage path for a 'centrepiece' component - partly sound, partly aesthetics, partly the 'feel-good' emotional element that modern gear often does not provide. It's borderline insanity/sickness, but can be hard to shake and often develops into a more serious affliction.

 

 

[SteveAndBelle]

2 minutes ago, pete_mac said:

I've also yet to come across gear with dying transformers due to age - this is quite rare IMHO.

 

 

Yeah, I've had many many 'sick' transformers but I've never had one actually fail or die on me.  Further to that, the only reason I've had so many 'sick' transformers is due to my obsession with Perreaux gear... it's amazing stuff but most of their early/mid-80s Power Amps used large, regular laminated transformers and over time they can produce an audible hum.  A quick tighten of the bolts is usually enough to solve that however there are a few I'm going to need to re-lacquer to silence completely and that's something I'm yet to experiment with   Zero hum in the audio output though, only emitted from the transformer itself and apart from that they're incredibly good units... even the few I have that were gigged for 30+ years and look like they've been through a world war!

[pete_mac]

1 minute ago, SteveAndBelle said:

 

Yeah, I've had many many 'sick' transformers but I've never had one actually fail or die on me.  Further to that, the only reason I've had so many 'sick' transformers is due to my obsession with Perreaux gear... it's amazing stuff but most of their early/mid-80s Power Amps used large, regular laminated transformers and over time they can produce an audible hum.  A quick tighten of the bolts is usually enough to solve that however there are a few I'm going to need to re-lacquer to silence completely and that's something I'm yet to experiment with   Zero hum in the audio output though, only emitted from the transformer itself and apart from that they're incredibly good units... even the few I have that were gigged for 30+ years and look like they've been through a world war!

 

Sick transformers is a bullet that I've managed to dodge so far - and upon reflection, my focus is pretty narrow (mainly Japanese amps and Sansuis in particular) and may not reflect what occurs with other brands out there regarding transformer issues.

 

[SteveAndBelle]

5 minutes ago, pete_mac said:

 

Sick transformers is a bullet that I've managed to dodge so far - and upon reflection, my focus is pretty narrow (mainly Japanese amps and Sansuis in particular) and may not reflect what occurs with other brands out there regarding transformer issues.

 

Agreed.  My other obsession is Yamaha but have a soft spot for Sansui and I've had no issues with their transformers so it's just the Kiwis and their 'agricultural spec' gear

[Al.M]

Like many in our early formative hifi days, still have a soft spot for vintage gear we have had. For me explored the Luxman range like 1970-80s model 507x amps could be found for $120-200 great sound, also L30, L80, L58A, L510, L480, R3045 and R2040 receivers. Also, Accuphase 202, 204 and 303, Quad 303 preamp and matching 45 power amp.

 

In the 1990s I came across the sub $2000 amps competing at the time such as the highly reviewed and popular Audiolab 8000A ($300 used, $1700 rrp) that was clearly much better sounding in terms of a modern sound presentation than most of the above vintage amps except the Luxman 507x on par, which got me thinking differently. Around this era there was healthy competition among brands which should be seriously considered if the vintage look isn’t important like Roksan Candy/Caspian and Musical Fidelity A3 and others that are way better sounding than most vintage amps on detailed speakers. Others include various Arcam, Rotel 820 and 920, NAD 3020 giant killer, Pioneer 400x, Sony FA3ES, Cyrus 1 and 2.

 

Heaps of others to consider in the price range with great sound and value across all eras and some with enough bling to match vintage amps like Quad 45 pre and 405 power amp, Vincent 236, Naim 42 and 140 power amp, Metaxis (pic below), Copland, Audiolab 8000c pre and 100w power combos etc

Edited July 22, 2020 by Al.M

[BCHR]

Thanks so much for the replies to everyone. You've given me a great amount of things to consider and digest. I will update with my progress.

[Ian McP]

Not vintage but home grown, well made, well priced, sound excellent and you buy direct from the designer

 

http://www.aksaonline.com/

 

follow various developments here

 

https://www.diyaudio.com/forums/aksa/

 

regards Ian

[surprisetech]

On 20/07/2020 at 8:14 PM, BCHR said:

Hi stereonet.

 

Awesome forum, just signed up this week, very impressed with the community and advice housed here.

 

Background:

 

I use a Marantz NR1508 to power 2x KEF Q350s, a Q250c and a REL Ti5 which is used for TV/Movies and music. 

Music is generally run through bluetooth and spotify, or sometimes through the TV. I have a record player and records but no amp for it (yet)

 

Since I built this system up over the last 2 years, I'm just not getting that excitement you get from listening to your favourite music on a great system. I grew up in a household where music listening was the main activity, we had great gear, Marantz, Musical Fidality, JBLs, Jamo etc. I'm used to music sounding great.

 

This was all pre AV and surround sound, 80's 90's etc. Now I want to build my dream system, which I thought I was doing. However, I'm disappointed so far. Songs I'm familiar with sound cold, a bit flat, or generally lifeless. The only music the system does well is modern electonica/hip hop. I've done lot of research over the last couple of years and learned that AV Receivers are generally not known for producing music with much character or body, and I'm definitely experiencing that now.

 

I have decided my best strategy, is to listen to music through a dedicated hifi amp but still through the Q350s and REL sub. I will achieve this with use of an amp switch box. This gives me a chance to bring my music listening experience back to life with the right choice of dedicated hifi amp. 

 

Question:

 

Can someone please recommend (or even better, sell) me amp I can use for this purpose?

 

Criteria:

 

Sound - must be fantastic, strong, clear, full of character/body, capable with bass, able to handle jazz, rock, punk, soul, electronica, vocals, hip hop, modern production (bass subtlety, sustained bass, soundstage dynamics) etc etc. Hopefully a classic amp that everyone regards as just simply nailing it in terms of sonics. 

 

Aesthetics - 70's, wood panelling, nice interface, bit of a talking piece. I love music and want to feel really good owning this equipment. I'm thinking Yamaha, Sansui, Marantz or similar.

 

Budget - $400 - $800 AUD unless I can be convinced I need to spend more. 

 

Notes - I'm in a mid sized apartment and don't have the volume up loud all the time, but when it is, I want the power there. The Marantz is 50W/ch and it's only been maxed once or twice mainly to push the envelope.

 

Really looking forward to your responses! I'm sure someone will have some great advice for me.

 

Thanks, BCHR.

 

I'm really happy with my NR1508, but I never intended it to power my stereo/front L/R speakers.   It only drives the centre & surrounds.

One of the reasons I chose the 1508 was that it has front L/R pre-out connections, which i have connected to inputs on a separate integrated amp that supports HT bypass.

So the integrated is always powering the main speakers, regardless of the source.  No need for a separate switch box.

2-channel sources are connected directly to the integrated amp.

[BCHR]

5 hours ago, surprisetech said:

I'm really happy with my NR1508, but I never intended it to power my stereo/front L/R speakers.   It only drives the centre & surrounds.

One of the reasons I chose the 1508 was that it has front L/R pre-out connections, which i have connected to inputs on a separate integrated amp that supports HT bypass.

So the integrated is always powering the main speakers, regardless of the source.  No need for a separate switch box.

2-channel sources are connected directly to the integrated amp.

Thanks surprise, I considered this option but it limits my amp choice to new ones with bypass. How do you like your Rotel?

 

 

[surprisetech]

21 hours ago, BCHR said:

Thanks surprise, I considered this option but it limits my amp choice to new ones with bypass. How do you like your Rotel?

 

 

Love it.  It just ticks all the boxes for me.  And there's still good local support available for Rotel.

 

I'm a fan of vintage amps too, I've got Pioneer, Audiolab, Marantz, Yamaha & Rotel units that get rotated through 3 other systems, but I really appreciate the conveniences of the newer amp for the main system.

 

If you can find a Rotel RA-870BX, it can do HT Bypass via its "CD Direct" feature that includes a separate level control. 

I used one in conjunction with a Yamaha DSP-E800 Surround Processer/Amp for a while and it was a great combo. 

You connect the front pre-outs to the CD input and use the level control to set the gain you need.  Once that's done, you only need to select 'CD Direct' for HT use.  (see pic)

It does mean that if you want to connect an actual CD player to the amp, you need to connect it to one of the AUX inputs.  I was using a universal player by then, so it didn't bother me.

The vintage Rotel I have now is the 970BX which doesn't have that feature.

[BCHR]

On 22/07/2020 at 9:49 AM, pete_mac said:

 

 

I've moved towards 80s and 90s Sansuis due to the improved sound quality over the 70s models (in my opinion anyway!) but they often don't receive the same kind of interest or attention as the older Sansuis when people come to visit.  I completely understand why people choose to go down the vintage path for a 'centrepiece' component - partly sound, partly aesthetics, partly the 'feel-good' emotional element that modern gear often does not provide. It's borderline insanity/sickness, but can be hard to shake and often develops into a more serious affliction.

 

 

What 80's and 90's Sansui models do you have pete_? 

[pete_mac]

2 minutes ago, BCHR said:

What 80's and 90's Sansui models do you have pete_? 

 

Far too many, but the ones in current use are:

 

AU-X711 - 1989 (middle amp in pic) and AU-alpha 607MRX - 1995 (right amp in pic)

 

 

 

 

 AU-alpha 907MR (1995)

 

 

 

 

[BCHR]

I've been reading constantly over thew last few days and now I'm starting to think maybe going with a newer amp that has HT bypass will be a better solution for me. Does anyone have any good starting spots to research amps that have HT bypass? A link to a thread on here perhaps? Or just a few amp models I should look at?

 

Thanks!

[BCHR]

16 hours ago, pete_mac said:

AU-alpha 907MR (1995)

 

This thing is beautiful!

[BCHR]

On 23/07/2020 at 1:01 PM, surprisetech said:

One of the reasons I chose the 1508 was that it has front L/R pre-out connections, which i have connected to inputs on a separate integrated amp that supports HT bypass.

Im starting to come around to this thinking. 

[sloper]

Pete l am drooling.

 

regards Bruce

[surprisetech]

On 25/07/2020 at 11:38 AM, BCHR said:

I've been reading constantly over thew last few days and now I'm starting to think maybe going with a newer amp that has HT bypass will be a better solution for me. Does anyone have any good starting spots to research amps that have HT bypass? A link to a thread on here perhaps? Or just a few amp models I should look at?

 

Thanks!

This webpage is probably a good starting point.

 

http://www.audiophile.no/en/articles-tests-reviews/item/426-amplifiers-with-processor-input

[Crampoli]

Hi BCHR,

I am one of the vintage amp fans, initially as a result of a lucky garage sale find in Brisbane in the the early 2000s: a Marantz 1070 for $20. When it developed static in the volume pot a few years later, I re-sold it for $50. (Big mistake!) I tried to replace it with a series of cheap 80s and 90s amp from the local Salvos and could not believe how much I longed for the Marantz. When I researched the 70s amps, I began to understand why I liked the sound, now I am addicted. This thread clearly indicates the subjective nature of the old vs. new hi-fi gear debate, and I cannot speak to the new as I primarily collect and listen to 70s amps.

But all that said, there is an argument to be made for the sound of the older amps.

Anyway, there is a beautiful Sansui AU-7700 currently for sale on Gumtree for $995 (not from me). I love the valve-like warmth of the 70s Sansui's myself, (though I also like the Marantz of the same era, they have been less reliable). I have an AU-8800, and if the 7700 is anything like it, I'd happily pay that for it. But again, it is all subjective, and I can imagine there will be dozens of folks who would recommend something more recent that they feel is better for the price. 

Cheers

[Crampoli]

Correction to the above: I have an Au-8500 (NOT AU-8800).

[vintagejapan]

On 20/07/2020 at 10:10 PM, BCHR said:

whoa ok, that's some food for thought. I'm just hesitant to go with a modern amp based on my experience with the Marantz. In my mind now I can't fathom how a modern amp can produce music with any soul. But I hear what you're saying with keeping the speakers era aligned.

That would not necessarily be true, there are many modern amps that will produce music as it is intended but you may need to spend a little more $$.

Matching the right components gives always better results than getting expensive pieces that don't have synergy.