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18 minutes ago, Ittaku said:

 

Nice. Plus shipping time. It is a nice DAC.

 

But $60+ more than a fresh D10 from same vendor or bigger diff from WTB or Drop, and that money better spent elsewhere. Cal mic and/or beer and/or skittles.

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1 hour ago, Ollie_H_ said:

Okay, thank you so much, you've been the most helpful person i've bumped into on this journey so far haha, i appreciate u getting into my head space with budgets. So many times ive asked for something cheap and get recommended a $1000 piece of kit lol. Thanks again, ill give it a go! ill crack in ur name 

 

Enjoy the ride 👍

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2 minutes ago, rmpfyf said:

But $60+ more than a fresh D10 from same vendor or bigger diff from WTB or Drop, and that money better spent elsewhere. Cal mic and/or beer and/or skittles.

 

Yes, there is usually a better way to spend money, given proper consideration and discipline ;) That said, $60 is nothing in an audio world where heaps more is spent on wooden disks to put on top of amps, or little bells to stick to the walls. But I digress...

 

I still maintain that the differences between DACs (or even BlueTooth adapters) are mere minutiae, and that macroscopic improvements can be had by improving acoustic fundamentals.

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31 minutes ago, Steffen said:

 

Yes, there is usually a better way to spend money, given proper consideration and discipline ;) That said, $60 is nothing in an audio world where heaps more is spent on wooden disks to put on top of amps, or little bells to stick to the walls. But I digress...

 

I still maintain that the differences between DACs (or even BlueTooth adapters) are mere minutiae, and that macroscopic improvements can be had by improving acoustic fundamentals.

 

Somewhere I've got a note from a friend a few decades ago whilst at University. He authored it when I was considering some more crap for my car.

 

It was an optimisation function for more beer.

 

When expressed mathematically the rationale for not spending money on **** you don't need is starkly obvious :D

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Posted (edited)
4 minutes ago, rmpfyf said:

When expressed mathematically the rationale for not spending money on **** you don't need is starkly obvious :D

The HiFi industry would be in dire straights if people thinking rationally ever grew beyond a small minority :) 

 

 

 

Edited by Steffen
quote trimming

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2 hours ago, rmpfyf said:

 

Nice. Plus shipping time. It is a nice DAC.

 

But $60+ more than a fresh D10 from same vendor or bigger diff from WTB or Drop, and that money better spent elsewhere. Cal mic and/or beer and/or skittles.

I think D10 is a great DAC at its price. It's also really useful as a USB to OPTICAL or COAX converter.

 

I really don't like how it does not go into standby. I always wonder if its life is being shortened by the lack of standby. I would also prefer a separate power supply to the audio feed.

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The whites vibration squares from bunnings mentioned earlier is something you can do tomorrow for less than 10.00. @es9038pro might be able to help you out with an inexpensive topping or smsl dac.

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Be aware there are fake Topping D10s out there and Amazon were selling them.

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Posted (edited)
10 hours ago, gwurb said:

I really don't like how it does not go into standby. I always wonder if its life is being shortened by the lack of standby. I would also prefer a separate power supply to the audio feed.

 

Meh, standby not really a life concern, power cycles will kill more. You can power down USB if you're worried.

 

It can be independently powered with a split cable for those that care. At the OPs level of fidelity this isn't a thing.

 

8 hours ago, gwurb said:

Jitter looks good

https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/smsl-sanskrit-10th-mk-ii-dac-review.12148/

Is there some other measurement source to look at?

 

That's actually a poor jitter plot for a modern DAC. 120dB of spectral energy off a J test is not an audibility criteria for jitter. Amir knows a lot but he can't read jitter spectra correctly.

 

EDIT @gwurb I should be fair. The jitter plot is weird and not poor. It's a very odd spectral distribution. I've no doubt it's a capable DAC for the price, all other specs are excellent for the cash (and a lot more). Apologies.

Edited by rmpfyf

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26 minutes ago, rmpfyf said:

 

Meh, standby not really a life concern, power cycles will kill more. You can power down USB if you're worried.

Agreed. Solid state components last longer if you just leave them on, and a D10 uses hardly any power.

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A good DAC can make a big difference. Some of the reasonable but economic ones are produced by Audio Lab & Musical Fidelity. I think a 2nd hand Chord Electronics Mojo is excellent. However, you need good USB cable and RCA cable to get the best out of your DAC. $2 cables will dull the music substantially.

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1 hour ago, Tony@melb said:

A good DAC can make a big difference. Some of the reasonable but economic ones are produced by Audio Lab & Musical Fidelity. I think a 2nd hand Chord Electronics Mojo is excellent. However, you need good USB cable and RCA cable to get the best out of your DAC. $2 cables will dull the music substantially.

 

I think it's far to say that any of the above suggestions will blow the OP's budget out of the water ;)

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5 hours ago, Batty said:

Be aware there are fake Topping D10s out there and Amazon were selling them.

thankyou, i was actually looking on amazon as some of the d10s and i was thinking they looked weird lol. Cheers

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They do not have the  name Topping on the fakes.

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52 minutes ago, Ollie_H_ said:

thankyou, i was actually looking on amazon as some of the d10s and i was thinking they looked weird lol. Cheers

Just in case you didn't know, Addicted to Audio now stock TOPPING gear.

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Mate, you might want to check out Fiio range. The K3 is a bit over budget but the old e10k sounds good and you can also plug headphones in. You can find them pretty cheap. I have one which I used to run with Audioengine active speakers. Sounds pretty good for what it is.

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Posted (edited)

You've just discovered that bluetooth (non-AptX anyway) is crap and you don't need a ridiculously expensive system to hear it. Literally any other source - laptop headphone out, phone headphone out, Chromecast audio, low end DAC, high end DAC - will sound significantly better. Why? Because bluetooth is a compressed signal, the reason the music sounds lifeless is because you literally aren't hearing all of it, information has been thrown away to make it fit into the limited bandwidth bluetooth provides.

 

The difference in sound between a well made (Topping, SMSL) low-end DAC and a high-end one is minimal (and objective measurements prove this) so don't get carried away there. Just pick one with the inputs you need. Also, do not get talked into high-end USB/RCA cables. Whatever comes in the box is fine. As long as they aren't made out of spaghetti they all sound the same (again plenty of measurements out there to prove this).

Edited by d3ft

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3 hours ago, Ollie_H_ said:

thankyou, i was actually looking on amazon as some of the d10s and i was thinking they looked weird lol. Cheers

I've bought from this seller before and from everything that I can see it is not a fake

https://www.amazon.com.au/Topping-ES9018K2M-PCM384-Desktop-Decoder/dp/B082HRNYF8/ref=sr_1_2?dchild=1&keywords=topping+d10&qid=1593672193&sr=8-2

 

I've bought a black Topping D10 and SMSL Sanskrit 10th MKII (don't buy non MKII) from that seller. Both looks good and sound fine. I'd trust the seller again if I was looking to buy another Topping or SMSL product.

 

Addicted 2 Audio do stock Topping E30 and some other more expensive products.

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9 hours ago, rmpfyf said:

That's actually a poor jitter plot for a modern DAC. 120dB of spectral energy off a J test is not an audibility criteria for jitter. Amir knows a lot but he can't read jitter spectra correctly.

 

EDIT @gwurb I should be fair. The jitter plot is weird and not poor. It's a very odd spectral distribution. I've no doubt it's a capable DAC for the price, all other specs are excellent for the cash (and a lot more). Apologies.

All good. I agree that the Topping D10 and D30 jitter response is cleaner.

SMSL has a neat form factor and the jitter response has artifacts below -120dB so that's much better than a lot of much more expensive DACs. If I was to guess then I'd say there is something going on with the internal clock but it's really minor.  I don't have access to my D10 at the moment and probably won't for a long time so I can't do an A/B between them. None the less I am curious.

I primarily got SMSL as I wanted something that could be powered by an external supply, had an AK chip to get a different sound to ESS and CS (I have other DACs with those). I also don't like not having a display on D30. If I was to buy again I would consider stretching $50 or what ever the difference is to get E30.

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31 minutes ago, gwurb said:

)........

I also don't like not having a display on D30. If I was to buy again I would consider stretching $50 or what ever the difference is to get E30.

After it was mentioned on a SNA thread I've got my eye on E30 when I actually have a system again.

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55 minutes ago, gwurb said:

All good. I agree that the Topping D10 and D30 jitter response is cleaner.

SMSL has a neat form factor and the jitter response has artifacts below -120dB so that's much better than a lot of much more expensive DACs. If I was to guess then I'd say there is something going on with the internal clock but it's really minor.  I don't have access to my D10 at the moment and probably won't for a long time so I can't do an A/B between them. None the less I am curious.

I primarily got SMSL as I wanted something that could be powered by an external supply, had an AK chip to get a different sound to ESS and CS (I have other DACs with those). I also don't like not having a display on D30. If I was to buy again I would consider stretching $50 or what ever the difference is to get E30.

 

The SMSL jitter plot has a weird spread - a lot of energy wide of the characteristic frequency, that's certainly audible. I would caution that dB on J-test spectra is not SPL, as in it's not a measure of audibility. For a fun thing at a low cost that gets into mid-range current AKM chips it's a steal. DAC IC's have come a hell of long way in recent times and a 4493, though midrange, gives performance we really weren't dreaming of 10 years ago at the same price point. (As in no one was running 1704k's NOS in a mega clean implementation for sub-$200). 

 

A friend upped his DAC game on his very nice system in a very nice room and just went an E30, he's quite happy. It sounds pretty good. 

 

The correct answer for the OP, of course, is 'the one that you get cheapest on SNA's WTB or Classifieds' and pump the rest into correction :D 

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On 02/07/2020 at 4:17 PM, d3ft said:

You've just discovered that bluetooth (non-AptX anyway) is crap and you don't need a ridiculously expensive system to hear it. Literally any other source - laptop headphone out, phone headphone out, Chromecast audio, low end DAC, high end DAC - will sound significantly better. Why? Because bluetooth is a compressed signal, the reason the music sounds lifeless is because you literally aren't hearing all of it, information has been thrown away to make it fit into the limited bandwidth bluetooth provides.

 

The difference in sound between a well made (Topping, SMSL) low-end DAC and a high-end one is minimal (and objective measurements prove this) so don't get carried away there. Just pick one with the inputs you need. Also, do not get talked into high-end USB/RCA cables. Whatever comes in the box is fine. As long as they aren't made out of spaghetti they all sound the same (again plenty of measurements out there to prove this).

Have you actually compare DACs or cables with your own ears or you blindly believe in reviews, test, measurements posted in internet? 

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20 hours ago, Irek said:

Have you actually compare DACs or cables with your own ears or you blindly believe in reviews, test, measurements posted in internet? 

Given a DAC has a known "perfect" result (if you prefer a distorted signal that's fine but you shouldn't be using a DAC to achieve this), yes I trust measurements corroborated by multiple sources on the internet using sophisticated testing gear. I don't have the time or inclination to be purchasing multiple DACs and performing an unscientific listening test. I'd rather start with as close to perfect measured performance as my budget will allow and adjust the sound to my liking via a digital EQ - at least I know I won't be fighting my equipment.

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You say a beginner question but in reality this is the same problem we all tend to have for years, hear something somewhere, take it home and it sounds different, how do i get it back to what i heard before? can't do it, it must be the equipment, spend more, change it, upgrade etc etc.

 

Heres a few things...

 

First of all when building a system, these days we have an advantage, CD players use to be hit and miss and i have seldom heard any that sound Audiophile under $1500, so for me thats where it starts. Turntables are even harder to get right as a source, but now heres the good news

 

Use a PC almost any PC the quieter the better but seldom are they noisy enough to hear and ruin musical enjoyment.

 

Get a Topping TD10 it is cheap and exceptional. PC to Topping, Topping to Amp.

 

Spotify works and is cheap, Tidal is much better and a 3 month trial is about $4 at the moment, Roon is good but to me Audirvana is cheaper and sounds better. You'll need this to start to insure you have Audiophile level sound out put. All free trials so thats good.

 

Now you have a front end that will compete with pretty much anything, at any price. So that eliminates one issue, the troublesome front end, i have never heard a system this did not match.

 

Someone may argue with me, but the truth is this is what i use and my system sounds as good as any 100K system.

 

The major point here is even if you want to argue the semantics of how good it is, and what is better, it is still way good enough to know this is not the problem.

 

So buy the topping, find a laptop or cheap PC and you are sorted at the front end level, later you can experiment and try different things, this is better that is better etc, but you'll be hanging your ear out to hear a difference, so whats the point?

 

Then all the other advice is relevant.

 

Position is everything, micro movements of speakers and patients over time, trial and error, very frustrating, but if you have heard and enjoyed the tone of the speakers you are ahead of the game.

 

If could be synergy between speaker and amp as well, beg steel and borrow to experiment and save money where you can.

 

Find my system thread and scroll through to find my cheap isolation solution for you amp and possibly use the pads you see there under the speakers as well, i promise you these are as good as the stupid priced isolation you see.

 

Magic - With HI FI you have to believe in magic, over the years as you experiment more you will get better at making the system sound better. I do what seems to be the same thing i did 10 years ago, but somehow it seems to sound better. Maybe my hearing skill has got better maybe it's a micro change who knows, the point is here I think all Audiophiles have experienced this at some level, thats partly why there is so much debate in HI FI. This is what i call Magic and is a term audiophiles need to adopt.

 

Next every rule I have ever created in HI FI over the years, I have seen broken somewhere else, at another time, try everything no matter what anyone says, you'll hit the spot.

 

So Topping Tidal $4 trial, Audirvana free Trial to start. 

 

Hope that helps, Have a Great Day

 

 

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