New 4K laser projectors from Sony or JVC. When?

[Mobe1969]

52 minutes ago, wooferocau said:

I have madVR HTPC, Envy Extreme and a Lumagen 4242 ........i cant say much in regards to the Envy ( NDA ) BUT i can say that its "Ridiculously " Easy to set up ...then its truly "Forget" ..

 

Once again...anyone who thinks that there is little difference from the JVC DTM  to the DTM of the Envy or the Lumagen is really kidding themselves !

Sorry, but the fact it needs such ridiculous power (CPU, VPU & watts), runs on a bloated os, no 3d kind of sours me. I might give it a go if in two years there is no DTM laser projector, but it'd be a lot of physical work to install. Due to its bulk and heat and I'd say noise, I'd put it on the other side of the wall outside the theater room, and run HDMI thru the wall.and mount it on a shelf.. All to get something jvc have proven a projector can do to my satisfaction 

[wooferocau]

Envy is 3d capable... Does NOT run on a "Bloated" OS... Envy is Silent, Heat output is trivial ...takes all of 5min to set up/install....   Envy is FAR FAR more capable of just DTM!! 

[betty boop]

1 hour ago, Mobe1969 said:

Sorry, but the fact it needs such ridiculous power (CPU, VPU & watts), runs on a bloated os, no 3d kind of sours me. I might give it a go if in two years there is no DTM laser projector, but it'd be a lot of physical work to install. Due to its bulk and heat and I'd say noise, I'd put it on the other side of the wall outside the theater room, and run HDMI thru the wall.and mount it on a shelf.. All to get something jvc have proven a projector can do to my satisfaction 

I would be VERY surprised if sony didn't have their own DTM version in the next year ... i know jvc didnt dream it up the with themselves, seemed an evolving thing with panas partnership initially with the player and a mode on the priejector and then built in the projector taking further with it being dynamic frame by frame - scene by scene.  Would think sony get around to it at some stage given their prowess with processing ? . well you'd think they'd have to ! it really is a must do as see it. its a game changer and DTM in my opinion very much belongs in display or projector to condition signal to suit....the particular display or projectors limitations. Doesn't preclude others adding external processing as folks always have. but its a pretty basic thing with uhd i would think that each display or projector does what need with signal to adequately display  

[Mobe1969]

4 minutes ago, betty boop said:

I would be VERY surprised if sony didn't have their own DTM version in the next year ... i know jvc didnt dream it up the with themselves, seemed an evolving thing with panas partnership initially with the player and a mode on the priejector and then built in the projector taking further with it being dynamic frame by frame - scene by scene.  Would think sony get around to it at some stage given their prowess with processing ? . well you'd think they'd have to ! it really is a must do as see it. its a game changer and DTM in my opinion very much belongs in display or projector to condition signal to suit....the particular display or projectors limitations. Doesn't preclude others adding external processing as folks always have. but its a pretty basic thing with uhd i would think that each display or projector does what need with signal to adequately display  

I am a pessimist by nature,  so I wouldn't be surprised if Sony didn't, but I look forward to being pleasantly surprised!

 

My pessimist viewpoint on what jvc and their neverending litany of stupidity will mean they'd release a laser model in an NX chassis, but because they can't help themselves, it will be sold as a model above the nx9, so the will take the idiotic price of the nx9 and add 12k to it. They'll probably round it to say 40k. And in real term, we have a projector that is a light source upgrade to the nx7 and in fiscal cost, about 2k to jvc. So say to the nearest 5k, $15k. But they will charge an extra $30,000. THAT is JVC. 

 

The price difference from the nx7 to nx9 just rubs it in my face why JVC, to be perfectly frank, utterly disgusts me, at a visceral level. Professionally as an engineer and software developer I just see one thing after another, again and again, that is wrong, and it offends me, and I'm disgusted that the real professionals they have working for them that are obviously skilled go along with it. If I was there,I'd leave, and go work for Sony even for minimum wage..  I'd feel honestly bad if I  bought a jvc product. I'm not being hyperbolic. If I had the choice between a 40k jvc DTM laster model vs a non DTM Sony for 32 plus say 13k for a madvr, I would probably go madvr. Or I'd figure a way to do an Oceans 11 heist on their warehouse...

 

Sony on the other hand I have an entire life of owning and using their products and never being disappointed or finding their decisions ridiculous or objectionable.

[betty boop]

18 minutes ago, Mobe1969 said:

I am a pessimist by nature,  so I wouldn't be surprised if Sony didn't, but I look forward to being pleasantly surprised!

only trying to give some hope...

 

18 minutes ago, Mobe1969 said:

My pessimist viewpoint on what jvc and their neverending litany of stupidity will mean they'd release a laser model in an NX chassis, but because they can't help themselves, it will be sold as a model above the nx9, so the will take the idiotic price of the nx9 and add 12k to it. They'll probably round it to say 40k. And in real term, we have a projector that is a light source upgrade to the nx7 and in fiscal cost, about 2k to jvc. So say to the nearest 5k, $15k. But they will charge an extra $30,000. THAT is JVC. 

i understand a post like this given your perspective that have shared more on ...

 

18 minutes ago, Mobe1969 said:

The price difference from the nx7 to nx9 just rubs it in my face why JVC, to be perfectly frank, utterly disgusts me, at a visceral level. Professionally as an engineer and software developer I just see one thing after another, again and again, that is wrong, and it offends me, and I'm disgusted that the real professionals they have working for them that are obviously skilled go along with it. If I was there,I'd leave, and go work for Sony even for minimum wage..  I'd feel honestly bad if I  bought a jvc product. I'm not being hyperbolic. If I had the choice between a 40k jvc DTM laster model vs a non DTM Sony for 32 plus say 13k for a madvr, I would probably go madvr. Or I'd figure a way to do an Oceans 11 heist on their warehouse...

I think you mis understand the jvc nx9, I dont think can reconcile what they have pulled off with pure PQ and contrast through the light engine and 4k notive or fitting in the awesome z1 lens into it for the price nx9 goes for. this is a very serious piece of optics that 4k ? let alone 8k deserves... in any case you lost me on feeling honestly if buying jvc and the jvc employees that need to jump ship  so will leave there ...

 

just cut to the chase and buy a sony and add on DTM ... you know you want to  

 

 

 

[Mobe1969]

18 minutes ago, betty boop said:

 

just cut to the chase and buy a sony and add on DTM ... you know you want to  

I know the result I want. I guess though my feelings on JVC as a company are more or less mirrored with lumagen and madvr. I'd prefer not to send a cent their way. 

[cwt]

1 hour ago, betty boop said:

I would be VERY surprised if sony didn't have their own DTM version in the next year ... i know jvc didnt dream it up the with themselves, seemed an evolving thing with panas partnership initially with the player and a mode on the priejector and then built in the projector taking further with it being dynamic frame by frame - scene by scene.  Would think sony get around to it at some stage given their prowess with processing ? . well you'd think they'd have to ! it really is a must do as see it. its a game changer and DTM in my opinion very much belongs in display or projector to condition signal to suit....the particular display or projectors limitations. Doesn't preclude others adding external processing as folks always have. but its a pretty basic thing with uhd i would think that each display or projector does what need with signal to adequately display  

Or maybe they look at the hd fury dolby vision solution [ which is the value option of all of them] 

https://hdfury.com/enjoy-dynamic-dv-content-from-lldv-source-on-any-hdr10-display/

and conclude the research &development cost isnt worth it ? Will be interesting Al .

Like all the solutions theres a sliding scale of cost /proficiency ; if you want the best ; madvr [in a plug and play form] it will cost..

If I was in the market ; for matters that have been well aired [jvc ; not happy jan] ; I would save some big $ and get a mid level projector with a glass lens [epson]; a sony 800mk2  or oppo and send lldv . I am of course ; cheap ...

Ime surprised nobody has tried it yet 

Something like the envy though to be fair is upgradeable and is more than DTM and that adds value eg Madshi posted '

Quote

 I've just made a new firmware available for our private beta testers which adds:
1) full 3D support (only for 1080p24)
Needs testing to confirm it works reliably. But looks good so far, and it will mean Envy can do full frame packed 3D, after all (!).
2) motion adaptive deinterlacer, using NGU Anti-Alias for interpolation
This will be mostly useful for EU users, I guess, where 1080i50 is still commonly used, e.g. for soccer. Not sure if it will be of any use to USA users? Ric tells me interlaced content has mostly disappeared in USA.

 

[betty boop]

37 minutes ago, Mobe1969 said:

my feelings

I think we are all quite clear on those  

 

19 minutes ago, cwt said:

I am of course ; cheap ...

sorry...but at this point in time cheap and laser projectors dont go hand in hand unless going for an ebay special that goes all out and bang in as quick as you can say "LAZER"  but seriously I know folk who have gone that hdfury and passed it on.... im done with my hd fury flutter early on in the piece....

[IMDave]

25 minutes ago, cwt said:

Or maybe they look at the hd fury dolby vision solution [ which is the value option of all of them] 

https://hdfury.com/enjoy-dynamic-dv-content-from-lldv-source-on-any-hdr10-display/ 

 

Something like the envy though to be fair is upgradeable and is more than DTM and that adds value eg Madshi posted '

 

Having recently gone done the " fake-Dolby Vision"  ( LLDV) route using my Vertex with my Oppo203/ Apple TV & my X7000 I wish I had the $$$$ for an Envy.

Using this "hack" ,the difference between a HDR10 encode and a DV encode of the same movie is subtle at best. I'm yet to experience DTM through a next gen JVC, but other "hackers" are reporting that LLDV is 90% comparable to DTM, so that just confirms to me the law of diminishing returns involved in this hobby.

As for spending $20k+ on a Sony with their "grey" blacks. Forget it.

IF I could convince the CFO it was time for an upgrade, the first $10k would go on an Envy. If there were funds remaining it would go on an NX7. If not, I'd stick with the X7000.

[franin]

I bought the Vertex 2 had it for a week and then sold it. In my case bought it by mistake 

[wooferocau]

7 hours ago, IMDave said:

 

IF I could convince the CFO it was time for an upgrade, the first $10k would go on an Envy. If there were funds remaining it would go on an NX7. If not, I'd stick with the X7000.

I think people "VASTLY" underestimate the Importance  / Value of a High Quality Video Processor such as the Envy or Lumagen.

Every PJ i have used with either Envy or the Lumagen has had substantial improvement...not just with DTM either.

 

I could NOT fathom using my Z1 without either the  Envy  or Lumagen or madVR (HTPC)  .

 

A video procesor is also a Long Term investment......and you can use it with ANY display .

 

The Envy is the definition of "Simplicity" in relation to setup......honestley Mathias ( madshi/madVR)  has done an increadible job in this respect......i cant stress enough just how easy it is to setup and use! Once setup , you basically just ignore it from that point on ...just a matter of turning it on/off along with the rest of your AV gear.

 

A good friend of mine who loves the results that madVR produces , but hates with a passion the idea of the HTPC took one look at the Envy and said  " Iwant one" 

 

 

[xPLAYRZx]

On 03/07/2020 at 8:56 PM, cwt said:

How big do you want the screen xPLAYRZx [ and how relatively important is uhd reproduction for you ?]

Bigger than anything practically available in any other type of display technology.  I currently have a 120" so even a 100" TV would still be too small I think, especially with cropped content.  Adding to that, I just ordered a new 130" screen from Oz Theater Screens so I'll be sticking with front projection for my theater room for the foreseeable future.

 

On 04/07/2020 at 6:36 AM, Mobe1969 said:

Really though, whoever releases the equivalent of the nx7 with laser will have my money.

This is the sweet spot for me at the moment too.  No doubt that if/when this happens, pricing will be disproportionate to the rest of the market. 

 

Some interesting comments regarding additional processors like the Lumagen and Envy.  Satisfying HDR on a projector is something I have almost given up on.  SDR2020 is were it's at for me currently.  Perhaps I'll investigate a 760ES or NX7 + Lumagen or Envy combo as a possible upgrade path.

 

On 03/07/2020 at 8:52 PM, franin said:

Ive had three 760es and one 870es all having issues.

What did you end up doing with these?  Did Sony replace them for you? Do you still have them or swapped for something else?

[franin]

4 minutes ago, xPLAYRZx said:

 

What did you end up doing with these?  Did Sony replace them for you? Do you still have them or swapped for something else?

They swapped them. I went through 3 760es and one 870es. The 870es had optical block issue. It just wasn't meant to be. Though I will say Sony customer service was top notch. How JVC USA treat their customers that's how Sony does in Australia. 

[Mobe1969]

On 04/07/2020 at 6:55 PM, wooferocau said:

Envy is 3d capable... Does NOT run on a "Bloated" OS... Envy is Silent, Heat output is trivial ...takes all of 5min to set up/install....   Envy is FAR FAR more capable of just DTM!! 

Ah right so they managed to add 3D. That is good.

 

So what OS is the MadVR Envy running on? So it isn't running on Windows like the MadVR software does?

[betty boop]

14 hours ago, xPLAYRZx said:

Some interesting comments regarding additional processors like the Lumagen and Envy.  Satisfying HDR on a projector is something I have almost given up on.  SDR2020 is were it's at for me currently.  Perhaps I'll investigate a 760ES or NX7 + Lumagen or Envy combo as a possible upgrade path.

thats very unfortunate that is the case for you and SDR 2020 as limitation absolutely doesnt need to be way it is RIGHT now. the jvc NX7 works superbly with full support for 4k uhd and the standard Dynamic tone mapping in frame by frame or scene by scene analysis it does, if wanting to go that way... set forget...nothing to do, title after title thrown at it back catalog to current that have been putting through since launch of firmware last year. certainly no harm adding lumagen if have the cash to splurge and want to do, but it is not a must as will find most owners n5/7/9will attest given how good the standard DTM is....

 

the other side of updating from what have now is benefit wcg, and full bandwidth beyond 10gbps chipset which  streaming, gaming take advantage of, plus the better contrast....for dynamic range...

[betty boop]

14 hours ago, xPLAYRZx said:

This is the sweet spot for me at the moment too.  No doubt that if/when this happens, pricing will be disproportionate to the rest of the market. 

tend to get what pay for.... can't expect manufacturers to bring something new out and invest in the move and not expect them to recoup the R&D and significant effort and risk..

[Satanica]

On 04/07/2020 at 3:42 PM, Mobe1969 said:

Regards madvr and lumagen, don't get me started. If it was just a matter of paying for it, fine. But these devices are idiotically complicated to set up and configure for the one feature I'm interested in. DTM. Madvr is bloated power mad, and requires overpowered, loud, hot computer equipment running on a bloated fat operating system. And it can't even handle 3D.

My HTPC running madVR is neither hot or loud but you've got to pick your components well for a quiet PC.

Doing dynamic tone-mapping 4K I do not hear it.

Oh and it can do 3D.

Including a UHD friendly drive with an i7 processor and an AMD 5700 XT video card it cost about $3200 purchased at the end of last year.

I can appreciate madVR on a HTPC it is not easy to set up but once set up you can save your profile.

I'd gladly share my profile file with anyone who wanted it; it would make a decent starting point at least.

Edited July 6, 2020 by Satanica

[xPLAYRZx]

5 hours ago, betty boop said:

he other side of updating from what have now is benefit wcg, and full bandwidth beyond 10gbps chipset which  streaming, gaming take advantage of, plus the better contrast....for dynamic range...

Full bandwidth HDMI (18 Gbps) is probably one of the biggest attractions for me as I spend a good amount of time gaming on my setup.  With the release of new gen consoles (Xbox Series X and PS5) by years end, it has given me some additional motivation to revisit my display capabilities, thus part of my interest in any new releases from Sony or JVC.  

 

Not sure how DTM on current JVC's compares to the static mapping from Panasonic's UB9000, but if the results are anything like that... well lets just say I find it underwhelming at best.  Don't get me wrong, it's better than nothing but really just highlights to me how difficult it is to get a good HDR experience from projectors.  I adopted 4K early on in the piece, and through all the changes and attempts to improve HDR on projectors, all the different devices, the net result has always left me asking myself ...   "is that it?".  I have OLED and QLED displays that as you would expect are excellent for HDR.  Yes, I'm well aware that these are completely different display technologies but it does make me question if it's worth chasing.  

 

I'm certainly prepared to continue to invest in my system for a better quality image (contrast, colour, brightness, sharpness, etc) but I really do question if HDR is part the equation for me, specifically in a projection setup.  How many members can genuinely say they are impressed with the HDR performance on their projector setup?  If so, what are you running?

[betty boop]

3 hours ago, xPLAYRZx said:

Full bandwidth HDMI (18 Gbps) is probably one of the biggest attractions for me as I spend a good amount of time gaming on my setup.  With the release of new gen consoles (Xbox Series X and PS5) by years end, it has given me some additional motivation to revisit my display capabilities, thus part of my interest in any new releases from Sony or JVC.  

Indeed in early days of 4K uhd bandwidth was hardly issue, but that’s changed, gaming streaming heck even the odd disc  is needing full bandwidth so well worth having 

 

3 hours ago, xPLAYRZx said:

Not sure how DTM on current JVC's compares to the static mapping from Panasonic's UB9000, but if the results are anything like that... well lets just say I find it underwhelming at best.  Don't get me wrong, it's better than nothing but really just highlights to me how difficult it is to get a good HDR experience from projectors.  I adopted 4K early on in the piece, and through all the changes and attempts to improve HDR on projectors, all the different devices, the net result has always left me asking myself ...   "is that it?".  I have OLED and QLED displays that as you would expect are excellent for HDR.  Yes, I'm well aware that these are completely different display technologies but it does make me question if it's worth chasing.  

I have the pana  ub9000 it just reads the static data on disc Which does not change over whole title and often flagged incorrectly...it’s better than not picking the static data as a clue ...but this is not tone mapping as jvc which Is dynamic tone mapping in frame by frame, scene by scene...which is why such a big deal ...as Dtm does work set once forget ..lt is not in my opinion a problem with hdr and projectors  . with jvc dtm you switch off static tone mapping on pana ub9000 and means I can enjoy dynamic tone mapping off all sources for uhd hdr on the jvc... and it works seamlessly no matter source be it panaub9000, the very excellent oppo 205, appletv4k or Xbox oneX that are all sources I have and with all these it is just been seamless set forget...as this stuff should be so can just sit back enjoy 

 

3 hours ago, xPLAYRZx said:

 

I'm certainly prepared to continue to invest in my system for a better quality image (contrast, colour, brightness, sharpness, etc) but I really do question if HDR is part the equation for me, specifically in a projection setup.  How many members can genuinely say they are impressed with the HDR performance on their projector setup?  If so, what are you running?

HDR and wcg are both well worth chasing in my opinion... as pretty important aspects of picture just as much as detail... 

 

I am genuinely impressed in whole package of uhd ...hdr, wcg and more detail 4K offers... it is a whole package..They all work together to deliver the joys of uhd ....I’d feel robbed to miss out on any of these elements...I am running a n7 jvc. A key factor with HDR is luminance it needs. If can get 30fl/100 nits for HDR there are definite gains to be had with hdr over the 12-14fl of sdr. Kris deering with allhis calibrations has done, has stated anything above 22fl and high setting on jvc dtm will achieve good benefit with hdr  

[Mobe1969]

Sweet! Some news!

 

https://pro.sony/ue_US/products/laser-projectors/vpl-gtz380

 

Seems to indicate DTM. Plus hdr10+.

 

I wonder what the price will be comparable to.

 

I think looking at specs will be too powerful for my small room though.

Edited July 29, 2020 by Mobe1969

[wooferocau]

1 hour ago, Mobe1969 said:

Sweet! Some news!

 

https://pro.sony/ue_US/products/laser-projectors/vpl-gtz380

 

Seems to indicate DTM. Plus hdr10+.

 

I wonder what the price will be comparable to.

 

I think looking at specs will be too powerful for my small room though.

From what i heard its in excess of AUD $80K... 

[betty boop]

Looks pro thing ... and nothing from Sony going to be cheap when consider their “budget” 270es is a $8k machine !

[Mobe1969]

22 hours ago, wooferocau said:

From what i heard its in excess of AUD $80K... 

Ouch. Yeah it does indicate large venue.

 

But it is a lot of new tech, so hopefully domestic models to follow?

 

Ah gee I just with JVC would just end the market by bringing an equivalent of the 760 or 870 with laser, same chassis as the lamp models, DTM, and glass... It would be game over...

[cwt]

9 hours ago, Mobe1969 said:

But it is a lot of new tech, so hopefully domestic models to follow?

Ah gee I just with JVC would just end the market by bringing an equivalent of the 760 or 870 with laser, same chassis as the lamp models, DTM, and glass... It would be game over...

Would be good ; I had hopes for a domestic version of the BENQ LK990 by now with all the hdr tone mapping etc and its great NITS ; but nought nowhere 

Meanwhile large led tvs are getting progressively cheaper so that may shake a few up hopefully..

[Mobe1969]

Yeah. To be honest I'd consider a panel TV the same size as my screen (115") but I just have never been comfortable with the obsession with nits. Not to mention the absence of 3D. Something EVERY panel TV could support with firmware and an optional dongle (like JVC does). If a projector is the only way I'll get 3d, a panel TV will never be in my home cinema.