Musical Subwoofers

[DSD_Fan]

Hi all, 

I am currently running 2x SVS SB-2000 subs in my music setup. I'm thinking of moving to the JL Audio E-subs (E112) as the Fathom's at almost 8K each is out of the budget. 

Is this worth doing? I heard the amps on the JL's are not the most reliable. Is this still the case? 

 

I'm not after low shake the house subs. But more kick drum thumps and authority to my music. 

JL's are made more so for music (correct me if I am wrong) and that's all I care about. I have another system for movies.

Subs need to be sealed (for me) 

Thanks 

[Snoopy8]

Suggest keeping subs and improving how you integrate the subs into your setup with a target curve.  The kick drum can be improved by using a target curve similar to what I posted in this thread, tweak 3.  

If you want to improve the bass even further, you can use multi sub optimiser (MSO).  MSO does take some effort but it is one of the best sub integration software that I have used.

[cazzesman]

^^^^   What Snoopy said.

 

If you don't have the confidence to set up the subs yourself it would be cheaper to spend $300 to $500 on getting professional in to do it for you.   2 x SB2000 should be all you need with the right tweaks.     If it turns out the SVS simply need to be repositioned and you plonk the JL's in the same spot you will probably get the same issue and no musical improvement.

 

Regards Cazzesman

[DSD_Fan]

5 minutes ago, Snoopy8 said:

Suggest keeping subs and improving how you integrate the subs into your setup with a target curve.  The kick drum can be improved by using a target curve similar to what I posted in this thread, tweak 3.  

If you want to improve the bass even further, you can use multi sub optimiser (MSO).  MSO does take some effort but it is one of the best sub integration software that I have used.

 

I am happy with the kickdrum with the SVS. But you know the 'always want better upgrades' it's to see if this upgrade to the JL's is worth it (and I am a JL fanboy) 

I have the SVS's integrated really well and even the wife says she can't pin-point the subs when playing. 
 

[Snoopy8]

4 minutes ago, DSD_Fan said:

But you know the 'always want better upgrades' it's to see if this upgrade to the JL's is worth it (and I am a JL fanboy) 

That is a different story.  I am sure JL fans here will encourage you...  

[cazzesman]

Ahhhhhh so it is not Covid it is Upgraditis

 

Different problem completely.   It is now officially an issue between you and your bank account.

 

Good Luck

 

Regards Cazzesman

[DSD_Fan]

lol yeah........ 

 

Just seeing if it would be an upgrade or a side step

 

 

[MrC]

21 minutes ago, DSD_Fan said:

But you know the 'always want better upgrades' it's to see if this upgrade to the JL's is worth it (and I am a JL fanboy)

Not sure why you are asking people here since you already seem to have made up your mind.  I agree with those that have said that 2 SVS SB2000's is all you need.

[Bunno77]

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Edited June 29, 2020 by Bunno77
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[betty boop]

in my experience there are subs and subs....

 

you can always get better.... subs that are more .cleaner sounding and controlled and those that hit harder and delve deeper.

 

the SB2000s are good for what they are ... but i do also believe you can do better. get what pay for with subs .... just like with anything else and there is always better....

 

personally very happy with my velodyne dd15s ..and for reasons above clean controlled sound, how deep they go and how hard they can hit... 

 

good subs in my opinion blend in very well...seamlessly to point of adding air and feel to the sound....

 

all that said am not sure the E subs would be a step up... probably need to go to likes of fathoms which are next level up in things... like in anything in audio law diminishing returns... have to spend significantly more for gains as go up...

[DSD_Fan]

1 minute ago, MrC said:

Not sure why you are asking people here since you already seem to have made up your mind.  I agree with those that have said that 2 SVS SB2000's is all you need.

Haven't made my mind up, hence me asking here. o far I am just keeping the SVS's. I'd rather spend money on something else. Just had the option to get 2 at a 'realistic price' was all. 

Thanks everyone for the input 

 

 

[DSD_Fan]

Just now, betty boop said:

in my experience there are subs and subs....

 

you can always get better.... subs that are more .cleaner sounding and controlled and those that hit harder and delve deeper.

 

the SB2000s are good for what they are ... but i do also believe you can do better. get what pay for with subs .... just like with anything else and there is always better....

 

personally very happy with my velodyne dd15s ..and for reasons above clean controlled sound, how deep they go and how hard they can hit... 

 

good subs in my opinion blend in very well...seamlessly to point of adding air and feel to the sound....

 

Exactly

 

 

[davewantsmoore]

53 minutes ago, DSD_Fan said:

Is this worth doing?

When subwoofers are EQed to identical response.... and used at levels where distortion is low..... then they sound identical.

 

Because our ears are more and more sensitive to small changes in levels as the frequency gets lower, this is very hard to arrange.

 

It is as easy as falling off a log to audition two subwoofers, where one is putting out more than double or half, the accoustic energy at certain frequencies.    This obviously plays havoc with the harmonic structure of low frequncy sounds..... which contributes to warmth, thickness, slam, and all the other zillion subjective ways people describe sound.

 

The most important thing is avoiding large/uncorrectable nulls in the response at LF..... by carefull positioning of the listener, and bass source(s) although that's not always practical for many setups.

 

The next most important (the most, for most people) is achiving a "flat" response in a big picture sense.....  No unintended wiggles in the frequency response.   That's where you will win rewards for "thumps and authority".

 

 

The answer to your question re: a "bigger subwoofers", really depends on what SPL you are asking them to play, and what distortion levels that's causing.

[Essence]

Rythmik G25HP? Or a PSA with neo/ipal drivers. Peter from Deephzaudio is also a pleasure to deal with and seek advice from. I am pretty sure he was partly responsible for bringing SVS into Australia. 

[almikel]

5 hours ago, DSD_Fan said:

I'm not after low shake the house subs. But more kick drum thumps and authority to my music. 

keep in mind lots of the bass slam (kick in the chest frequencies) are around 100Hz - not sub territory, however subs add "weight" to the music.

I've not listened to SVS subs, but they're well regarded - as @davewantsmoore says, if they're integrated well and not driven to distortion IMHO there'll be marginal if any audible difference to the JL's.

 

6 hours ago, DSD_Fan said:

Subs need to be sealed (for me) 

As a lazy DIYer, sealed subs have always appealed to me, but my current DIY sub is a dual driver tapped horn (designed by someone much smarter than me).

I've had the bits to build a sealed Peerless 12" sub for ages, but the performance of the tapped horn is so good my laziness gene has prevented any sawdust being made.

IMO the secret sauce to subs is good integration and having enough power and cone radiating area to meet SPL targets at low distortion - the good integration being the hard bit to achieve.

 

Mike

[davewantsmoore]

27 minutes ago, almikel said:

keep in mind lots of the bass slam (kick in the chest frequencies) are around 100Hz - not sub territory, however subs add "weight" to the music.

When people talk about "missing thump" it invariably means they have large cancellations or dips in the frequency response.

 

Between roughly 60 and 240Hz, is a nightmare in most rooms due to the distances involved.... and settles down below 60Hz, in all but the largest rooms.

 

Paradoxically .... people think they are missing the very low notes (eg. << 60Hz) .... but what they are normally missing out on is the harmonics of those notes.... that make up the majority of the body/tone of the sound being reproduced.

 

The way out hearing works is that:

 

• the fundamental frequencies are easily filled in by the brain, and often not missed.
• the audibility of the fundamental of a low note.... eg. something at 40, 30, 20, lower Hz.... is very low.   ie. it has to be very loud to be heard.

Neither of these points are trying to say that VLF response isn't important..... just that usually it is not actually what people are missing when they report problems.

 

 

 

27 minutes ago, almikel said:

As a lazy DIYer, sealed subs have always appealed to me

Ports are useful when chasing high SPL that is safely above tuning.     Making them go low leads to problems, both with over excursion of the driver, but with port "compression" (unless the port is extremely large and aerodynamic).

 

.... but all else equal (difficult, lol) .... EQed to the same response, it will sound the same as sealed.

 

[davewantsmoore]

4 hours ago, Essence said:

Rythmik G25HP? Or a PSA with neo/ipal drivers.

Ipal driver is very good....  but we are talking stupendous SPL.  Priced accordingly.

 

PS - I'm confused as to why PSA aren't using the Powersoft amplifiers.

 

[Essence]

1 hour ago, davewantsmoore said:

Ipal driver is very good....  but we are talking stupendous SPL.  Priced accordingly.

 

PS - I'm confused as to why PSA aren't using the Powersoft amplifiers.

 

Its nice to have an excess of headroom, just because it can play loud doesn't mean you have to run it loud. Not to familiar with Powersoft amplifiers but since earlier this year Tom has moved all amp production in house, more control over designs, better QC and faster product development cycles. I believe Rythmik uses hypex modules? Both IcePower/Hypex are well established and proven in the amplifier space. 

Edited June 29, 2020 by Essence

[Red Spade Audio]

12 hours ago, davewantsmoore said:

When people talk about "missing thump" it invariably means they have large cancellations or dips in the frequency response.

I've seen this many times in systems that I've tested, it's quite common. I've also seen many cases where the setup wasn't lacking in this aspect but they hadn't dialed in a suitable room curve. I've seen many systems where they actually have more actual in-room bass extension than they realised, yet they didn't have the impression of enough extension. Quite often there is a big difference between what people have and what they think they have.

 

19 hours ago, DSD_Fan said:

I'm not after low shake the house subs. But more kick drum thumps and authority to my music.

If you are talking about that live concert experience, in which you feel the kick drum thump in your chest, this is an experience very few people achieve at home. Most likely you won't get there if all you do is upgrade your sub. Even the Fathom range will fall short of delivering that chest thump in many rooms.

 

Firstly, most subs lack the necessary fire power. Beyond this, it's also about having the right number of subs for your room, optimising their positions, and correctly integrating them. There are several steps involved, all of them essential.

[spottie]

13 minutes ago, Red Spade Audio said:

 

Firstly, most subs lack the necessary fire power.

What would be a ballpark figure for minimum rms power per cubic metre for "live concert experience" in a typical home? Would be great to hear from your experience.

 

[spottie]

1 hour ago, davewantsmoore said:

Paradoxically .... people think they are missing the very low notes (eg. << 60Hz) .... but what they are normally missing out on is the harmonics of those notes.... that make up the majority of the body/tone of the sound being reproduced.

 

The way out hearing works is that:

 

• the fundamental frequencies are easily filled in by the brain, and often not missed.
• the audibility of the fundamental of a low note.... eg. something at 40, 30, 20, lower Hz.... is very low.   ie. it has to be very loud to be heard.

Neither of these points are trying to say that VLF response isn't important..... just that usually it is not actually what people are missing when they report problems.

 

This is the best explanation I've ever read. Thank you.

[DSD_Fan]

Back in the day I had a Velodyne ULD 18 sub. During the train/bus crash in the movie the Fugitive, that thing made me feel nauseous and the slam I felt on my chest was awesome. Perhaps I am just too old now (lol) as I used to 'lose my stomach' going over dips or on roller coasters but not since I was in my teens have I felt that.

I guess to sum it all up, is that I won't notice anything buy side stepping to JL subs. Just thought they might have more impact/authority in the music realm. 

 

As stated, I am happy with the SVS's in the room (and a ugly room from a sonic perspective) Perhaps I'll just add 2 more down the track to see if that makes any difference. 

Wish I could get someone over who knows their stuff to see how it really sounds, as to me (and I know that's all that really matters) it sounds great. 

But you know........ Always wanting more lol


Thanks for the input everyone, I do appreciate it 

 

 

[almikel]

13 minutes ago, Red Spade Audio said:

If you are talking about that live concert experience, in which you feel the kick drum thump in your chest, this is an experience very few people achieve at home.

 

1 hour ago, davewantsmoore said:

Paradoxically .... people think they are missing the very low notes (eg. << 60Hz) .... but what they are normally missing out on is the harmonics of those notes.... that make up the majority of the body/tone of the sound being reproduced.

Interestingly when built my 18" mid bass speakers I had amazing bass slam (kick in the chest), and was very happy, but only on listening to other systems realised I was missing some of the bottom octave...adding the tapped horn sub filled that in, but didn't add any "slam", just "weight".

I've never tried to isolate the "live kick drum" feel to determine how much of it is sub vs mid bass...there's no doubt the kick drum extends down into sub territory.

 

27 minutes ago, Red Spade Audio said:

Firstly, most subs lack the necessary fire power. Beyond this, it's also about having the right number of subs for your room, optimising their positions, and correctly integrating them. There are several steps involved, all of them essential.

yes I've been lazy - my single tapped horn sub was designed as a "heavy lifter" with plenty of headroom, and has integrated nicely with some EQ/delay...at some stage I'll add another sub.

 

Mike

[Red Spade Audio]

12 hours ago, spottie said:

What would be a ballpark figure for minimum rms power per cubic metre for "live concert experience" in a typical home? Would be great to hear from your experience.

When you reach a midbass level of 120 dB, I'd call that the "chest thump threshold."

 

That's the easy part.

 

There are too many variables to give a definitive answer in terms of power/m3. The room in particular adds so much uncertainty.

 

If someone wanted to actually design a system to reach a specific target, it would take a process with several steps. It involves things like testing sub positions and measuring the actual response in the listening position for a known reference. Armed with the right data, I can then work backwards to determine how to reach the target. Power is just one of the parameters.

 

In reality, people don't usually have a specific SPL target in mind.

[davewantsmoore]

3 hours ago, almikel said:

I've never tried to isolate the "live kick drum" feel to determine how much of it is sub vs mid bass...there's no doubt the kick drum extends down into sub territory.

Definitely.... but it "goes missing" even more if you have a big ol dip somewhere through 60-200Hz