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Tubes and electronica


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I don't want to open up a can of worms (ahhh f*** it, yes I do!) but...

Ive been doing a bit of searching lately about tube pre/power amps (I don't have one, I DO want to try one) and have read about the 'warmth' and how they take the 'sharp edge' off the resolution making the music sound more 'real' and giving a better separation of instruments etc etc but what about when it comes to electronic music?

 

As electronic instruments aren't really meant to have a 'position' in the soundstage (me thinks) then could a tube amp cause a less realistic reproduction, or less 'true' to the original recording, or 'intention' of the recording. Does anyone think their Jean Michel Jarre sounds better or worse with valves for example?

 

I listen to nearly all genres (except thrash metal, stick that garbage where the sun don't shine :) ) and love my small collection of electronica from time to time. I have some middle eastern acoustic Oud mixed with electronics that is beyond divine.

 

Interested in others' thoughts.

(maybe this should be in the General HiFi discussion?)

 

 

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I think electronica sounds awesome with a good tube amp. Some of it has some great effects that really come through in a wow! way at times.

 

Awesome for acoustic too! Jazz and or Blues just lovely.

 

With SOME amps heavy thrash-y stuff may not fair well though, but depends on design and speakers of course.

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I love tubes but a decent SS amp still produces good sound.

The only place SS is noticeably superior is low frequencies as a tube amp has no where near the damping factor of a SS device. 

That being said they're both capable at reproducing our music well. 

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Valves make for an exciting journey. I concur with the view that (for me anyway) they improve my musical experience regardless of genre. Doubtless you're aware that you don't necessarily need an all tube system for great sound.

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6 hours ago, Colin Rutter said:

The only place SS is noticeably superior is low frequencies as a tube amp has no where near the damping factor of a SS device. 

I am always intrigued with the statement that SS is superior for low frequencies.

 

Not sure if this is based on a theory or listening experience or measurement? How about let say if we compare 100 watts solid state vs 100 wats push pull valve amp? Given that the bass driver is capable of producing 20 Hz or lower with an output around 90 db with the power provided, just for example.

 

I really want to know, not to start any flame war or anything. It would be good to know everyone's experiences about the above matter. Cheers.

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Close to 80 per cent of my listening is to electronica. I've found tube's in the system chain add a euphonic quality to the soundscapes my favorite artists create. A lot of the ambient and stripped back tech that I adore involves brooding and organic aural backdrops punctuated by effects and samples. In my experience, with this music, tube's add a level of depth and nuance that elevates the listening experience to something bordering on spiritual. Enjoy!

 

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7 hours ago, fell off the boat said:

I am always intrigued with the statement that SS is superior for low frequencies.

 

Not sure if this is based on a theory or listening experience or measurement? How about let say if we compare 100 watts solid state vs 100 wats push pull valve amp? Given that the bass driver is capable of producing 20 Hz or lower with an output around 90 db with the power provided, just for example.

 

I really want to know, not to start any flame war or anything. It would be good to know everyone's experiences about the above matter. Cheers.

Most speaker drivers have wildly variable impedance and phase angles in the bass range (below 100Hz.) Valve amps are designed around a presumed impedance, usually 8 ohm, and often with 4 ohm taps. As valves are excellent voltage amplification devices, but very poor current amplifiers, they rely on transformers to convert high voltage into a suitable current for the presumed speaker impedance. If the impedance varies a lot in the speaker, it will not be delivering the same power at different frequencies unless it's a relatively high current amplifier so the frequency response can vary from that expected. As valve amps also have a relatively high output impedance of their own, this will also change the response more with changing speaker impedance. Good valve amplifiers that are less prone to power fluctuations with impedance come at great expense, but they do exist. That said, real world matching can still create a perfectly fine frequency response and power capability in the bass range, so it's not like it's universally bad, it's just that solid state largely has no concerns unless it's a low current amplifier - but most affordable solid state amplifiers are NOT high current amplifiers, but they're still higher current than an equivalently priced valve amp of the same power.

 

Picking a random plot of impedance form the most recent stereophile speaker review I could find shows you how impedance and phase vary with frequency.

420PMC8fig1.jpg

 

Picking the most recent valve power amplifier on stereophile, this one at INSANE cost VAC statement 452, shows that even a super expensive valve amplifier's frequency response fluctuates with impedance (black is the simulated loudspeaker showing varying impedance, not a real speaker and not the one above.)

420VAC452fig1.jpg

 

Cheaper valve amplifiers, or valve amps not designed for high current (usually low power SETs) vary much more.  Still very expensive, Air Tight ATM-300R

119ATM300fig01.jpg

The amplifiers I chose were simply the two most recent power amps to demonstrate the difference, but cheaper amps vary much more.

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Before I share my comments below just putting my disclaimer out there that I am biased to valves since 2008 and until death do us part.

 

I think one important aspect that is often overlooked when using valve amps is the warm up time required for those toob heaters emitting their little buddies to perform at their best. The golden period often happens after 1 h 20 min and when you're locked in that zone you are floating in there with the music. I have never had that experience with SS amps even when left on for days before listening. Also, you need a few hundred hours for new toobs to come out of the closet and sound their best. After that you're in la la land.

 

Now about electronica music and valves. To my ears the bottom end sounds better than SS. Why? There are friggen layers of bass coming out that are separated and envelope you. Throw that friggen theory of SS amps being better in this area out the window - whether it's a 2A3 3 watter right through to a push pull KT88 100 watter the bass is there, it goes down, it's layered and yes when warmed up envelopes you. Some may think this is 2nd order harmonics and coloration coming into play but that is total BS. Try listening to SS for a few hours playing Oxygene and you will eventually turn the amp/s off due to fatigue and that ringing sensatation in your ears. That doesn't happen with warmed up valves. Throw some PNAU and Bob Sinclair stuff in the mix and compare and contrast to SS and you will see what you are missing out on with the boogie and the wow factor.

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3 hours ago, Galactic Soap said:

Close to 80 per cent of my listening is to electronica. I've found tube's in the system chain add a euphonic quality to the soundscapes my favorite artists create. A lot of the ambient and stripped back tech that I adore involves brooding and organic aural backdrops punctuated by effects and samples. In my experience, with this music, tube's add a level of depth and nuance that elevates the listening experience to something bordering on spiritual. Enjoy!

 

 

23 minutes ago, xlr8or said:

I think one important aspect that is often overlooked when using valve amps is the warm up time required for those toob heaters emitting their little buddies to perform at their best. The golden period often happens after 1 h 20 min and when you're locked in that zone you are floating in there with the music. I have never had that experience with SS amps even when left on for days before listening. Also, you need a few hundred hours for new toobs to come out of the closet and sound their best. After that you're in la la land.

 

Now about electronica music and valves. To my ears the bottom end sounds better than SS. Why? There are friggen layers of bass coming out that are separated and envelope you. Throw that friggen theory of SS amps being better in this area out the window - whether it's a 2A3 3 watter right through to a push pull KT88 100 watter the bass is there, it goes down, it's layered and yes when warmed up envelopes you. Some may think this is 2nd order harmonics and coloration coming into play but that is total BS. Try listening to SS for a few hours playing Oxygene and you will eventually turn the amp/s off due to fatigue and that ringing sensatation in your ears. That doesn't happen with warmed up valves. Throw some PNAU and Bob Sinclair stuff in the mix and compare and contrast to SS and you will see what you are missing out on with the boogie and the wow factor.

?Agree with both of these. But I too am wedded to tubes..

 

I've run Duntech Barons with big 845 monos and it sounded awesome, Rufus at over 100dB and rocking! But, if I had've tried to push these speakers with a 3w SET it probably wouldn't have worked so well.

Also, if bass is a big factor(which it is for me), I have found that even with SS a sub is needed.

 

So go valves for the speakers and a sub (or two!) for that massive bass envelope and you're home - Good thing is you can turn the sub off at any time!

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I don't try to justify/explain/apologize for it anymore, indeed haven't for years, but I always come back to the experience that is valves (and vinyl). I have a Nait XS2, and a Class D set up, which I do use sometimes, but it is valves  that have the presence to me. I use a sub.

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Goodaye all

 

Can l sit on the fence?

Love my Sansui AU717 SS sounds detailed and fresh.

Love my Sansui AU70 tube sounds detailed and warm and has a  bonus room heater.

So it comes down to mood.

l can listen to Ultravox through either and so do the neighbors.

 

Had a AU101 l was playing after l overhualed it yesterday playing on my main speakers l think its the best of both worlds Capacitor coupled solid state.

Just as well l have a few of its big brother then.

 

regards Bruce  (fence sitter)

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I have evolved over many systems and more recently to valves, and now have 2 valve pre/power amps systems and 2 valve pre/SS power amp systems.  

 

What is common is that all my key systems are now valve pre.  However my number 1  system is valve pre (Supratek Cabernet DHT) with a Solid State power amp (Accuphase A70).  Different valves change the sound in this pre, whilst the SS just faithfully supports the valve changes.  I have swapped my valve amps in but found that they added their flavour which was just a little too much with the current valves in the Supratek, but they match nicely with the other valve preamps.  

 

I do play a little electronica, and along with Rock and Roll which is better on my 2nd system which is valve pre and valve mono amps all McIntosh.

 

Edited by Rosco8
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I think this question may suit this thread ... can anyone suggest a tube pre amp that I could use in a “processor loop” on my XSP-1?

 

Not wanting to spend serious money just have the ability to add some tube warmth on occasion. 

Edited by westsurf
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