Krell Foundation v Anthem AVM60 - am I mad?

[Mr_Orange]

I own the original Krell Foundation (no 4K pass-through). I recently bought a Shield TV Pro 2019 and have now lost 4K/HDR/DV from various streaming apps compared with the internal TV apps but the Shield experience is so much better, I'm sticking with it.

To bring 4K to the Foundation, I could buy the Krell 4K HDR Switcher but it is ruddy expensive ($1,800) and there are none in Australia. I could also buy an HDFury device which are cheaper.

So far, so good but there are various other niggles with the Krell, such as its crappy IR, flaky ARC, and RC5 socket on the back which seems all but unusable, a fairly ordinary UI and ARES is an unknown quantity.

The SQ is excellent though!

From what I have read, everything on the Anthem AVM60 seems to just work. Also, ARC has been around for much longer and seen more development so is likely to be superior to ARES.

If I moved from the Foundation to the AVM60, would it be an upgrade, a sideways move or would I be sacrificing SQ for usability?

The other frustration is the support for Krell here in Australia. The distributor seems to have authorised one, single dealer in the entire country so product availability, pricing and support is totally monopolised and return-to-base upgrades such as the free DSD upgrade or the cost 4K upgrade were never an option. Anthem has a much more extensive dealer network.

Thank in advance for any thoughts.

[cwt]

2 hours ago, Mr_Orange said:

To bring 4K to the Foundation, I could buy the Krell 4K HDR Switcher but it is ruddy expensive ($1,800) and there are none in Australia. I could also buy an HDFury device which are cheaper.

Noticed your post on avforum  Mr Orange and would also consider a matrix switcher like IWC Dopplel though not a exxy one like a lumagen [ as your not intent on video processing atm] 

Something like this from Keith at ezyhd ; https://www.ezyhd.com.au/shop/6390/

would eliminate the proprietary Krell switcher[ a hd fury would be good if you want to adjust the colour gamut or hdr signal for a projector say] . Yes the AVM60 Arc genesis would be superior as I think ARES uses Parametric EQ though it can be adjusted to cover the low frequencies only thankfully] .

But I read you are happy with 7.1 so you dont need the 60's dolby atmos or dts-x decoding or its 4 ceiling outputs ; I would maybe reconsider this ; object surround is superior to the channel based we have had for ages..The % of 2ch listening is also a factor ; the Krell has a heritage with this if important to you . 

Edited July 19, 2020 by cwt

[Mr_Orange]

4 minutes ago, cwt said:

Something like this from Keith at ezyhd ; https://www.ezyhd.com.au/shop/6390/

Thank you. Just to confirm, I could send the full fat 4K video feed direct to the TV and a 1080p signal with the audio into the Krell using the two HDMI ouputs from the Matrix switcher?

 

6 minutes ago, cwt said:

The % of 2ch listening is also a factor ; the Krell has a heritage with this if important. 

 

I definitely still have a fair %age of 2 channel. All my music is ripped and I currently use a Squeezebox Touch.

 

7 minutes ago, cwt said:

But I read you are happy with 7.1 so you dont need the 60's dolby atmos or dts-x decoding or its 4 ceiling outputs ; I would reconsider this ; object surround is superior to the channel based we have had for ages.

 

I say this because I can't yet foresee the time when I will have a proper, dedicated theatre room so 7.1/5.1 in a faimly media room is sufficient, IMO.

 

8 minutes ago, cwt said:

Yes the AVM60 Arc genesis would be superior as I think ARES uses Parametric EQ though it can be adjusted to cover the low frequencies only thankfully] .

 

Thanks, I suspected it would be.

 

To me it feels as though Krell have moved on from the Foundation and there will be no futher development/upgrades in either hardware or software. I may email the CEO and just ask.... nothing ventured, nothing gained, as they say.

[cwt]

4 minutes ago, Mr_Orange said:

Thank you. Just to confirm, I could send the full fat 4K video feed direct to the TV and a 1080p signal with the audio into the Krell using the two HDMI ouputs from the Matrix switcher?

I definitely still have a fair %age of 2 channel. All my music is ripped and I currently use a Squeezebox Touch.

To me it feels as though Krell have moved on from the Foundation and there will be no futher development/upgrades in either hardware or software. I may email the CEO and just ask.... nothing ventured, nothing gained, as they say.

I would check with Keith but the specs say it reads edids as needed . I used a hdmi 1.4 one with a Emo umc200 once and it switched well . You also have the option of using its sp/dif out for hi bitrate lossy 1.5mbps  dts  audio instead to the Krell.  The thing with hdmi is it will send a blank interval signal for the video as a substitute so the audio can be sent as well . No video signal means no audio as they are intertwined ..

Quote

 It also supports ARC and EDID (AUTO/COPY/ STD) function

Its very hard for smaller concerns like Krell to design a complicated pre pro with hdmi constantly changing . No surprise we see so many brands utilising the Arcam 16ch design now with lots of oem farming out ; like Audio Control; JBL Synthesis with Arcam supplying the software ; a lot of "beta users" 

[Mr_Orange]

On 19/07/2020 at 10:57 PM, Mr_Orange said:

I may email the CEO and just ask.... nothing ventured, nothing gained, as they say.

Well I did and this is what I received:

 

Quote

the Foundation is nearing the end of its platform expansion, not much more we can do inside that box. I cannot discuss our future product plans specifically, however, I can tell you that we will introduce at least one new processor in 2021 that is “up to date” in all aspects.

 

[cwt]

24 minutes ago, Mr_Orange said:

Well I did and this is what I received:

Thats good news ' Krell have always had very good analogue stages in their pre pro's from their 2ch lines . Fingers xed they incorporate a few hdmi 2.1 inputs and its not an upgrade to be sent back to the factory  

[Mr_Orange]

Well, I did it. I chopped in my Foundation and came home with the AVM 60. No regrets so far although I am experiencing what I believe is an HDMI handshake issue with my LGTV/Humax STB.

[cwt]

1 hour ago, Mr_Orange said:

Well, I did it. I chopped in my Foundation and came home with the AVM 60. No regrets so far although I am experiencing what I believe is an HDMI handshake issue with my LGTV/Humax STB.

Good stuff ; congrats . Your hdmi issue may be as simple as a hdmi 2.0  certified cable swap . Your Humax is probably an older hdmi1.4 device which has an earlier hdcp1.4 drm rather than the current hdcp2.2

 

Hdmi is not as backward compatible sometimes as they would have us believe  Make sure your LG for that input is set for SDR and not HDR 

[Mr_Orange]

1 hour ago, cwt said:

Good stuff ; congrats .

Thank you.

 

1 hour ago, cwt said:

Your hdmi issue may be as simple as a hdmi 2.0  certified cable swap . Your Humax is probably an older hdmi1.4 device which has an earlier hdcp1.4 drm rather than the current hdcp2.2

 

I'm using HDMI 2.1 cables throughout.

 

1 hour ago, cwt said:

Hdmi is not as backward compatible sometimes as they would have us believe

I can believe that alright!

 

1 hour ago, cwt said:

Make sure your LG for that input is set for SDR and not HDR

Tricky, because everything is routed through the AVM 60 and so uses the same input on the TV. The only exception is my BDP which has 2 HDMI outs so I send the video from that direct to the TV.

 

This issue I am having is that I get picture but not sound. If I switch off the TV, the sound comes on.  This is why I think it is a handshake issue. The only change is the Foundation out and the AVM 60 in so I have contacted Anthem and am waiting to hear back from them.

 

I've also tried all the obvious tricks of swapping cables, inputs, outputs, etc.

[cwt]

38 minutes ago, Mr_Orange said:

 

This issue I am having is that I get picture but not sound. If I switch off the TV, the sound comes on.  This is why I think it is a handshake issue. The only change is the Foundation out and the AVM 60 in so I have contacted Anthem and am waiting to hear back from them.

 

I've also tried all the obvious tricks of swapping cables, inputs, outputs, etc.

That could be another of hdmi;s tricks . Switch off all  your cec controls [in the lg and anthem ]to disable ARC ; one relies on the other and the proprietary LG version may not be happy

 

You can aso try switching the Humax digital out between lpcm decoding and bitstream ; depending what the anthems expecting [if its not something with edid switching? ] Sounds like something not to obscure..

[Mr_Orange]

39 minutes ago, cwt said:

Switch off all  your cec controls

Already done.

 

40 minutes ago, cwt said:

You can aso try switching the Humax digital out between lpcm decoding and bitstream

 

I'll see what options there are for that. Thanks for the suggestion.

[BugPowderDust]

I had lots of HDMI handshaking issues in my Anthem d2v in the past. Usually it gave issues with colours (pink wash on certain inputs, usually switching from say CD player to say an Apple Mac Mini).

I fixed it by making sure they used the same Video scaler mode even if it was a 2 channel source.

 

not saying it’s the same issue you’re facing but I’d think more laterally about what you’re asking the AVR to do in a signal path direction and see if that yields any leads.

 

alternatively you could look at something like a DR HDMI to manage the EDID with the AVR. 
 

https://www.hdfury.com/product/dr-hdmi-4k/

[betty boop]

if you dont want bugs and issues get the marantz processor, they are rock solid.

 

that said if you want what is likely a simple fix try a hdmi splitter from office works or jaycar

 

https://www.officeworks.com.au/shop/officeworks/p/comsol-2-port-hdmi-splitter-4k2k-cohd1024k

 

this will inadvertently strip any hdmi hdcp and potently solve your issue. if doesnt help your situation, can always return. Both office works and jay car both have good no question asked return policies

[Mr_Orange]

So, I managed to sort this out myself.

 

After numerous factory resets of my television and the Humax STB, I tried once more only this time I stopped the television initialisation process part way through and before it tried to 'set up' the inputs. Lo and behold, I have sound.

 

I don't know what the TV does during the 'input set up' but it appears to have been the cause of the problem.

[Mr_Orange]

I have subsequently discovered that it is the HDMI Ultra HD Deep Colour setting on the television that was preventing the sound from being heard from the Humax. I've run a second HDMI cable from the Anthem to the TV as the Deep Colour setting is per input and all is well.

 

 

[cwt]

6 hours ago, Mr_Orange said:

I have subsequently discovered that it is the HDMI Ultra HD Deep Colour setting on the television that was preventing the sound from being heard from the Humax. I've run a second HDMI cable from the Anthem to the TV as the Deep Colour setting is per input and all is well.

 

 

This is why some ce's in their avr's  like to give the option of choosing per input hdmi 1.4 or hdmi 2.0 hdcp protocols for backward compatibility ; saves extra cables for older input devices 

Quote

Make sure your LG for that input is set for SDR and not HDR

Aah ; gotta love hdmi chipsets  that need switching for high bandwidths ; glad its sorted