georgesgiralt Posted June 22, 2020 Share Posted June 22, 2020 Hello, On DiyAudio, a clever guy designed a card for amplifying MC cart signals to the level of the phono preamp for my Apt Holman preamplifier. He was kind enough to share the design with me. So I have a device with two phono inputs : one for "standard" MM carts and one for MC carts. I would like to test it without breaking a bank as I'm not that fan of various carts and expensive equipment. So what cart would you recommend with low price and decent performance in order for me to test it ? It will be put on an SL1500 with an SME 3009 Serie II non improved arm, if that makes a difference. MAny thanks in advance for your help ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tobes Posted June 22, 2020 Share Posted June 22, 2020 I'm not convinced that lower cost MC cartridges are superior to upper level MM. I've almost exclusively used MC cartridges for decades, but I'm now primarily using an Ortofon 2M Black - and think it's a fantastic cartridge. The other day I compared my old Ortofon Jubilee MC to the 2M Black and found the latter much better. This was not completely fair as the Jubilee had a lot of hours on the stylus - but still, it was once Ortofon's top of the line MC. Not saying don't do it, but MC won't necessarily beat a good MM. Some of the popular low cost MC's are the Audio Technica 33 and OC9 variants, various Hana variants and Ortofon's Quintet range. I've owned a bunch of AT and Ortofon MC's (mostly more expensive) and I'd take the 2M Black (especially over the AT's). 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Uglu Posted June 22, 2020 Share Posted June 22, 2020 If you want an MC without breaking the bank and provided your MM phono input is not a noisy one I would suggest you try the high output DENON DL 110. It was my first MC, I still have a couple around that I use on my secondary TT, It doesn't reach the level of a top MC but I am perfectly happy using it despite having much better cartridges. For me these days is MC or nothing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TOPSHELF Posted June 23, 2020 Share Posted June 23, 2020 8 hours ago, Uglu said: If you want an MC without breaking the bank and provided your MM phono input is not a noisy one I would suggest you try the high output DENON DL 110. It was my first MC, I still have a couple around that I use on my secondary TT, It doesn't reach the level of a top MC but I am perfectly happy using it despite having much better cartridges. For me these days is MC or nothing. I think George was looking to test the new MC stage in his phono. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ian McP Posted June 23, 2020 Share Posted June 23, 2020 Denon DL103R MC special price on amazon.com.au Aus$375 https://www.amazon.com.au/DENON-FBA_DL103REM-Phono-Cartridge-DL-103R/dp/B000OY3CFM/ref=asc_df_B000OY3CFM/?tag=googleshopdsk-22&linkCode=df0&hvadid=341792355995&hvpos=&hvnetw=g&hvrand=17162493082260639152&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvqmt=&hvdev=c&hvdvcmdl=&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=9071477&hvtargid=pla-423106643497&psc=1 It's low output so you'll need a step up, with what you're saving on the cartridge you could put to a MC step up stage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cafe latte Posted June 23, 2020 Share Posted June 23, 2020 22 hours ago, Tobes said: I'm not convinced that lower cost MC cartridges are superior to upper level MM. I've almost exclusively used MC cartridges for decades, but I'm now primarily using an Ortofon 2M Black - and think it's a fantastic cartridge. The other day I compared my old Ortofon Jubilee MC to the 2M Black and found the latter much better. This was not completely fair as the Jubilee had a lot of hours on the stylus - but still, it was once Ortofon's top of the line MC. Not saying don't do it, but MC won't necessarily beat a good MM. Some of the popular low cost MC's are the Audio Technica 33 and OC9 variants, various Hana variants and Ortofon's Quintet range. I've owned a bunch of AT and Ortofon MC's (mostly more expensive) and I'd take the 2M Black (especially over the AT's). I agree, not sure how or why all this started, probably as MC are cheaper to make and because the stylus is not user replaceable so attractive from a marketing point. Back in the day MM won the moving mass race with the EPC 205 mk3 and the EPC100 having staggeringly low moving mass way lower than MC with normal output too so no need for amplification that can be noisy to boost tiny MC signal. MC was developed simply as it is low moving mass there is no other magic to the technology. A MC is simply a MM in reverse. Only caveat is MM is more prone to capacitance of cables due to longer coil. This is not really an issue as long as rca cables are correct capacitance. Now MI is not often considered when this debate comes up. Also very low moving mass, often lower than MC and Grado for example who invented the stereo MC abandoned MC in favour of MI. I have 60 carts a lot of expensive MC's MM and MI and my best cart is a Decca super gold which is a MI not a MC, second best is a MM third is probably a MI, then a MM, the MC are next. Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
georgesgiralt Posted June 23, 2020 Author Share Posted June 23, 2020 Hi ! Thank you for your answer. But as the goal is to test the pre-preamp, buying a high output MC cart is not a nice move, IMHO. But I retain the idea of Denon carts. Will take a look at them. Have a nice day ! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tobes Posted June 23, 2020 Share Posted June 23, 2020 (edited) 41 minutes ago, georgesgiralt said: Hi ! Thank you for your answer. But as the goal is to test the pre-preamp, buying a high output MC cart is not a nice move, IMHO. But I retain the idea of Denon carts. Will take a look at them. Have a nice day ! Not sure if high output MC was mentioned anywhere(?). Though it is bettered in many respects by other cartridges I own and still enjoy the the Denon 103R (have 4 of them - stock and with various mods). Not sure about other Denons but I prefer the 103R with an SUT into an MM stage. YMMV. Edited June 23, 2020 by Tobes Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andyr Posted June 23, 2020 Share Posted June 23, 2020 5 hours ago, Tobes said: Not sure about other Denons but I prefer the 103R with an SUT into an MM stage. YMMV. Have you ever tried the 103R into your MM stage with a head amp, instead of a SUT, Tobes? (So you can get the optimum loading for the 103R.) I can lend you one, if you're interested. Andy 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tobes Posted June 23, 2020 Share Posted June 23, 2020 Thanks for the offer Andy but my Parasound JC3jr has a pretty decent MC input which provides 66dB gain from the balanced outputs. With the 103R I still prefer using the Bobs Devices 1131 SUT - just bristles with energy. Super fun cartridge when I'm in the mood for a change. Having said that, I'm listening to the Jico SAS/Garrott P77 as I type this - and its just a better cartridge than the 103R. The SAS stylus really takes the P77 to another level. The Garrott SAS also has more bass slam and dynamics than the 2M Black and less 'stark' sounding than that cartridge too. Maybe not as strictly neutral as the Ortofon but more fun. With the Garrott and the Black I don't feel any compulsion to play around with MC's (never thought I'd say that) - but I might look around for another nice MM or maybe a MI. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
georgesgiralt Posted June 23, 2020 Author Share Posted June 23, 2020 Hello, I've narrowed down my choices to these two carts : Audio Technica AT-OC9XEB and Ortofon MC Quintet Red Which one would you choose ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Uglu Posted June 23, 2020 Share Posted June 23, 2020 (edited) 15 hours ago, TOPSHELF said: I think George was looking to test the new MC stage in his phono. Yes, you are right, thank you! 15 hours ago, georgesgiralt said: Hi ! Thank you for your answer. But as the goal is to test the pre-preamp, buying a high output MC cart is not a nice move, IMHO. But I retain the idea of Denon carts. Will take a look at them. Have a nice day ! I apologize, I have misread your post, I thought you were adding a full phono pre circuit to an amp that only had line input. In that case my choice would have been the DL110. I must agree with Tobes, going the cheap, low output MC way is not necessarily the best way to spend your money. The 103 is another nice sounding cartridge that is cheap but besides the cartridge the MC stage is as important as the cartridge, perhaps more. Just lifting the MC signal level might not be a guaranteed of good sound, even with a good cartridge. These days the myriad of dedicated phono stages of all kind of prices are proof of that and the SUT is another story as well. I do like trying different things as long as long as I am comfortable knowing that the results might not be what I've desired after spending the time and money. So, if you go ahead I hope you enjoy doing it and get satisfying results. Edited June 23, 2020 by Uglu Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cafe latte Posted June 23, 2020 Share Posted June 23, 2020 9 hours ago, andyr said: Have you ever tried the 103R into your MM stage with a head amp, instead of a SUT, Tobes? (So you can get the optimum loading for the 103R.) I can lend you one, if you're interested. Andy I bought a Harmonious audio head amp off ebay for giggles. I have a DNM MC phono stage which is lovely, but wanted to try this cheap as chips device as I know the Leach Head amp was great. I opened up the Harmonious when it arrived and it is basically an improved leach with very high quality components too. Buttons look a bit naff but it is a very high quality product for next to nothing. Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crtexcnndrm99 Posted June 24, 2020 Share Posted June 24, 2020 Just adding my 2 cents... I've seen a lot of mentions of the Denon 103 models. I've had a great experience with the Denon DL301mkii which I've been using since end of last year. Mentions of this one are infrequent compared to the 103, but all accounts I've read are glowing, and it can be had at a good price. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tobes Posted June 24, 2020 Share Posted June 24, 2020 16 minutes ago, crtexcnndrm99 said: I've had a great experience with the Denon DL301mkii which I've been using since end of last year. I like that suggestion. Denon make quality cartridges and I like their sound signature. The 301 will have broader compatibility than the 103r too. Wonder why I never tried one myself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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