New 4K laser projectors from Sony or JVC. When?

[xPLAYRZx]

I'm considering the move up to one of Sony laser projectors (currently have 520es) but the VPL-VW760ES is already a few years old and I'm not convinced the VPL-VW870ES (or JVC Z1) are worth the extra coin.  I also believe all these models are essentially 'first gen' in regards to laser light source, so any new models may bring some additional improvements?  Does anyone have insight into when or if Sony (or JVC) plan to release new laser models into the market in 2020 or 2021?

 

I did read some speculation based on Sony's exit from the digital cinema market (see https://www.digitalcinemareport.com/news/sony-stop-manufacturing-digital-cinema-projectors) they may no longer be producing projectors for the home cinema market either.  Development of the SXRD technology is rumored to be all but dead.  If this is true, will this leave JVC as the only go to brand for premium home cinema projectors?

[betty boop]

oh gee... I hope sony is not out for the count for home theatre projectors, as much as i dont own one... (for a few reasons) I for one do think competition is important. and it seems a 2 horse race(beyond mid range projectors) between jvc and sony in the home theatre projectors at the present.

 

JVC are actually from my understanding quite small. they aren't a mass market projector company like epson. so hence i guess they get away with more niche type things 

 

laser are so extra ordinarly expensive though and as long as remains small volume high end niche its going to stay that way i suspect. 

 

the 760es is an extra ordinary effort to bring the size of laser more in keeping for the home and price so much more affordable (if can use the term in this segment) vs say the jvc z1 which is a monster and severely expensive ! 

 

covid am not sure helps and the resulting collapse economically... in that am not sure theres anything to speak off coming new form the shows this year. in fact am pretty sure cedia in the us is cancelled.... CES next year ? 

 

am pretty sure the new chassis of the N series of the JVC is the size it is to make it a laser driven model... so perhaps we will see something from jvc in that vein.

 

the other is epson. we had some discussion recently on this and it is a shame epson has forgotten about its laser consumer model... never bothered to update for 4k or even with current hdmi.... shame and a pity...

 

all that said is laser really needed for most folk ? ive generally owned projectors 3-4 years and then turned over as tech seems to move on with new generations at that sort of cycle. however in all the years of owning some 5 projectors ive never had to change lamps ? my current jvc came with a spare lamp and they have a 4500 hour life... with folks getting 3000-4000 hours with not much drop off to speak off ,  not sure i will be looking to buy a lamp in a lot of years. even if watch a 5 movies a week which is a lot ! im going to get 8 years out of a lamp... lets say if its even 5 years ! with my two lamps be 10 years before worrying about a lamp and thats with some extreme use ! as a reality check .... i might only on average watch 2-3 movies a week at most ... so in reality i'm gong to see 10 years out A lamp... 20 years with my two... can't see have the same projector i have now in 20 years ? surely tech moved on long prior to necessitate an upgrade meaning i move on .... 

[xPLAYRZx]

It's been unusual not seeing anything, even a preview or roadmap for new models in this space from either Sony or JVC, both of which usually have a 2 year product cycles.  Both must be due for something soon, surely?  I can certainly understand the impact of COVID-19 on R&D and manufacturing of these products but wouldn't have though it would keep the marketing departments away.

 

Without sounding like a sales brochure, laser technology has many benefits over traditional lamps based light sources beyond replacement hours.  For the average person watching a movie every other week, is the current premium worth it?  No, probably not, but I do see 'value' in the benefits on offer from laser including the 20,000 hour life of the light source as I use mine approx 2000 hours a year so have always needed to replace lamps.  IMO laser light sources will be the future for projectors with the lamp going the way of the dodo for all but the very cheapest models.

 

Hopefully you're right about JVC bringing a laser model based on the N series to market soon although I would love to see something new from Sony.  Just hope we're not waiting another 12+ months.  Fingers crossed.

[betty boop]

31 minutes ago, xPLAYRZx said:

It's been unusual not seeing anything, even a preview or roadmap for new models in this space from either Sony or JVC, both of which usually have a 2 year product cycles.  Both must be due for something soon, surely?  I can certainly understand the impact of COVID-19 on R&D and manufacturing of these products but wouldn't have though it would keep the marketing departments away.

never been 2 year product cycles. perhaps in mild refreshes but not two years for a complete model line. also being Japanese companies neither will do complete step changes in such a short time it will always be incremental, a big step at times but never be every 2 years no company can sustain that

 

31 minutes ago, xPLAYRZx said:

Without sounding like a sales brochure, laser technology has many benefits over traditional lamps based light sources beyond replacement hours.  For the average person watching a movie every other week, is the current premium worth it?  No, probably not, but I do see 'value' in the benefits on offer from laser including the 20,000 hour life of the light source as I use mine approx 2000 hours a year so have always needed to replace lamps.  IMO laser light sources will be the future for projectors with the lamp going the way of the dodo for all but the very cheapest models.

aware of benefits of laser, but bulbs are achieving pretty standout results at a far lower cost which i guess is a consideration. re high hours even at $1000 lamps 20000 hours is only 4 lamps $4000 (most folk in such high use will buy OEM bulbs at a tiny fraction) and so laser will have to drop a LOT in price to justify on lamp changes.  just given the sheer cost I suspect it will stay in the top line arena.... for a while yet. not to suggest i dont see future with laser. just the mercury vapour aspect for safety is concern enough for me. a lamp blowing means release of all that vapour....

 

31 minutes ago, xPLAYRZx said:

Hopefully you're right about JVC bringing a laser model based on the N series to market soon although I would love to see something new from Sony.  Just hope we're not waiting another 12+ months.  Fingers crossed.

as much as ai wish, just given current climate... I'm sorry to say suspect it will be 12+ months... before we even hear something. for you i'd hope its sooner though. I agree its been very slow progress in this realm... I can only hope not only jvc with the new form factor squeeze a laser in for more affordable and smaller option to the z1, but also sony follow in a more affordable lower model from the 760es. also we can only hope epson get off their butts and get back to their laser model they once did, updating it for current times. the more competition the better  

[TP1]

2 hours ago, xPLAYRZx said:

they may no longer be producing projectors for the home cinema market either.

 

Applies to commercial theatres only.  

 

As far as laser light engines go - I  can tell you its a much better experience than with globes.  Sony and JVC  do charge a premium for 4K  laser  at the moment although things will probably change in the future. 

[TP1]

1 hour ago, xPLAYRZx said:

Both must be due for something soon, surely?

 

4K TV manufacturers bring out new models every year even though the changes are often minuscule and mostly not related to hardware.  There is more competition in the TV market and the pressure is always on for change.   Sony had the genuine 4k projector market to itself for years and  JVC's entry to that market segment now means  that there is more direct competition at similar price points. .  However,  the projector  industry might be slow to update models at times but this doesn't mean that is the end of it.  In my case, Sony has made quite dramatic upgrades to existing  760ES projectors  more than 12 months after their introduction .  JVC has also done significant upgrades to its lineup.  You don't see  enhancements of that magnitude happening with TV's - they are more likely to be in the form of new models.

 

 

 

 

[cwt]

2 hours ago, xPLAYRZx said:

It's been unusual not seeing anything, even a preview or roadmap for new models in this space from either Sony or JVC, both of which usually have a 2 year product cycles.  Both must be due for something soon, surely?  I can certainly understand the impact of COVID-19 on R&D and manufacturing of these products but wouldn't have though it would keep the marketing departments away.

I would hopefully separate the cinema divisions [and the high brightness phosphor issues and exxy replacement globe issues mentioned in your link ] with whats happening in the down market pro divisions . Found this encouraging in the current covid environment  ;

 https://pro.sony/en_CA/press/business-projector-expansion-2020

Another consideration for those who have been watching another nitch market is the gradual increase in size of large uhd tvs [100" is now available for less than an 760es/870es ] ; this trend will only increase [ and uhd playback is customised for hi nit playback] . A good cheap laser projector is needed for larger screens or better advertising of a projectors advantages [at least for rec709]  

[xPLAYRZx]

13 hours ago, betty boop said:

never been 2 year product cycles. perhaps in mild refreshes but not two years for a complete model line. also being Japanese companies neither will do complete step changes in such a short time it will always be incremental, a big step at times but never be every 2 years no company can sustain that

Perhaps my understanding of product cycle differs, but if I look at Sony's model lineup over the past 5 or so years with my current device it looks to be updated circa those time frames.  

E.g

VPL-VW500ES (2013)

VPL-VW520ES (2015)

VPL-VW550ES (2016)

VPL-VW570ES (2018)

 

4 models in 5 years.... so keeping with that theme, my assumption was that if the VPL-VW760ES was released back in 2017 it must me due for an update, or at least another model to expand the laser lineup.  I am aware that Sony made some significant improvements to the 760 via firmware, and perhaps this model does have even more to give via future software changes.  More to the point, the fact that Sony hasn't released any information or roadmap for the VW series of home theater projectors, together with the withdrawal from the commercial cinema scene doesn't give me much confidence.

 

12 hours ago, TP1 said:

Applies to commercial theatres only.

The linked article only references commercial applications, yes, but there must be a knock-on effect to the home market.  The technology used for home devices is developed here.  Issues with Sony's LCoS technology (SXRD) is well documented and goes back many years and doesn't only impact commercial devices, it's simply accelerated in that application and environment.   (e.g https://www.avsforum.com/forum/24-digital-hi-end-projectors-3-000-usd-msrp/2247282-sony-sxrd-degradation-thread-effects-all-current-sony-sxrd-1080p-4k-panels.html)

 

11 hours ago, cwt said:

Found this encouraging in the current covid environment  ;

 https://pro.sony/en_CA/press/business-projector-expansion-2020

  All of those new models use 3LCD, which makes sense for their target market.  Probably not great for home cinema.  Agreed that when large displays (I'd want to see 120"+) become competitively positioned against projectors it will be a game changer.

 

I feel like some of my comments may seem like I'm being negative toward Sony, but I'm actually a huge fan.  I've had (and have) many of their display devices, all of which have been excellent.  I want to see new models being developed, specifically new laser projectors for home cinema.  I would pull the trigger on a 760ES (or replacement) today, but with some of the information and discussions surfacing across the internet (the source of truth :P) I'm starting to get cold feet. 

 

If I'm looking at JVC's current offerings.... well... if you want laser (which I do) its only the Z1 on offer, and I'm not sold.  It's now over 4 years old and IMO is overpriced and bested by its lamp based stablemates.  Nothing in the way of updated model lines here either.  So I wait.

[betty boop]

7 minutes ago, xPLAYRZx said:

Perhaps my understanding of product cycle differs, but if I look at Sony's model lineup over the past 5 or so years with my current device it looks to be updated circa those time frames.  

E.g

VPL-VW500ES (2013)

VPL-VW520ES (2015)

VPL-VW550ES (2016)

VPL-VW570ES (2018)

 

4 models in 5 years.... so keeping with that theme, my assumption was that if the VPL-VW760ES was released back in 2017 it must me due for an update, or at least another model to expand the laser lineup.  I am aware that Sony made some significant improvements to the 760 via firmware, and perhaps this model does have even more to give via future software changes.  More to the point, the fact that Sony hasn't released any information or roadmap for the VW series of home theater projectors, together with the withdrawal from the commercial cinema scene doesn't give me much confidence.

this isn't 4 models in 5 years.. 500-520es-550es were all iterative change. the real new model was the 500ES and then the 570es with new chasis etc.  thats 5 years between them which is more typical. its not that different to other makers. epson for instance their 9000 series went for donkeys.. and they really added shift to same dark chip basis of the 9000 to create the 9400 but with new chasis hdmi chipset etc so a new model in essesense. jvc did same thing with their xx000 series that was e-shift on previous gen basis to make a new model. still quite iterative... the new gen of JVC in N series is quite a significant change as new model and suspect as basis take them through some years whether with lamp or adding laser... time will tell.

 

re the 760es like jvc it makes far more sense to improve where can via software etc....trully new model releases cost a lot to makers ...and doesnt really make a lot of sense unless truly a new model. id expect iterative changes to this model until there is something a significant step up for a new model release.

 

as to any road maps its difficult i would suggest in these times, but yes shuttering down parts of business probably doesnt give lot of confidence and sony is well known for doing some good things and then just walking away from entire segments... i hope not though as i mentioned the segment needs the competition...

17 minutes ago, xPLAYRZx said:

If I'm looking at JVC's current offerings.... well... if you want laser (which I do) its only the Z1 on offer, and I'm not sold.  It's now over 4 years old and IMO is overpriced and bested by its lamp based stablemates.  Nothing in the way of updated model lines here either.  So I wait.

I know heart seems to be set on laser, but honestly if havent already do check out some lamp models. i am truly astounded what is being achieved. i for one see no sense in sitting aside waiting..not while can keep enjoying. if something comes it comes but sitting on hands doesnt achieve anything. 

[cwt]

1 hour ago, xPLAYRZx said:

  All of those new models use 3LCD, which makes sense for their target market.  Probably not great for home cinema.  Agreed that when large displays (I'd want to see 120"+) become competitively positioned against projectors it will be a game changer.

 

I feel like some of my comments may seem like I'm being negative toward Sony, but I'm actually a huge fan.  I've had (and have) many of their display devices, all of which have been excellent.  I want to see new models being developed, specifically new laser projectors for home cinema.  I would pull the trigger on a 760ES (or replacement) today, but with some of the information and discussions surfacing across the internet (the source of truth :P) I'm starting to get cold feet. 

Being a glass 1/2 full type ; and sony demonstrating led technology its conceivable [a long shot certainly] due to its lcos chipset deterioration problem ; they develop a lower cost laser/led hybrid like panasonic did a few years ago ? But Ime giving them too much credit  And they like selling globes ..

 

 

[xPLAYRZx]

55 minutes ago, betty boop said:

500-520es-550es were all iterative change. the real new model was the 500ES and then the 570es with new chasis etc.

Semantics.  Even if they share the same chassis and are largely the same, they are are still given a different model designation, thus a new model.  However you want to view it, there hasn't even been any iterative changes (or announcements) to the line up from Sony or JVC for some time.

 

1 hour ago, betty boop said:

if something comes it comes but sitting on hands doesnt achieve anything. 

I'm under no pressure to make a purchase, my current 520ES has been flawless and still throws a great image.  I absolutely agree that current lamp based units achieve some excellent results but my interest in updating it is largely driven by a want to move to laser.  As mentioned here already, laser is a better experience than lamp, and having auditioned both I would agree.  Combine this with the high price of entry into premium home cinema projectors (regardless of light source) it doesn't make sense for me to invest that sort of money if it doesn't scratch the itch I have. 

[xPLAYRZx]

10 minutes ago, cwt said:

Being a glass 1/2 full type ; and sony demonstrating led technology its conceivable [a long shot certainly] due to its lcos chipset deterioration problem ; they develop a lower cost laser/led hybrid like panasonic did a few years ago ? But Ime giving them too much credit  And they like selling globes ..

Assuming Sony does actually drop SXRD, it's also possible they could outsource the display technology going into their projectors, like they have with their OLED displays.  Sony have arguably some of the best image processing and optics in the world, so it would be a shame to see it go away.  Why not get JVC to supply their LCoS chipsets!?  That would be a great combo!

[betty boop]

1 hour ago, xPLAYRZx said:

Semantics.  Even if they share the same chassis and are largely the same, they are are still given a different model designation, thus a new model.  However you want to view it, there hasn't even been any iterative changes (or announcements) to the line up from Sony or JVC for some time.

 I think perhaps severely missing my point. what do you want ? a little iterative change or a truly new model ? if you want minor iterative changes thats what you typically get every year half  or two years or so. you dont get whole new truly new models, dumping the old with major ground up changes refreshes every couple of years. no manufactures do that. not even the tele makers. I disagree that neither sony or jvc have done anything major or iterative for some time. perhaps depends what your definition is of sometime. but both brands released significant new models with brand new chassis etc in last 2 years. heck as been mentioned the update for the 760es was "dramatic" as described by owner above. I know the dynamic tone mapping update for jvc id categories as game changer. they could have released a "new" model if they wanted to with the updates but chose not to. thank goodness for existing owners and also retailers who would have had to discount to clear out existing models to change over to the new one.

 

1 hour ago, xPLAYRZx said:

I'm under no pressure to make a purchase, my current 520ES has been flawless and still throws a great image.  I absolutely agree that current lamp based units achieve some excellent results but my interest in updating it is largely driven by a want to move to laser.  As mentioned here already, laser is a better experience than lamp, and having auditioned both I would agree.  Combine this with the high price of entry into premium home cinema projectors (regardless of light source) it doesn't make sense for me to invest that sort of money if it doesn't scratch the itch I have. 

if under no pressure to make a purchase might have to get something else for the itch  but no there is no news of anything coming any time soon. this is particularly exacerbated as mentioned by covid and global economic situation. not to say not possible if i see something i for sure will be sure to point it out....

 

 

[cwt]

1 hour ago, xPLAYRZx said:

Assuming Sony does actually drop SXRD, it's also possible they could outsource the display technology going into their projectors, like they have with their OLED displays.  Sony have arguably some of the best image processing and optics in the world, so it would be a shame to see it go away.  Why not get JVC to supply their LCoS chipsets!?  That would be a great combo!

If LG can oem their oled panels to sony et al theres always that thought  Its ironic that because of factors like  uhd being designed for tv and needing high nits and the" instantaneous " on/off of tvs as well as the low cost of  new 2020 models Ive ordered a 85"qled for uhd while keeping my jvc7000e for rec709 and 3d .. 

This wouldnt be happening if laser was cheaper and hitting the sort of nits an epson tw4000 manages 

[Mobe1969]

Yeah, I keep hoping JVC will release one in a standard JVC chassis AND dynamic tone mapping so there is at least an option. I had the option of getting a Z1 at a great price, but passed on it as I really found too much about it just irritating. Namely the size, weight, front venting, noise, heat, and the light level on low/quiet was more or less the same as a lamp model on low. 

 

The front venting, gee, that just boggles my mind.

 

The Sony 760 I keep looking at over the 870. The 760 got a nice firmware upgrade with the dynamic iris getting enabled.

 

I think though ultimately the one thing that has stopped me upgrading is that JVC's current lamp models now have dynamic tone mapping. There are no true 4k laser models with DTM. Even if JVC did an updated or firmware update to the Z1, with all my objections to it, I'd probably bite the bullet and get one, and go to the trouble of constructing a baffle box enclosure for it to keep the noise and heat out of the HT...

 

I know people might say lamp models are great, but I love the stability and bump you get with laser.

 

 

Edited July 2, 2020 by Mobe1969

[xPLAYRZx]

All excellent points.  Ignoring price, the weight, heat and noise from the Z1 are deal breakers for me.  I couldn't get past that regardless of any discount or feature update.

 

The Sony 760ES is the front runner for me at the moment.  It has a good balance of price (relative) and performance and is installation friendly (for me).  With the ongoing developments in DTM and although not that important to me at the moment, the introduction of HDMI 2.1, what I wouldn't want to do is drop $20K+ on a projector today, only to see JVC or Sony release a new model the next day sporting 2200+ lumens, DTM, HDMI 2.1, improved contrast, etc. for the same or less price.  

[betty boop]

3 hours ago, xPLAYRZx said:

All excellent points.  Ignoring price, the weight, heat and noise from the Z1 are deal breakers for me.  I couldn't get past that regardless of any discount or feature update.

 

The Sony 760ES is the front runner for me at the moment.  It has a good balance of price (relative) and performance and is installation friendly (for me).  With the ongoing developments in DTM and although not that important to me at the moment, the introduction of HDMI 2.1, what I wouldn't want to do is drop $20K+ on a projector today, only to see JVC or Sony release a new model the next day sporting 2200+ lumens, DTM, HDMI 2.1, improved contrast, etc. for the same or less price.  

You can’t hold back progress.... dtm is indeed game changing not seen any moves of Sony’s to match jvc on this.
 

With jvc, like Sony I doubt you are going to see laser under cut current lamp models in pricing. I expect any laser model will sit between jvc nx9 and z1 I’d suggest. The z1 been 39k rrp for a while a new z1 with dtm and updated with your dream list would be above that in price I suspect  the nx9 retails at 21k and rrp of nearly 27k

 

wheres that put a nx9 with laser   

 

@franin has had Sony 760es and 870es and went back jvc nx9 he might be able to comment as another point of reference given ownership of some of the models discussed above .....

 

[franin]

Ive had three 760es and one 870es all having issues. Pq wise the Sony in bright scenes was fantastic but the dark scenes was horrible( That wasn't the issue with the projector ).  I had pixelation In the dark scenes and  was forever mucking around with the tone mapping to fix it. Ive written about it before somewhere in the JVC NX thread where I gave examples of issues of some  dark scenes the Sony suffered. Hell the Epson did a better job than the Sony in those dark scenes well.

Edited July 3, 2020 by franin

[cwt]

2 hours ago, xPLAYRZx said:

The Sony 760ES is the front runner for me at the moment.  It has a good balance of price (relative) and performance and is installation friendly (for me).  With the ongoing developments in DTM and although not that important to me at the moment, the introduction of HDMI 2.1, what I wouldn't want to do is drop $20K+ on a projector today, only to see JVC or Sony release a new model the next day sporting 2200+ lumens, DTM, HDMI 2.1, improved contrast, etc. for the same or less price.  

How big do you want the screen xPLAYRZx [ and how relatively important is uhd reproduction for you ?] If you can live with 100" until a decent low cost laser projector is available the Hisense 100"qled was released a few days ago . its rrp is 15k ; but that is a starting point of course ..

Of course the brighter the nits the easier it is to tone map and closer you can get to bt2020 . Ime lucky though as with a motorised screen you can have the best of each format - no 3d with tv's anymore..

[TP1]

On 02/07/2020 at 10:34 AM, xPLAYRZx said:

The linked article only references commercial applications, yes, but there must be a knock-on effect to the home market.  The technology used for home devices is developed here.  Issues with Sony's LCoS technology (SXRD) is well documented and goes back many years and doesn't only impact commercial devices, it's simply accelerated in that application and environment.   (e.g https://www.avsforum.com/forum/24-digital-hi-end-projectors-3-000-usd-msrp/2247282-sony-sxrd-degradation-thread-effects-all-current-sony-sxrd-1080p-4k-panels.html)

There has been scare mongering on AVSforum for sure with a lot of vested interests.  Sony developed the technology many years ago and had issues but the chips have been redesigned a few times since.   It's easy to do a hatchet job on any manufacturer - Imagine writing about the JVC issues now in the same way .  The only reliable way I have found to assess the suitability of a projector or component  is to talk to as many owners as possible of each of the pieces under consideration.  Follow up with as many PMs as it takes .

 

In terms of screen sizes, I have a 140" 2.35:1 cinemascope screen.   TVs are 16x9 and  and even with a 100" screen , a 2.35.1 picture is letterboxed and will end up being less than half the size you can achieve with a decent projector and Cine screen. 

[Mobe1969]

10 hours ago, betty boop said:

 

wheres that put a nx9 with laser   

 

@franin

An nx7 with laser would be game over. The nx9 with the 8k jiggle shift is just to me worthless, It is the sort of rubbish that irritates the heck out of me with JVC in general and why I'd always prefer Sony for it's flaws.

 

13 hours ago, xPLAYRZx said:

All excellent points.  Ignoring price, the weight, heat and noise from the Z1 are deal breakers for me.  I couldn't get past that regardless of any discount or feature update.

 

The Sony 760ES is the front runner for me at the moment.  It has a good balance of price (relative) and performance and is installation friendly (for me).  With the ongoing developments in DTM and although not that important to me at the moment, the introduction of HDMI 2.1, what I wouldn't want to do is drop $20K+ on a projector today, only to see JVC or Sony release a new model the next day sporting 2200+ lumens, DTM, HDMI 2.1, improved contrast, etc. for the same or less price.  

Yeah exactly. From my outsider perspective, the continual litany of stupid engineering choices just sours me against JVC in principle. And front venting. This sort of stuff just makes me angry as I can't make any sense of it.

 

The 760 is a great choice, and if it or the 870 had dtm I'd have one.

 

Really though, whoever releases the equivalent of the nx7 with laser will have my money. Knowing JVC though, they'd have to do it on a model and make you pay for a useless worthless 8k jiggle shift. They just can't help themselves....

Edited July 3, 2020 by Mobe1969

[betty boop]

5 hours ago, Mobe1969 said:

An nx7 with laser would be game over. The nx9 with the 8k jiggle shift is just to me worthless, It is the sort of rubbish that irritates the heck out of me with JVC in general and why I'd always prefer Sony for it's flaws.

for me an nx7 IS game over right now .... not looking for an nx7 with laser given likely what that would cost .. can't see it coming anywhere below or anything less than nx9 where it is now ... ive worked for large global multinationals and  I for one can't see why they shouldn't charge what's necessary to recoup what will be significant funds to get a new model and a game changer in what is small niche market product.

 

if you rather sony and its flaws have now, why not get the 760es it cures some of the flaws living with and adds laser that are craving ?  re your "8k jiggle shift" do you really think it costs that much to add ? "jiggle shift" didn't cost that much to add to the xx00 series ? and guess what it brought within reach for many and still does achieving something in-between 2k and 4k which is about what most material at best is in anywise. oz's post below... is spot on.... if someone didn't have the cash for an n5/n7 i would still suggest older gen xx00 jiggle shift...thats how good they were in pure PQ terms. nothing comes close to them at price point i would suggest. 

On 02/07/2020 at 5:36 PM, oztheatre said:

The 500ES is ancient now. Don't get sucked in by the amount of pixels. A 2K projector with a good lens will destroy a 4K projector with an ordinary lens. 

 

4K projector with average lens means you don't really have a 4K projector. If lens is not up to the task then I'd forget it.

this has been the flaw i would suggest with sonys ...lens...and of course the base tech jvc uses that seems to beat sony in contrast stakes for the better pure PQ, .if been around long enough will remember thread with javs in early days with him and me comparing sony v jvc. there is more to PQ than just native or jiggle shift. i would suggest most folk buy the nx9 on pure PQ terms. it has after all the greater contrast advantage over the lower models and here is where the cost is I would suggest its  ... optics ! and light engine to suit. if you are into photography you would know optics is where it as and can cost many orders of magnitude vs camera tech itself. the nx9 has a 100mm 18 element, 16 group all glass lens.... vs base JVC’s that still have something pretty special with 65mm, 17-element, 15-group all glass lens as well. lenses go up exponentially in cost....

 

5 hours ago, Mobe1969 said:

Yeah exactly. From my outsider perspective, the continual litany of stupid engineering choices just sours me against JVC in principle. And front venting. This sort of stuff just makes me angry as I can't make any sense of it.

do you blame them for having a go ? with the nx9 ? why not bring to the consumer their tech that made possible THE first showing from NHK of 8k in japan ever ! i bet you the nx9 is the development horse to take a hdmi 2.1 chipset to showcase 8k when that becomes common place ....to then take them on next part of journey ... 8k native.... for those that crave it(not me)... Japanese companies make incremental steps... might annoy the heck out of folk but its incremental but its what takes them up and above one step at a time rather than big jump that are costly and risky...though still need to be taken at some times...

 

is it any different to sony that hold back on tech in the range ... eg not having full bandwidth and full HDR and WCG capability across the range even in the age of UHD ? what excuse did they have for that ? even now every model misses out on something or other till get to the 570es that have to pay well over what jvc asks to still not get what jvc gives ? 

 

5 hours ago, Mobe1969 said:

The 760 is a great choice, and if it or the 870 had dtm I'd have one.

the biggest differentiator is optics .... the 870es finally gets the arc-F lens of the mighty 1000es that was put to sleep and left in hibernation.... re DTM why not get an add on for that... though i understand if getting a madvr its going to cost you more than a jvc n7  naughty jvc for building in DTM even in their base models  

 

5 hours ago, Mobe1969 said:

Really though, whoever releases the equivalent of the nx7 with laser will have my money. Knowing JVC though, they'd have to do it on a model and make you pay for a useless worthless 8k jiggle shift. They just can't help themselves....

seriously ? jvc is a commercial company ... just like sony. they will charge what they see fit at price point and include what they see fit. at end vote with your wallet ... most people do... buy what's see as necessary...as you have clearly done and others will do as see fit... they are just a company trying to make a quid...and people are buying ...certainly even on this forum there are folk easily identifiable with all projectors being discussed here so clearly a reason to buy....

 

[Mobe1969]

4 hours ago, betty boop said:

for me an nx7 IS game over right now .... not looking for an nx7 with laser given likely what that would cost .. can't see it coming anywhere below or anything less than nx9 where it is now ... ive worked for large global multinationals and  I for one can't see why they shouldn't charge what's necessary to recoup what will be significant funds to get a new model and a game changer in what is small niche market product.

 

if you rather sony and its flaws have now, why not get the 760es it cures some of the flaws living with and adds laser that are craving ?  re your "8k jiggle shift" do you really think it costs that much to add ? "jiggle shift" didn't cost that much to add to the xx00 series ? and guess what it brought within reach for many and still does achieving something in-between 2k and 4k which is about what most material at best is in anywise. oz's post below... is spot on.... if someone didn't have the cash for an n5/n7 i would still suggest older gen xx00 jiggle shift...thats how good they were in pure PQ terms. nothing comes close to them at price point i would suggest. 

this has been the flaw i would suggest with sonys ...lens...and of course the base tech jvc uses that seems to beat sony in contrast stakes for the better pure PQ, .if been around long enough will remember thread with javs in early days with him and me comparing sony v jvc. there is more to PQ than just native or jiggle shift. i would suggest most folk buy the nx9 on pure PQ terms. it has after all the greater contrast advantage over the lower models and here is where the cost is I would suggest its  ... optics ! and light engine to suit. if you are into photography you would know optics is where it as and can cost many orders of magnitude vs camera tech itself. the nx9 has a 100mm 18 element, 16 group all glass lens.... vs base JVC’s that still have something pretty special with 65mm, 17-element, 15-group all glass lens as well. lenses go up exponentially in cost....

 

do you blame them for having a go ? with the nx9 ? why not bring to the consumer their tech that made possible THE first showing from NHK of 8k in japan ever ! i bet you the nx9 is the development horse to take a hdmi 2.1 chipset to showcase 8k when that becomes common place ....to then take them on next part of journey ... 8k native.... for those that crave it(not me)... Japanese companies make incremental steps... might annoy the heck out of folk but its incremental but its what takes them up and above one step at a time rather than big jump that are costly and risky...though still need to be taken at some times...

 

is it any different to sony that hold back on tech in the range ... eg not having full bandwidth and full HDR and WCG capability across the range even in the age of UHD ? what excuse did they have for that ? even now every model misses out on something or other till get to the 570es that have to pay well over what jvc asks to still not get what jvc gives ? 

 

the biggest differentiator is optics .... the 870es finally gets the arc-F lens of the mighty 1000es that was put to sleep and left in hibernation.... re DTM why not get an add on for that... though i understand if getting a madvr its going to cost you more than a jvc n7  naughty jvc for building in DTM even in their base models  

 

seriously ? jvc is a commercial company ... just like sony. they will charge what they see fit at price point and include what they see fit. at end vote with your wallet ... most people do... buy what's see as necessary...as you have clearly done and others will do as see fit... they are just a company trying to make a quid...and people are buying ...certainly even on this forum there are folk easily identifiable with all projectors being discussed here so clearly a reason to buy....

 

I can't see why anyone would want an nx9 over an nx7 as there is no real value. The extra cost for it is just laughable. If it has a laser light source, I'd get it, but they just stick in a useless gimmick, and charge a lot more. I'm ok paying an over inflated premium for a laser, but not for worthless gimmicks like jiggle shift. And it just adds yet another pathetic action/behavior to what I continually see with JVC, and why I really would prefer not to send a single dent there way

 

Regards madvr and lumagen, don't get me started. If it was just a matter of paying for it, fine. But these devices are idiotically complicated to set up and configure for the one feature I'm interested in. DTM. Madvr is bloated power mad, and requires overpowered, loud, hot computer equipment running on a bloated fat operating system. And it can't even handle 3D. I was going to go lumagen, but got such a runaround, such a load of nonsense from their sellers and forum threads I just lost interest. The fact I've can do it with a friggin menu option says it all. That is all I should need to do. I don't want to have to hire a pro to set it up or spend weeks learning. DTM is an entire subject that makes my blood boil at every level. Every damn HDR display device should handle it. This entire era has been an utter clusterxxxx. I mean especially panel TV's. I can't understand the idiocy of having an actual signal that says ok this pixel has a max of 2000nits, and the tv knows, ok I can only display 1000 nits,  so I'll just clip everything. It is idiotic, and speaking as an electronics engineer, if I was working on these I'd be xxxxing ashamed of myself for being so xxxxing lazy. I'd be utterly disgusted with myself. Utterly.

 

So yeah, I'm waiting for a laser projector with real 4k and dtm. At the moment, there isn't one.

Edited July 4, 2020 by Mobe1969

[betty boop]

1 hour ago, Mobe1969 said:

can't see why anyone would want an nx9 over an nx7 as there is no real value. The extra cost for it is just laughable. If it has a laser light source, I'd get it, but they just stick in a useless gimmick, and charge a lot more. I'm ok paying an over inflated premium for a laser, but not for worthless gimmicks like jiggle shift. And it just adds yet another pathetic action/behavior to what I continually see with JVC, and why I really would prefer not to send a single dent there way

Clearly misread my post or points I made. People buy nx9 for improved contrast and optics for pure PQ benefits  ... there is significant optics and contrast  difference between nx7 and nx9. The jiggle shift as you call it and I understand your deep seeded issues with jvc. However also taken pains to explain why likely introduced it. 8k is next gen (not that I see it as necessary or important) but  this is their first step towards...its what oems do as progress...it’s small step for them and makes next step easier. but clearly that was missed too from my post.

 

1 hour ago, Mobe1969 said:

Regards madvr and lumagen, don't get me started. If it was just a matter of paying for it, fine. But these devices are idiotically complicated to set up and configure for the one feature I'm interested in. DTM. Madvr is bloated power mad, and requires overpowered, loud, hot computer equipment running on a bloated fat operating system. And it can't even handle 3D. I was going to go lumagen, but got such a runaround, such a load of nonsense from their sellers and forum threads I just lost interest. The fact I've can do it with a friggin menu option says it all. That is all I should need to do. I don't want to have to hire a pro to set it up or spend weeks learning. DTM is an entire subject that makes my blood boil at every level. Every damn HDR display device should handle it. This entire era has been an utter clusterxxxx. I mean especially panel TV's. I can't understand the idiocy of having an actual signal that says ok this pixel has a max of 2000nits, and the tv knows, ok I can only display 1000 nits,  so I'll just clip everything. It is idiotic, and speaking as an electronics engineer, if I was working on these I'd be xxxxing

I don’t see need either especially when came as update with jvc, and works seamlessly across everything thrown at it since update. Set forget, never seen ever put foot wrong. Can’t ask for more why I won’t bother with add ons costing as much as projector. But add on it is an option and Some go there, I understand and share your frustration and why I wouldn’t do either.

 

as far as dynamic tone mapping it’s something in reality happens right from camera stage ... cameras and medium are dynamic limited to what can capture. A 5 sec google will tell you daylight is 1,600,000,000 nits. No camera can capture that  No tv can handle that , we typically calibrate projectors for around 100 nits. Night sky is 0.001nits. No camera or tv can handle that sort dynamic range.... why dynamic tone mapping is needed. 
 

it’s a reality of what nature is and what we can achieve in the home... and I for one thing what we achieve is pretty damn amazing ! This is for dynamic tone mapping that works...

 

1 hour ago, Mobe1969 said:

So yeah, I'm waiting for a laser projector with real 4k and dtm. At the moment, there isn't one

while we might get a projector with laser and dtm don’t expect not to be tone mapping down to capability of projector and no it won’t be to  2000 nits or 1000nits let alone 10000 nits we some times see with mastering...

[wooferocau]

1 hour ago, Mobe1969 said:

 

 

Regards madvr and lumagen, don't get me started. If it was just a matter of paying for it, fine. But these devices are idiotically complicated to set up and configure for the one feature I'm interested in. DTM.

I have madVR HTPC, Envy Extreme and a Lumagen 4242 ........i cant say much in regards to the Envy ( NDA ) BUT i can say that its "Ridiculously " Easy to set up ...then its truly "Forget" ..

 

Once again...anyone who thinks that there is little difference from the JVC DTM  to the DTM of the Envy or the Lumagen is really kidding themselves !