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Break/Burn in. Is it Real?


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38 minutes ago, bhobba said:

Yes - Rob Watts, impeccably credentialed in both electronic engineering and applied math, has done tests on this, and demonstrated it to other engineers much to their astonishment.   Rob thought, along with just about any other engineer out there, that distortion below 120db was inaudible.   But during development of his DAVE DAC found distortion well below that was clearly audible, and to the astonishment of other engineers clearly demonstrated it to them:

 

 

Regarding amps there are a number of issues not easy to measure, but amp designers know only too well not to do.   One is using massive amounts of global feedback to reduce distortion to levels that are virtually not even measurable.   Electronics Australia many years ago published such a design - distortion so low even the binding posts used had to be chosen carefully otherwise they produced distortion more than the amp.   But what did it sound like - evidently it sounded like all the life had been sucked out of the music.   The designers described it as sounding significantly cleaner than any other amp they have heard - but others thought that 'cleanliness' was the life sucked out.   These days most amp designers would not do that - they use small amounts of local feedback, that while not having spectacular measured distortion figures, sounded better, to the designer anyway.   The question is why?   I do not think anyone knows for sure, but the general conjecture is there is a time lag for global feedback to take effect - music is always changing, it is not a steady state sine wave used in distortion measurements.   When it changes the feedback does not work instantly - and a small amount of distortion gets through for a moment - but long enough for the ears to be sensitive to it.

 

I must also add that while such audible differences do exist, what you prefer is your choice.   The EA guys thought the ultra low distortion amp sounded clean, others the life had been sucked out of it.   Music reproduction is an illusion - it tries to 'trick' your brain into thinking - this is real.   Both myself and Rawl (sometimes together) have been to many listening sessions, often with extremely experienced audiophiles (and Rawl is too modest to say this - but he is in that category - I would not describe myself in that category yet, though I have heard quite a lot of audio gear over the years).   One must always listen to audio gear before purchasing.   At the moment Rawl has my Chord TT2 and M-Scaler.  I heave heard it, and directly driving speakers it is overall the best DAC I have yet heard - even beating a Gradinote I also own.   As an aside good thing because the interface to drive the Gradinote IMHO is atrocious - but that is another story.   Rawl prefers it without the M-Scaler and driving a little SET amp he has.   He describes direct connecting and the M-Scaler as making things sound a bit 'cold'.   Because of Covid I have not been on over to Rawls place to hear it on his system so cant say what I think - except as I said with the M-Scaler and direct connected it is the best I have heard, but on another system and not compared to a small SET.   I may still prefer it to the small SET Amp - I do not know untill I hear it - but Rawl and I, while often agreeing on what sounds best, sometimes do not.  And I have to say as my experience has grown, some things I once disagreed with Rawl about I now agree - not all - but some.   Nor is their any issue with this - it is just what personally 'tricks' you better.

 

Bottom line is have a glance at measurements, but do not get too caught up in them - judge for yourself by listening.

 

Thanks

Bill

And not to confuse Noise with Distortion.. two completely different things.

But the Amplifier you're talking about may have been the 20W Class-A amplifier in the May 2007 edition of Silicone Chip Magazine.

 

https://ia800503.us.archive.org/33/items/Silicon_Chip_Magazine_2007-05_May/Silicon_Chip_Magazine_2007-05_May.pdf

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53 minutes ago, Ittaku said:

This question has long since been answered. The low distortion levels only applied to a single frequency at a single power rating. It wasn't the feedback at fault, but the implementation of trying to just fix a number. At normal listening levels everything broke down and distorted up the wazoo in the audible range. Listen to the ex-Hypex engineer's interviews where he expands on this.

 

You could be right - as I said - this was just a conjecture.   Regarding Hypex amps they were really hyped a number of years ago now and someone from WA was kind enough to send one he built over to me to check out against other amps - much more expensive ones.   I will first say - value for money it was unassailable - the Hypex beat everything hands down.   But first up was a test against a top of the line Macintosh.   The Mac - killed it.   Then against a very high quality 300B 8W SET, whose name I forget, I used at the time - again it killed it.   I tried it against others I forget with the same results.   But, as I said, the quality of sound you got out for the money was amazing.    I believe they have undergone a lot of changes since then so I do not know about them now.   I posted what I found on this long thread on the Hypex modules and the designer replied.   He said what I was comparing it against was a very tough test, because they were all well known to be very good sounding amps, but still maintained his amps were more accurate.

 

Thanks

Bill

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47 minutes ago, bob_m_54 said:

And not to confuse Noise with Distortion.. two completely different things.

But the Amplifier you're talking about may have been the 20W Class-A amplifier in the May 2007 edition of Silicone Chip Magazine.

 

https://ia800503.us.archive.org/33/items/Silicon_Chip_Magazine_2007-05_May/Silicon_Chip_Magazine_2007-05_May.pdf

 Could be - my memory is not what it once was.

 

Thanks

Bill

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1 minute ago, bhobba said:

 

You could be right - as I said - this was just a conjecture.   Regarding Hypex amps they were really hyped a number of years ago now and someone from WA was kind enough to send one he built over to me to check out against other amps - much more expensive ones.   I will first say - value for money it was unassailable - the Hypex beat everything hands down.   But first up was a test against a top of the line Macintosh.   The Mac - killed it.   Then against a very high quality 300B 8W SET, whose name I forget, I used at the time - again it killed it.   I tried it against others I forget with the same results.   But, as I said, the quality of sound you got out for the money was amazing.    I believe they have undergone a lot of changes since then so I do not know about them now.   I posted what I found on this long thread on the Hypex modules and the designer replied.   He said what I was comparing it against was a very tough test, because they were all well known to be very good sounding amps, but still maintained his amps were more accurate.

 

I don't disagree. I've been saying for a while that what Putzey's done with class D amplification has killed the affordable range class A/AB by a million miles, and there really is no reason for solid state class A/AB to exist in that range any more. It's only a matter of time before this is so obvious that the marketplace is unrecognisable. Once you get to serious high end gear, or compare them with valve amplification, it's a very different equation.

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4 minutes ago, Ittaku said:

Once you get to serious high end gear, or compare them with valve amplification, it's a very different equation.

Not just hi end.

 

Class D amplifiers are ok to replace gear up to about $2K, depending on brand and implementation of both D and A/B, after which the desirability factor falls off a very sheer cliff.

 

I don't use or like subs, but I am reliably informed that class D amps work well in that situation

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1 hour ago, sir sanders zingmore said:

My kids call it math, Andy. I fear we are the last generation to say it correctly  :)

I do not know about now but when I did my degree in math at the QUT 40 years ago now, we called it applied math as opposed to puerile math they did at the UQ (or was that pure math - like I said my memory is not as good as it once was) ????.  Don't worry - the pure math guys got their own back - it was all good natured - the truth is each requires the other.

 

Thanks

Bill

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2 hours ago, sir sanders zingmore said:

So I've looked and I can't find anything online referring to Rob Watts' credentials in these fields. Do you have a link that shows them?

 

I did read somewhere he studied both electronics and math at a top UK university - but I too tried to find it and couldn't.   I found a lot of references like the following where his ideas started at university eg 

https://www.head-fi.org/threads/chord-electronics-dave.766517/page-478

 

Thanks

Bill

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37 minutes ago, rantan said:

Class D amplifiers are ok to replace gear up to about $2K, depending on brand and implementation of both D and A/B, after which the desirability factor falls off a very sheer cliff.

 

Actually the best amp I have heard is no amp - its the DAC output stage of the Chord TT2 - it produces 18W.   But while digital it runs at 5bit 104 Mhz.   But since some like verification of these sort of claims I found the following:

https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/chord-upsampling.9109/

 

I honestly believe it is the future - but they do need to get the power up a bit - I would prefer 50W - although on the speaker I used it on 18w worked fine.   But when reproducing HT I have found they wind the dialogue volume down so the booms and bangs have better impact.   Interestingly on my system with 89db speakers into 500w Arions and using the volume control on my Direct Stream which is in .5 db increments I listen to music at between 40-50, normal HT at about 60, but some movies etc I have to wind up to 80.   That corresponds to about 1W normally, 5 watts for normal HT, but 50w when I wind it up to 80.   I just hope everything works out ok when I get the TT2 into my system.

 

Thanks

Bill

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50 minutes ago, rantan said:

 

I don't use or like subs, but I am reliably informed that class D amps work well in that situation

 

 

My 800w Hypex amps work superbly, driving my subs.  :thumb: (All subs need is grunt - not 'finesse'!  :) )

 

And if you don't use them, r ... you don't know what you're missing!  xD

 

51 minutes ago, bhobba said:

I do not know about now but when I did my degree in math at the QUT 40 years ago now, we called it applied math as opposed to puerile math they did at the UQ (or was that pure math - like I said my memory is not as good as it once was) ????.  Don't worry - the pure math guys got their own back - it was all good natured - the truth is each requires the other.

 

Thanks

Bill

 

When I did my 1st degree, from '66 to '69 ... it was maths.  Both pure and applied.  :)  IMO, the Yanquis are the cause of the degradation of the English we use.  :(

 

Andy

 

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7 hours ago, robnplunder said:

Ok.  So, now I had full 200 hours "burn-in" with my R8.   In the last 100 hours, details, separation, sound stage have improved noticeably.   Is it in my head or did other owners notice similar improvements?  

I believe it mostly "In Your Head" as your brain adjusts to the new sound signature.

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10 minutes ago, mneveux said:

I believe it mostly "In Your Head" as your brain adjusts to the new sound signature.

 

Yes, I think there is a lot of truth in that. This is, IMO, the reason people believe cables need x time to 'break in' (which is nonsense), when all that is happening is that they have gotten used to the different sound (if there is an audible difference to get used to).

 

HST, tubes may be an exception of sorts. There is no doubt that tubes change physically as they get older (or they would never wear out). It's possible/probable that these physical changes cause a change in the way they amplify the signal. And that may result in a difference to the sound. Of course, 'different' does not equate with 'better' so I guess it is possible that the sound could also become worse as the tube ages (although one would hope that this wouldn't be the case after just a few hundred hours). Tubes are probably like the human body: as it ages, it improves, up to a certain point, from where it starts to deteriorate until, eventually, it ceases to function at all. So maybe tubes do need to 'break in' for 100 hours or so - I don't know.

 

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22 minutes ago, mneveux said:

I believe it mostly "In Your Head" as your brain adjusts to the new sound signature.

 

Also, when people introduce new hardware into their systems, they listen really, really hard to see if they can hear differences. This exceptional focus often causes them to 'hear things they never heard before', and many reports include comments along those lines (eg, "I swear I never heard that backsinger before, even though I have played this track 100s of times").

 

The reality is that even if you haven't changed a thing, and you listen with that intense focus, you will always hear things in the music you believe you have never heard before!

 

 

 

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Burn in is a debate that will go on forever on forums. All one needs to do is Google the term to see forum after forum discussing it.

 

REL calls it "break in" rather than "burn in", and have an entire page devoted to how to do it with their products https://rel.net/blog/2018-09-28/how-to/how-to-break-in-a-subwoofer/ (I haven't done this with my T/9x as of yet.).

 

Paul McGowan, of PS Audio, has a lot of say on the subject. He says burn in is true, and that the naysayers who claim it is the person, not the equipment, that "burns in" are in the wrong. He cites examples from his products, that they've tested. 

 

 

My own view, is that yes, burn in is real. It isn't in our heads, but I'm no audiophile, or expert. I just like the sound, the music. I haven't even rolled any tubes yet, as I'm patient, and enjoy the current sound from my R8.

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6 hours ago, Haecate said:

Burn in is a debate that will go on forever on forums. All one needs to do is Google the term to see forum after forum discussing it.

 

REL calls it "break in" rather than "burn in", and have an entire page devoted to how to do it with their products https://rel.net/blog/2018-09-28/how-to/how-to-break-in-a-subwoofer/ (I haven't done this with my T/9x as of yet.).

 

Paul McGowan, of PS Audio, has a lot of say on the subject. He says burn in is true, and that the naysayers who claim it is the person, not the equipment, that "burns in" are in the wrong. He cites examples from his products, that they've tested. 

 

 

My own view, is that yes, burn in is real. It isn't in our heads, but I'm no audiophile, or expert. I just like the sound, the music. I haven't even rolled any tubes yet, as I'm patient, and enjoy the current sound from my R8.

I've definitely found that tubes change their sonic quality after some hours of playing. Amps and speakers also need some burn in. Woofers, in particular, require a bit of movement to loosen up the piston effect. 

 

In my listening experience some products can be a bit gritty and harsh when brand new, but lose that over a  period of time.

 

I'm not convinced that cables need burn in time, but always happy to see convincing evidence. I've not heard any difference if I connect cables in the opposite direction to the indications on them, so burn in for cables might be more psychology than reality.

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12 hours ago, mneveux said:

I believe it mostly "In Your Head" as your brain adjusts to the new sound signature.

 

Ok, I will accept that.  I wasn't so sure since I couldn't A/B test 100 hours vs 200 hours old amp sound.

 

 

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5 hours ago, Gelert said:

I took you advice, Zed, and signed up with a streamer. I went with Tidal as it has MQA, which is compatible with my DAC. I've been spending the past few months finding new music, and download at least one album per day - sometimes up to a dozen. If I was buying LPs or CDs there's no way I would purchase so much music on spec.

 

Having the ability to listen to sample tracks before deciding was why I liked Presto music, but streaming is much easier and cheaper in the long run.

 

I also did the audiophile bit and bought matched NOS Electro-Harmonix EL34s. Wasn't happy with the PsVane EL34s, but the EHs are a different beast altogether. Much more musical. I had preferred KT88s on UL, but find the EL34s on Triode are far more pleasing to my ears.

 

I'm now more into the music, which I listen to for around 2-3 hours per day (I'm retired). Finding something new to listen to is much more fun. I also take note of music used by Steve Guttenberg, and Randy the Cheap Audio Man - they have interesting tastes. 

Cheapaudioman is super entertaining. I like his practical viewpoint also.. Would love to see him try this amp WITH good 6sl7s since no reviewers  have done that yet it seems 

 

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20 hours ago, Haecate said:

 

Paul McGowan, of PS Audio, has a lot of say on the subject. He says burn in is true, and that the naysayers who claim it is the person, not the equipment, that "burns in" are in the wrong. He cites examples from his products, that they've tested.

 

I don't ever really trust a salesman. ;)

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5 hours ago, Zed Zed said:

 

I don't ever really trust a salesman. ;)

 

Yes, Paul McGowan owns an audio company, and he is a salesman of sorts (although I'm not sure if PS Audio requires any selling of their products as their reputation is high, but sure... he is a salesman selling his wares). And, the folks at REL, they are also salesmen.

 

Here's another salesman I suppose - iFi Zen - insisting their products require “At least 1 week running 24/7 and as per any normal amplifier it certainly requires an audio signal to be run through it to break-in. We use components from AMR machines which are high-end amplifiers and thus require burning in to sound better.” https://ifi-audio.com/faqs/how-long-should-i-burn-in-this-for/

 

I have an iFi Zen phono preamp, and haven't noticed any changes over time; I have replaced the stylus on my Technics, but that's it. 

 

Jim at ValvesnMore said he's not sure about burn in, although I do believe he burns in the tubes he sells to us. I'm not certain of that, but I seem to recall him saying so in one of his excellent videos.

 

That said, despite all four companies being salesmen, I'm at a loss to understand how them insisting burn in is required for their products helps sell more products. 

 

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5 minutes ago, Haecate said:

 

Yes, Paul McGowan owns an audio company, and he is a salesman of sorts (although I'm not sure if PS Audio requires any selling of their products as their reputation is high, but sure... he is a salesman selling his wares). And, the folks at REL, they are also salesmen.

 

Here's another salesman I suppose - iFi Zen - insisting their products require “At least 1 week running 24/7 and as per any normal amplifier it certainly requires an audio signal to be run through it to break-in. We use components from AMR machines which are high-end amplifiers and thus require burning in to sound better.” https://ifi-audio.com/faqs/how-long-should-i-burn-in-this-for/

 

I have an iFi Zen phono preamp, and haven't noticed any changes over time; I have replaced the stylus on my Technics, but that's it. 

 

Jim at ValvesnMore said he's not sure about burn in, although I do believe he burns in the tubes he sells to us. I'm not certain of that, but I seem to recall him saying so in one of his excellent videos.

 

That said, despite all four companies being salesmen, I'm at a loss to understand how them insisting burn in is required for their products helps sell more products. 

 

You keep waiting for the "burn-in" to happen and before you know it, it is too late to return the item.

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3 hours ago, mneveux said:

You keep waiting for the "burn-in" to happen and before you know it, it is too late to return the item.

 

That's their sales philosophy? No, I don't believe that for a minute: REL takes returns long after their break in period is over, as does PS Audio. 

 

REL's break in, according to them, takes less than 24 hours.

 

PS Audio states they break in their products BEFORE they sell them.

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