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NAIM PRE AMP WITH NON NAIM POWER AMPS


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Hi

 

Anyone used a Naim pre-Amp with a non-Naim power amp?

 

Main Question: Is the Naim character still evident?

 

Here's some bold statements

 

I love the Pace, Rhythm, and Timing that you get with early Naim gear, but would love more soundstage and detail that seems to be offered by other brands.

 

I was thinking my NAC62 coupled with a NordOne Power Amp, which I am told reflects rather closely what the pre-amp supplies (good or bad).

 

Any thoughts??

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Many years ago I had a Naim 72 with Nap power supply going into a non Naim power amp (Metaxas Solitaire) connected by a Din to stereo rca cable, I don't think I've ever heard a pre or power amplifier that  "has any rhythm and timing" it should just be amplifying accurately the recording including any air & harmonics, good control of bass, accurate portrayal of midrange and wide frequency response.

 

The artist , musicians performing are the only ones that have the rhythm and timing IMO

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On 27/06/2020 at 10:18 PM, Mjj said:

Hi

 

Anyone used a Naim pre-Amp with a non-Naim power amp?

 

For the last 10 years or so.  NAC12s (heavily modified) with an AKSA 55 (which killed my NAP 250, when I compared them).

 

Quote

Main Question: Is the Naim character still evident?

 

No (thank goodness)!  :lol:

 

However, I would have to say that early Naim preamps deliberately have a limited HF response - so they don't go much higher than 30kHz.  They were built this way to stop Naim power amps from become unstable at HFs - all my 12s does to my AKSA 55 ... is limit its bandwidth.  :(

 

Quote

I love the Pace, Rhythm, and Timing that you get with early Naim gear

 

You've been drinking too much Naim KoolAid!  :lol:

 

Quote

but would love more soundstage and detail that seems to be offered by other brands.

 

That, you can certainly get.  :)  But whether the NordOne delivers this ... I have no idea.

 

Quote

I was thinking my NAC62 coupled with a NordOne Power Amp, which I am told reflects rather closely what the pre-amp supplies (good or bad).

 

Any thoughts??

 

There are many amps that you could use, apart from a Hypex-based Nord One amp.  But they would probably cost more.  :)

 

That being said, your NAC62 will probably 'shape' any amp's HF extension.  :(

 

Andy

 

Edited by andyr
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Andy, yes would agree the Naim seemed a bit "rolled off", suppose that might appeal to some people,  the amp was neatly wired and well laid out, had a simple circuit, but as a DIY person I don't know that buying new at the time I purchased them was good value for money looking at the parts count (i.e. looking inside a HiCap). I'm sure the new models would be nice.

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  • 2 weeks later...
On 28/06/2020 at 9:12 PM, Rhythm Willie said:

 I've ever heard a pre or power amplifier that  "has any rhythm and timing" it should just be amplifying accurately the recording including any air & harmonics, good control of bass, accurate portrayal of midrange and wide frequency response.

 

The artist , musicians performing are the only ones that have the rhythm and timing IMO

Every amplifier has it's own timing and rhythm very often far from accurate. 

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I did an a/b betweeen a Mark Levinsen No.27 and a NAP250 from around the same era. Played “invisible man” by Queen. Drum roll at the beginning sounded definitely “faster” and more realistic, the ML sluggish by comparison. Speakers are jamo c807 which are pretty laid back (sadly). But the Naim particularly has “lifted” them. I had a friend there he agreed and said,  “I wouldn’t have believed it unless Id heard it”. I’ve had the ML for several months and within days of getting the Naim I noticed my wife uncharacteristically singing along, even to Bohemian Rhapsody. 

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I wonder if they are just “fast” amps. Leading to a better perceived timing since the time to amplify say the first sound of a drum being hit is faster and the timing cue would be taken from when the drum is first hit not later during the loudest part of the drum beat??

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4 minutes ago, Mjj said:

I did an a/b betweeen a Mark Levinsen No.27 and a NAP250 from around the same era. Played “invisible man” by Queen. Drum roll at the beginning sounded definitely “faster” and more realistic, the ML sluggish by comparison. Speakers are jamo c807 which are pretty laid back (sadly). But the Naim particularly has “lifted” them. I had a friend there he agreed and said,  “I wouldn’t have believed it unless Id heard it”. I’ve had the ML for several months and within days of getting the Naim I noticed my wife uncharacteristically singing along, even to Bohemian Rhapsody. 

At a schematic level, revealing perhaps the regulated power supply in the Naim is assisting.

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For me "fast" relates to amplifier's ability to start and stop speaker driver on time so we can perceive music as a separate notes (clear sound)

Slow amps can't stop the driver on time and we perceive music notes overlapping themselves (muddy sound)

 

Timing on the other hand is the alignment between music frequencies. The main purpose for musicians wearing headphones at recording studio is the get the timing/rhythm and pitch/tuning right.

 

Both types of amplifiers are playing exactly the same amount of notes at the same time.

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Thanks Irek,

 

That’s the direction I was thinking, the same track I mentioned the bass line was much more engaging and easier to follow.

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Just to clarify IMO, PRAT (Pace Rhythm And Timing) was a term concocted in the 70's by British HiFi reviewers to describe what our ears perceive when comparing amplifiers. 

 

With electricity travelling at up to 270,000 km per second and transistor switching speeds in the millions per second an amplifier can't really selectively speed up or slow down, but when our ears and brains hear an amplifier that might well have extended frequency response, but have a slight drop in mid or/and low base we perceive it as not having as much rhythm, especially if it is "slowish" as Irek has articulated due to power supply and design compromises.

 

Alternatively an amp that has good control and even a slight emphasis on mid base frequencies which could also not have extended high frequency response can sound quite rhythmic and "toe tapping". So yes our ears can tell the difference I just think that the PRAT term might have been a bit of a stretch in. technical terms.

Edited by Rhythm Willie
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All I can say is that I replaced my 32.5/Snaps/250 with ME25/ME850 in 2000 and the ME blew Naim away. I was living in the UK for a couple of years in the early 80’s and bought a complete Linn/Naim system as one did then. I had it pretty much intact until the late 90’s and it was very good, but it wasn’t mind blowing. The whole PRAT thing was coined by prats? Was/is there a Naim sound? Maybe. Is that a good thing? 

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18 minutes ago, mjs said:

All I can say is that I replaced my 32.5/Snaps/250 with ME25/ME850 in 2000 and the ME blew Naim away. I was living in the UK for a couple of years in the early 80’s and bought a complete Linn/Naim system as one did then. I had it pretty much intact until the late 90’s and it was very good, but it wasn’t mind blowing. The whole PRAT thing was coined by prats? Was/is there a Naim sound? Maybe. Is that a good thing? 

I had a similar journey,  a Naim fan when I just got out of high school...  Dreamt of owning the top of the line Naim/LInn combo that was inspired what my cousin had...   

Then we did a A/B with the Naim 32/250 with a DIY.  Needless to say no comparison,  sold the Naim and ended up the DIY route....   Now it’s even better and I’m not going back.   

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31 minutes ago, Addicted to music said:

I had a similar journey,  a Naim fan when I just got out of high school...  Dreamt of owning the top of the line Naim/LInn combo that was inspired what my cousin had...   

Then we did a A/B with the Naim 32/250 with a DIY.  Needless to say no comparison,  sold the Naim and ended up the DIY route....   Now it’s even better and I’m not going back.   

Yes, I also had the Linn/Naim combo and like you am still so happy now with my diy Aksa monoblocks, I am fortunate to be able to borrow some really good (and expensive) amps, just in case something "blows away" (what an overused term, another one is "palpable") my Aksas

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1 hour ago, Rhythm Willie said:

Just to clarify IMO, PRAT (Pace Rhythm And Timing) was a term concocted in the 70's by British HiFi reviewers to describe what our ears perceive when comparing amplifiers. 

 

With electricity travelling at up to 270,000 km per second and transistor switching speeds in the millions per second an amplifier can't really selectively speed up or slow down, but when our ears and brains hear an amplifier that might well have extended frequency response, but have a slight drop in mid or/and low base we perceive it as not having as much rhythm, especially if it is "slowish" as Irek has articulated due to power supply and design compromises.

 

Alternatively an amp that has good control and even a slight emphasis on mid base frequencies which could also not have extended high frequency response can sound quite rhythmic and "toe tapping". So yes our ears can tell the difference I just think that the PRAT term might have been a bit of a stretch in. technical terms.

I compare amplifiers to musicians. All good musicians at some stage have to practise with metronome to learn the sens of rhythm and timing. There is strong relation between metronome and articulation. 

"Articulation is a fundamental musical parameter that determines how a single note or other discrete event is sounded. Articulations primarily structure an event's start and end, determining the length of its sound and the shape of its attack and decay."

 

"Staccato is a form of musical articulation. In modern notation, it signifies a note of shortened duration, separated from the note that may follow by silence."

 

"Portato, also mezzo-staccato in music denotes a smooth, pulsing articulation and is often notated by adding dots under slur markings." - longer staccato.

 

"Pizzicato is a playing technique that involves plucking the strings of a string instrument." - on other instruments it's very sharp staccato. 

 

Amplifiers are tuned to play either staccato (fast, engaging rhythm) or portato ( relax presentation), or something in between. 

 

Musicians to achieve higher speed they have to shorten notes , faster they play then shorten those notes have to be. Otherwise audience can perceive it as a muddy or slow sound.

 

Amplifiers are very similar to musicians ,except those agile are trying accurately play that fast music and those slow ones are extending notes usually on purpose to create more relax non fatiguing presentation at the cost of unclear sound.   

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43 minutes ago, Irek said:

I compare amplifiers to musicians. All good musicians at some stage have to practise with metronome to learn the sens of rhythm and timing. There is strong relation between metronome and articulation. 

"Articulation is a fundamental musical parameter that determines how a single note or other discrete event is sounded. Articulations primarily structure an event's start and end, determining the length of its sound and the shape of its attack and decay."

 

"Staccato is a form of musical articulation. In modern notation, it signifies a note of shortened duration, separated from the note that may follow by silence."

 

"Portato, also mezzo-staccato in music denotes a smooth, pulsing articulation and is often notated by adding dots under slur markings." - longer staccato.

 

"Pizzicato is a playing technique that involves plucking the strings of a string instrument." - on other instruments it's very sharp staccato. 

 

Amplifiers are tuned to play either staccato (fast, engaging rhythm) or portato ( relax presentation), or something in between. 

 

Musicians to achieve higher speed they have to shorten notes , faster they play then shorten those notes have to be. Otherwise audience can perceive it as a muddy or slow sound.

 

Amplifiers are very similar to musicians ,except those agile are trying accurately play that fast music and those slow ones are extending notes usually on purpose to create more relax non fatiguing presentation at the cost of unclear sound.   

There though needs to be correlation if possible between the perfection achieved by musicians, and the equipment we use to replay their recorded sound. 

 

Lets look at the short cuts why timing in amplifiers is presently only achieved at the DIY level

 

If we look at power supplies we find invariably a common power supply of single or both polarities, that is being asked to supply current at the output transistors or in the case of valves at their anodes, simultaneously as current at the beginning of the circuit, To mainstream manufacturers its a power supply- there is not enough recognition that the beginning of the circuit is any different to the end.   

 

We can simplify this by viewing as a reasonably long series circuit being addressed with DC current in numerous locations. Logic would say we can address some of the timing errors by using star positive and negative, however working against us is the larger current draw at the output. The answer rarely seen in commercial equipment is a dedicated supply for the beginning of the circuit.  However there is more to this than just supply current from two sources, as each needs to respond in tandem with the load, that is when there is higher current demand, or low current demand each section then can address the proper needs of amplification, which leads to...

 

Perhaps the most alarming missing element is the continued use of amplifiers to drive voltage, and to know nothing of the loudspeaker load. For those who have experimented with current drive of loudspeakers this will make sense   https://www.current-drive.info/  

 

The best circuit is one which in terms of its length is shortened to address, not from a ideal voltage gain specification, but  from the load itself addressing where amplification involving power supplies, should begin and at what rate. We would then see change where timing presently absent in amplifiers to a large degree, being demonstrated as having ongoing advantage for audio reproduction.

 

 

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