1 x Ported Box Subwoofer -vs- 2 x Sealed Box Subwoofers?

[QuinnInSydney]

@spottie Thanks for the tip. But for me WestCoast HiFi comes up as $1999 for the SB-2000 Pro's. Maybe I missed the sale, or they adjust prices according to location  Not a huge problem as I feel it may be a bit premature to commit to a pair of subs anyway - everything I'm learning on this thread has me diving back into researching my options and I foresee the need for an audition or two before I buy.

 

Congrats on your purchase though! I eagerly await your report on how well going dual has gone for you  

[Snoopy8]

There is often limited DSP within subs, hence my suggestion to get a seperate DSP. Yes, you can use a PC to do DSP as an alternative. 

 

Regarding your sketch, how will you switch between music and movies?  Also, as you progress along your music journey, you may want to look at improving your PC as the source. There are many tweaks that can be done, including improving the operating system, power supply etc. Also, consider using a dedicated streamer. 

 

My diagram was meant to encourage you to think about your setup and how you can have both music and movies in a setup sharing mains and subs.  There are other ways of course...

 

P/s no need to apologise, no such thing as naive questions... All of us are here to learn from one another.

[spottie]

42 minutes ago, QuinnInSydney said:

@spottie Thanks for the tip. But for me WestCoast HiFi comes up as $1999 for the SB-2000 Pro's. Maybe I missed the sale, or they adjust prices according to location  Not a huge problem as I feel it may be a bit premature to commit to a pair of subs anyway - everything I'm learning on this thread has me diving back into researching my options and I foresee the need for an audition or two before I buy.

 

Congrats on your purchase though! I eagerly await your report on how well going dual has gone for you  

The website is not helpful, you probably need to give them a call (probably the Cannington store where I got mine from). But I agree, you need to understand what you need first. They have 20% off all stocks twice every year so if you can still buy it cheap at the end of the year if it is what you want.

[QuinnInSydney]

13 hours ago, POV said:

I find this thread confusing.  You've said that you mostly listen to music at moderate levels above, if that's the case why would you target a purchase decision for subs around ultra low bass extension for occasional movie watching?  Surely it makes most sense to set up your system for the way you use it most!?

I understand how this can be confusing (as I confuse myself plenty often!) as I do spend more time listening to music. But when it comes to reproducing low bass, I place a higher priority on doing it well for movie watching. Here's my attempt at a quasi-quantified explanation...

 

...Why I feel I need low bass output for only 20 minutes of music listening a week:

- Take the system pictured in my original post, in happier days past when it was set up and positioned properly. In one given week I'd have music playing on it for a total of 10 hours

- Of the 10 hours of music listening, I'd spend 9 of those hours doing other things at the same time (reading, chopping up food for dinner, stretching after a run, etc) and therefore not completely paying attention to the music, and definitely not noticing the depths of bass being plumbed

- In that 1 hour of music listening in which I'm attentively _listening_ I'd say 40 minutes of that is listening to stuff that doesn't have much, if any at all, ultra low bass content below ~40Hz. Even in my larger space, my little Velodyne SPL800r does an admirable job of reproducing driving basslines with decent rhythm and impact above that point

- It's only in that last 20 minutes a week of listening to music where I'd say to myself "gee I wish I could _feel_ Beethoven's contrabassoon" or "John William's timpani player has weak arms today"

 

...Why I feel it's more important to have low bass output for 2 hours of movie watching a week:

- The same system in the same week would have movies/TV playing for a total of 6 hours

- Of the 6 hours of movie watching, I'd still spend 3 hours doing other things at the same time, but because the medium requires my ears AND eyes it's harder for my attention to stray

- In that remaining 3 hours of attentively watching movies, I'd say 1 hour of that is spent watching quieter fair like British murder mysteries (I'm old I know)

- Which leaves me attentively watching 2 hours a week of escapist, action-driven fair (even worse because I'm old) where I really want to feel the thud of T-Rex's steps as he walks across my screen or the impact when the X-Wing gets torn apart by an explosion

 

...TL;DR I'm a chronic multitasker who doesn't pay enough damn attention, thus investing in new subwoofers purely for the few moments of joy when listen to music isn't enough. I need them to spend more time making my movies go 'boom' 

 

But at the end of the day as @Snoopy8 mentioned, I don't think I need to compromise between movies OR music. From what I'm learning from this thread, with enough extension, power headroom, and EQ adjustability, I can set up ideal listening curves for both movies AND music 

 

And I don't have my heart set on SVS subwoofers yet. They just happen to be familiar examples that I can compare in my 1 x ported box vs 2 x sealed box quandary. (Admittedly I agree with @spottie. In my own research and auditioning thus far I've found SVS to have the best specs / features / adjustability for the price.) So thank you @POV for your suggestions on the KEF's and REL's. I'm looking into them now, which means more research and auditioning before I commit... but that's half the fun of this hobby, no? 

 

[QuinnInSydney]

24 minutes ago, spottie said:

The website is not helpful, you probably need to give them a call (probably the Cannington store where I got mine from). They have 20% off all stocks twice every year so if you can still buy it cheap at the end of the year if it is what you want.

That advice is awesome. Thank you!

[QuinnInSydney]

1 hour ago, Snoopy8 said:

Yes, you can use a PC to do DSP as an alternative. 

 

Regarding your sketch, how will you switch between music and movies?  Also, as you progress along your music journey, you may want to look at improving your PC as the source. There are many tweaks that can be done, including improving the operating system, power supply etc.

On my PC switching between music and movies is done purely through software: Video LAN player and streaming services like Disney+ for movies, and Winamp, WMP (old school!) and Spotify Premium streaming for music. All audio is currently output via USB to an Audioengine DAC.

 

In my reading, I may have an issue with running DSP on my computer, as the USB audio may bypass any sound adjusting software. At which point I may switch to audio being output via Toslink optical. (But that may very well bypass DSP software too!) I won't really know until I try...

 

And yes, agreed I can look into other upgrades to the PC itself. (But my first order of priority at the moment is still getting the speakers into place first.) Endless, this hobby is... 

 

 

[gwurb]

I don't know how well KEFs would do with being the EQ and filter for the system as I never tried. They wouldn't give you individual control of each speaker and sub for room correction.

 

For the best effect you would want to do room correction.

 

Have you considered

Arcam AVR20/30 or AV40?

It has DIRAC Live with dual subwoofer support from DIRAC. Would be spot on for room correction.

 

Another alternative that would work with existing AVR/preprocessor

https://www.minidsp.com/products/dirac-series/ddrc-24

 

I think the Arcam would be a better option as there would not be an ADC/DAC conversion but MiniDSP is cheaper.

 

The alternative is one of the Audyssey products but I would recommend bypassing Audyssey for music, which means that you wouldn't have room correction for music.

[POV]

11 hours ago, QuinnInSydney said:

One of the main features for which I'm looking in an upgrade is DSP and adjustable EQ built into the powered bookshelf speakers, and the same built into the subs. Hopefully my system will look like this... (In fact, the KEF LSX bookshelves I have coming in supposedly have a high quality, onboard DAC. I'll do the requisite listening comparison, but that means I may even get rid of the separate DAC in the below diagram)...

) @POV @AudioGeek @gwurb Will I suffer a significant loss of quality or adjustability by relying on the speakers' onboard DSP's and EQ's instead of introducing a separate DSP / EQ unit into the audio path?

 

Apologies to everyone if my questions here seem naive. I've only ever had a 'dabblers' level of experience in this stuff thus far, and my pace of learning can rightly be classified as 'turtle'  And thanks in advance for your continuing education of Quinn!

 

So there's a lot of questions being asked simultaneously and lots of advice being given.    I think I am in a reasonable place to offer some assistance since I actually have hands on experience with the gear you are considering purchasing.  With regards to the above quoted section:

 

I have experimented heaps with external DACs vs onboard DAC in both the KEF LSX and LS50W with a variety of results.  In general will say that the onboard DACs in both units is very well sorted and highly resolving regardless of content.   Also it's certainly worth keeping in mind that the LSX you are considering will do an ADC (analogue to digital conversion) for any signal input via the analogue in (note it's an aux in 3.5mm). This can't be defeated or bypassed as the speaker does it's crossover and DSP in the digital domain.  Where this is somewhat complicate for the LSX is that it does not have an asynchronous USB input, and most PCs do not have an optical output.  If your PC situation lacks optical then this means that you'll either need to invest in a box to USB to Optical (Matrix Audio X-SPDIF 2 as an example); or utilise a USB DAC and connect via analogue in.  I currently use a set of LSX nearfield on my desk in the office and utilise an Audioquest Dragonfly USB DAC.  I compared this and the Matrix Audio unit and preferred the sound via the Dragonfly and Analogue in....

 

With regards to the LSX onboard DSP and EQ; it is very basic regards sub integration, even in expert mode you will only have settings for:  Phase Correction, high pass mode, sub out low-pass frequency, sub gain, and sub polarity.  Whilst this set of options is most likely suitable for the average punter (particularly if combined with a sub that has some degree of DSP/EQ onboard) ; it's not going to go near what's possible via a separate DSP unit like a minidsp as example.

 

But...and imho it's a BIG but:

 

I don't want to create total confusion for you, but I just have to tell you I really think your entire plan want's revisiting!  You are talking about spending circa $3200 on two very powerful, high output subwoofers to run with a very small pair of active bookshelfs where you are essentially spending a total of circa $1800 on DAC; Preamp; Amplifier; and Speaker....and all of this to utilise in a pretty large room.

 

End of the day, the way you spend your money is your prerogative, but I fear that the plan you are constructing is not a path that will lead to you being satisfied across the longer term, and most likely lead to a degree of tail chasing upgraditis!  I really think you should consider a different distribution of the $5000 to develop a more balanced system that is more room appropriate.  I really think you are going to find the LSX a bit lost and hollow sounding in that large room.

 

As one example; you could take your $5000 and upgrade from LSX to LS50W (Circa $3000); IISO Acoustics isolation stand (since you are using on a entertainment unit circa $400); and a single subwoofer (circa $1600).   That room is still big for LS50W but can tell you from experience it's much more able to fill a larger space, with a more rich and wholesome mid bass, and midrange.  It is a much better fit for your needs than the LSX.  You can experiment with placement and EQ of a single sub first, and see if it is satisfactory and then worry about adding a second sub across the longer term if see fit.  This is just one example mind you there's many ways you could spend $5000 on a 2.1 stereo system....

 

Sorry for the epic post, but please have a think before you spend your hard earned.  I have torn up literally tens of thousands of dollars by spending first and thinking later over the years!

 

 

Edited June 29, 2020 by POV
splelling

[Irek]

23 hours ago, POV said:

Yes I realise but in a subsequent post OP notes that system is used primarily for music at moderate listening levels, and that would utilise two smaller subs (so therefore use of 2 T7i subs was my assumption)

 

So I have an SVS SB-2000 and a REL T7i here right now and have actually compared them extensively in my second room.     This room is 4.2m wide by 6.7m long with standard ceiling height.  Yes the SVS digs deeper and louder, but the REL integrates more easily and evenly with my main speakers and generally sounds cleaner and more linear across the majority of the frequency range.  On balance, music sounds better and more enjoyable with the REL in my system and room.  2 of them even better and I’ll almost certainly add a second one once I sell the SVS.

 

Obviously it’s room, system, and use dependant but I just don’t agree that SVS subs are somehow a vastly superior value proposition than options from other quality manufacturers is all.

 

Anyhow, am not looking for a flame war with SVS fans, just advocating that the OP keeps options open and doesn’t limited choice to one brand.

I would add that Rel T7i has been design and build primarily for music.

For HT purposes Rel has HT serie that is similar to SVS.  

[KRSDarwin]

Hi Quinn,

 

I agree with @POV but would also add that I find my Paradigm Seismic 110 sub (about $2,100) an aesthetically good looking sub of small stature that produces great results from a sealed enclosure. 
 

Good luck!!

Edited June 29, 2020 by KRSDarwin

[davewantsmoore]

On 28/06/2020 at 9:10 PM, spottie said:

I hope you've realised that the question being asked is a sub for both music and movie. We are talking about a large room at 5m x 4m x 3m so we need a quality sub to fill the space.

It may be a small room as far as "what most people have" .... but in accoustic terms this is very very much a "small room".   ie. the principles of "small room accoustics apply".   This means:

• A decent amount of "room gain" at VLF
• A high "schroeder frequency" .... meaning "bass issus" extend high(er) in frequency (ie. more likely to have holes at frequencies at and above subwoofer to main crossover frequency)
• Less room to accomodate multiple subs or positioning of sources and listeners.

The room size (unless (very) "large") is not relevant to the size/capability of the subwoofer .... what is relevant is how loud and low the subwoofer will be asked to play.

 

On 28/06/2020 at 9:10 PM, spottie said:

I do not think small subs will work in the room.

Depends on max SPL.

 

EQ can take the subwoofer very low, if the maximum SPL is limited.    Although that statement doesn't so much apply to small ported subwoofers.

 

[davewantsmoore]

22 hours ago, QuinnInSydney said:

In my reading, I may have an issue with running DSP on my computer, as the USB audio may bypass any sound adjusting software.

No... it will work fine.

 

[QuinnInSydney]

20 hours ago, POV said:

So there's a lot of questions being asked simultaneously and lots of advice being given.  

Yes, this thread has gone down some rabbit holes and I'm getting waaay more (valuable!) advice then I bargained for. Like listening to Keith Urban, I kinda hate it but I kinda love it 

 

20 hours ago, POV said:

Sorry for the epic post, but please have a think before you spend your hard earned. 

I really appreciate you, along with everybody else here, taking the time and sharing your experience and expertise. That's why my reply is going to end up being more epic (epicer?) - not because I'm trying to defend my decisions, but because I figure the more you know about my situation the more applicable your advice can be. So are you ready for a long one...? Strap yourself in, Gladys!

 

20 hours ago, POV said:

I have experimented heaps with external DACs vs onboard DAC in both the KEF LSX and LS50W with a variety of results.  In general will say that the onboard DACs in both units is very well sorted and highly resolving regardless of content... Where this is somewhat complicate for the LSX is that it does not have an asynchronous USB input.

It's encouraging to hear that the KEF's have decent onboard DACs!  Fortunately my PC does have optical out. So the plan is to do some A/B testing between connecting the LSX's via optical -vs- via my Audioengine DAC and analog cable, and I'll keep whatever sounds better.

 

20 hours ago, POV said:

With regards to the LSX onboard DSP and EQ; it is very basic regards sub integration... Whilst this set of options is most likely suitable for the average punter (particularly if combined with a sub that has some degree of DSP/EQ onboard) ; it's not going to go near what's possible via a separate DSP unit like a minidsp as example.

Acknowledged re my dependence on the sub(s)' onboard DSP/EQ. This is again one of the reasons I'm drawn towards the SVS SB-2000 Pro's above its peers, as it _seems_ to have a more granular amount of adjustability. (Hopefully I can confirm this the next time I head to the store and do some auditioning and comparing.) Regardless, I may find whatever sub(s) I bring in won't have enough adjustability to sound 'correct' in my space. So I'm very willing to subsequently bring in some sort of mic + measurement and dsp hardware/software about which you, @gwurb, and others in this thread are starting to educate me.

 

Or maybe the speakers' onboard adjustments will end up being enough for me, and I don't need to bother with any of that. If it means I'm satisfied with the sound, I'll count myself lucky and wear my "average punter" colours with pride 

 

(By the way I've had junior chipmunk experience with this type of room correction, as my current Velodyne SPL800r has a built-in mic input and room correction function. It's been very useful, and fun to play with!)

 

20 hours ago, POV said:

I don't want to create total confusion for you, but I just have to tell you I really think your entire plan want's revisiting!  You are talking about spending circa $3200 on two very powerful, high output subwoofers to run with a very small pair of active bookshelfs where you are essentially spending a total of circa $1800 on DAC; Preamp; Amplifier; and Speaker.

Trust me I confuse myself and revisit my plan every minute or three! It did dawn on me that I risk spending a disproportionate amount of money on the sub(s).

 

First, remember that a good part of that $3200 on sub(s) is paying for their dedicated preamp and amplifier too. And if they have a decent enough EQ (a big if I know!) than the $3200 is also paying for the DSP. 

 

Second, ~$3000 seems like the price I have to pay to get that last half-octave of bass, as evenly distributed as possible, in my listening space. Even though I only listen at moderate levels, I'm learning that it takes a lot of driver + amp + enclosure capability (aka $$$) to play 20Hz at the same perceived, moderate level as the rest of the spectrum. (This is me flexing my newfound knowledge on equal loudness contours. Thanks again @davewantsmoore for the tip!) My own lived experience with my current set up kind of proves this 2:1 (subwoofer:bookshelves) spending ratio to be true. Over the past many years I found the best 'balance' for my Audioengine A5 bookshelves is my Velodyne SPL800r subwoofer, which cost twice as much.

 

We're talking here like I'm set on buying a pair of SVS SB-2000 Pro's. I most definitely am not. If I had the time today (alas I don't, sigh) I'd go out to audition and compare/contrast:

- a pair of the SVS's

- a pair of KEF Kube 12b's (thanks to your tip, POV)

- a pair of REL HT-1205's (thanks @Irek for the tip!)

- whatever single ported box sub the salesperson can recommend, that fits my size constraints

The advantage the latter three have over the SVS's is that they cost less, and therefore would afford me more money to spend on things like better mains, room correction, etc.

 

20 hours ago, POV said:

I really think you should consider a different distribution of the $5000 to develop a more balanced system that is more room appropriate.  I really think you are going to find the LSX a bit lost and hollow sounding in that large room... As one example; you could take your $5000 and upgrade from LSX to LS50W (Circa $3000); IISO Acoustics isolation stand (since you are using on a entertainment unit circa $400)... That room is still big for LS50W but can tell you from experience it's much more able to fill a larger space, with a more rich and wholesome mid bass, and midrange.  It is a much better fit for your needs than the LSX.

My shiny, new LSX's arrived yesterday  I know they're not the ideal speaker for my space, but below is the reason why I bought them. Keep in mind, as mentioned in my post, that my needs are (in order of priority):

1) Aesthetics and fit with the visual order of my living space

2) Listening to movies and music at moderate levels

 

So why did I buy the KEF LSX's?

- I covet the way KEF's latest bookshelves / standmounts sound. I know their signature sound is divisive, but I enjoy their warm, resonate-y tone. (At least I do in auditions at the store with its ideal listening environment. We'll see if I still feel this way in my more challenging space...)

- Looks-wise, the LSX's in green and gold are the perfect size and fit for my living space. They're the first _ever_ bit of modern electronic kit to get a "Oooo those are cute. Why can't we put those on our shelves?" response from my wife

- I'm already quite satisfied with how my Audioengine A5's fill my listening space, at my moderate ~85db listening levels. (I admit if I crank it above that the audio starts to fall apart. Tones get shrill, voices become harsh, cats run away screeching, etc.) Size-wise I expect the LSX's to do equally well at filling my space. (But again, we'll see...)

- Most importantly, to make up for stuffing me around, a store here offered me a deal on the LSX's at a price I couldn't refuse 

- Once I hook up the LSX's I'll do some A/B comparison with the Audioengines. Hopefully they're a worthy upgrade and I'll hang on to them and eventually swap them for a pair of green and gold ones. (I could only get a deal on a white pair.) If they're not a worthy upgrade I'll sell them used and end up at break-even.

 

Having said all that I'd _love_ to bring in a pair of LS50W's. I totally agree they'll give me more quality sound, at higher volume levels (should I ever want to go that high) in my space. So why haven't I bought them yet?

- None of the colours in which they're currently offered excite me. The white and gold ones could kinda work in my space, but meh

- They're too deep to fit in my bookshelves. I'd have to sit them on top of the TV bench which would somewhat violate aesthetics (but something I could overcome if they were in the right colour)

- And sitting them on the TV bench may compromise audio quality (I'd have to angle them 5 to 10 degrees towards ears seated on the couch.)

- Most importantly, nobody's yet offered me a pair at a price I can't refuse 

- But seriously, if after comparing them to my Audioengines I decide to get rid of my LSX's, the LS50W's will be the next candidate on the 'buy' list

 

20 hours ago, POV said:

I think I am in a reasonable place to offer some assistance since I actually have hands on experience with the gear you are considering purchasing. 

I see your experience and thoughtfulness, POV. And your input is very much appreciated!

 

 

Edited June 30, 2020 by QuinnInSydney
clarity!

[Irek]

Sounds exciting, I think it's going to be a very cool system.

[Irek]

Just to add a little bit more of visual confusion.

 

[gwurb]

47 minutes ago, Irek said:

 

 

Looks nice

DIY? What's the subwoofer driver and the amp?

[Irek]

55 minutes ago, gwurb said:

Looks nice

DIY? What's the subwoofer driver and the amp?

https://m8audio.com/product/sub-oneten/

[QuinnInSydney]

2 hours ago, Irek said:

Is that an enclosure made out of lightweight composite, and a driver cone made of reinforced, inert wood?!? Are you mindh#cking with me?!? 

Edited June 30, 2020 by QuinnInSydney
more emoji means more fun!

[Irek]

11 minutes ago, QuinnInSydney said:

Is that an enclosure made out of lightweight composite, and a driver cone made of reinforced, inert wood?!? Are you mindh#cking with me?!? 

Driver is made of flax .

https://www.focal.com/en/home-audio/high-fidelity-speakers/subwoofers/sub-1000-f

[Irek]

http://www.adelaidespeakers.com/subwoofers.html

[POV]

On 30/06/2020 at 2:17 AM, QuinnInSydney said:

Yes, this thread has gone down some rabbit holes and I'm getting waaay more (valuable!) advice then I bargained for. Like listening to Keith Urban, I kinda hate it but I kinda love it 

 

I really appreciate you, along with everybody else here, taking the time and sharing your experience and expertise. That's why my reply is going to end up being more epic (epicer?) - not because I'm trying to defend my decisions, but because I figure the more you know about my situation the more applicable your advice can be. So are you ready for a long one...? Strap yourself in, Gladys!

 

 

 

Fair enough, seems like you have given it all a fair bit of thought and have a plan, so will wish you all the best and leave you with the simple thought that at the end of the day the only thing that really matter is that you enjoy your system in the way you want to use it.  Don't get too caught up in specs and peoples opinions on products that they've never seen or heard and let your ears and wallet be the judge.   Have fun!

[QuinnInSydney]

11 hours ago, Irek said:

http://www.adelaidespeakers.com/subwoofers.html

Thanks for the tip @Irek. At a quick glance, the overall dimensions of their cabinets don't work for my space. I'll try giving them a ring to see if they do custom enclosures. If not I'll definitely keep them in mind for future applications.

 

Regardless, the fact that companies like this exist at all makes me happy 

Edited July 1, 2020 by QuinnInSydney
added some thoughts

[QuinnInSydney]

11 hours ago, POV said:

... wish you all the best and leave you with the simple thought that at the end of the day the only thing that really matter is that you enjoy your system in the way you want to use it.  Don't get too caught up in specs and peoples opinions on products that they've never seen or heard and let your ears and wallet be the judge.   Have fun!

Thanks, POV!

[Irek]

2 hours ago, QuinnInSydney said:

Thanks for the tip @Irek. At a quick glance, the overall dimensions of their cabinets don't work for my space. I'll try giving them a ring to see if they do custom enclosures. If not I'll definitely keep them in mind for future applications.

 

Regardless, the fact that companies like this exist at all makes me happy 

I like cool looking HiFi as well. I'm not surprised that Kef is selling so many speakers.

BTW Greg Osborne can make subwoofer with flax driver.

[deafenears]

@QuinnInSydney, how about 2 Rythmik L12s? Small and compact enough and will likely fit in that space, or small enough to move around and find better placements in your room.

 

If visual symmetry is really important, block out that space and have the sub behind it. But then again, the TV isn't  centered and you don't have two large clocks