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mloutfie

Should I downgrade my subwoofer size

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I recently added a rel T7i to my system and it perform admirable to lift up the system to a really satisfactory level can't fault it really but I only uses half of it's volume level to get a well integration to my speaker I now wonder if I should just downgrade to t5i which is half price and spend my money on better room treatment. the money I saved can get me a good diffuser. I bought the T7i used so there won't be money lost if I pass it on

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only you can decide that, but if you wont lose money why not try it as you can always buy another if the 5 does not satify. running at half is quite normal for subs, my 2 run at 35% but damn if i am going to replace them for smaller subs haha

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It’s not really about the the volume used, I think its more about the quality of the bass, I would think as you go up the range the SQ would be better, so going downwards in the range my not give you what you require.

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21 minutes ago, hopefullguy said:

only you can decide that, but if you wont lose money why not try it as you can always buy another if the 5 does not satify. running at half is quite normal for subs, my 2 run at 35% but damn if i am going to replace them for smaller subs haha

Are you running 2 t7i?

3 minutes ago, awayward said:

It’s not really about the the volume used, I think its more about the quality of the bass, I would think as you go up the range the SQ would be better, so going downwards in the range my not give you what you require.

Never think it that way. I just thought t5i and t7i just have different power this if I don't use all of t7i power why not go lower

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3 minutes ago, mloutfie said:

Are you running 2 t7i?

Never think it that way. I just thought t5i and t7i just have different power this if I don't use all of t7i power why not go lower

T7i has 2 drivers, an active and a passive, the T5i just has one active, so will be quite different in its output.

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If you do decide to "downgrade", I might be interested in the T7i

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I'd try crossing over lower and increasing the volume before I made any decision.

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1 hour ago, mloutfie said:

I recently added a rel T7i to my system and it perform admirable to lift up the system to a really satisfactory level can't fault it really but I only uses half of it's volume level to get a well integration to my speaker I now wonder if I should just downgrade to t5i which is half price and spend my money on better room treatment. the money I saved can get me a good diffuser. I bought the T7i used so there won't be money lost if I pass it on

mlpoutfie... it doesnt work like that... the vol is just gain... it is no indication of dynamic reserves or level of clout subwoofer able to deliver :) in same ways with same gain levels of amplifiers you can calibrate all the same level on your AVR/processor however the one with greater clarity control and dynamic reserves will be ones that deliver....

 

keep the good sub.... selling it will likely only get you have in any case... and why get a lesser sub which will likely not go as low, not be as controlled or have the dynamics or kick as hard....

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15 minutes ago, Tubularbells said:

I'd try crossing over lower and increasing the volume before I made any decision.

Crossed over around 70-80hz and measures the frequency response this should be the right setup for my room. Brown line is with the rel blue is without.

 

1039535644_ns1000beforenaftersub.thumb.JPG.f2584f51de0f920922bed914b9722131.JPG

 

31 minutes ago, awayward said:

T7i has 2 drivers, an active and a passive, the T5i just has one active, so will be quite different in its output.

I did think about that but does the passive driver does give more power? Based on my reading it's all about spreading the wave. 

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1 hour ago, mloutfie said:

I recently added a rel T7i to my system and it perform admirable to lift up the system to a really satisfactory level can't fault it really but I only uses half of it's volume level

How have you determined this?

If you mean you only have the volume dial at "half way".... then this doesn't mean what you think it does.


If you are happy with it's physical size in the room, then keep it.   There's really no such thing as a sub too big  ;)

 

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4 minutes ago, betty boop said:

mlpoutfie... it doesnt work like that... the vol is just gain... it is no indication of dynamic reserves or level of clout subwoofer able to deliver :) in same ways with same gain levels of amplifiers you can calibrate all the same level on your AVR/processor however the one with greater clarity control and dynamic reserves will be ones that deliver....

 

keep the good sub.... selling it will likely only get you have in any case... and why get a lesser sub which will likely not go as low, not be as controlled or have the dynamics or kick as hard....

I actually also wonder that also what does the volume control does. Whether it uses to cut the input signal volume or to boost the output. If it's to cut the input signal yes your suggestions is the way to go and keeping the better sub is the better way

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2 minutes ago, davewantsmoore said:

How have you determined this?

If you mean you only have the volume dial at "half way".... then this doesn't mean what you think it does

I used this measurement to confirm Brown line is the frequency response after the sub. boosting the volume will screw up the response1039535644_ns1000beforenaftersub.thumb.JPG.f2584f51de0f920922bed914b9722131.JPG

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7 minutes ago, mloutfie said:

I actually also wonder that also what does the volume control does. Whether it uses to cut the input signal volume or to boost the output. If it's to cut the input signal yes your suggestions is the way to go and keeping the better sub is the better way

it is just to level adjust so level of the sub is in line with other speakers. it doesnt tell you how good or woeful your sub is. it is an incorrect assumption of yours as you stated in the opening post. 

 

with regards the measured response of the sub quoted above... all volume level does is it lifts the curve up or down... if you have it too far up.... you will have boost in bass vs other speakers.... if you drop the volume level it will be deficient vs other speakers. this presumes you have calibrated correctly now. 

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Can never have too much sub 😎. I recently got a PSA V1500 (44m^3 room) yet considering adding another Rythmik G25HP.

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Posted (edited)
37 minutes ago, mloutfie said:

I used this measurement to confirm Brown line is the frequency response after the sub. boosting the volume will screw up the response1039535644_ns1000beforenaftersub.thumb.JPG.f2584f51de0f920922bed914b9722131.JPG

An ABR in a subwoofer sitting next to the real woofer driver doesn’t mean there is another woofer doing the same, all it does is to tune the response  like between a ported tube in a vented cabinet and sealed design.

 

To be honest if one wants to save even more and isn’t too concerned about looks, newness and brand snobbery there are many used older externally bland looking subs from generic makers that can do quite a good job at perhaps a tiny less quality for about $50-300. I always use this example of a beer budget $60 used Sony SAWM40 pictured below, very reliable, good all round performance that was about $400 rrp in its day and there are many similar at budget rrp from Yamaha, Krix, B&W, Focal, Dali etc.

 

Also, your linear dB measurement graph (closer to C weighted) doesn’t truely represent how humans perceive low freq as we hear things in an A-weight curve, see below

 

 

D22D6F3B-D1F1-4D1B-8FA0-D47C3F773365.jpeg

ABC6C3AB-C009-4BCC-B92C-B9D5C2F02D03.png

44CCCFD8-D4DE-461C-8328-F47989918326.png

Edited by Al.M

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@Al.M anyone who knows me in person know I'm a value hunter but I haven't been happy with many cheaper sub even with minidsp adjustment. I haven't successfully find something that blend seamlessly with a speaker I have some bower Wilkins and Athena  asp400 sub in the room previously. This rel is my first foray to expensive sub but they are quite seamlessly  integrate with the speaker. Especially with the ns1000m which I reckon quite a quick speaker the rel didn't drag it down just improve the lower end.

 

I'll do more reading though regarding graph weighted it's foreign concept to me

 

 

 

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2 hours ago, betty boop said:

it is just to level adjust so level of the sub is in line with other speakers. it doesnt tell you how good or woeful your sub is. it is an incorrect assumption of yours as you stated in the opening post. 

 

with regards the measured response of the sub quoted above... all volume level does is it lifts the curve up or down... if you have it too far up.... you will have boost in bass vs other speakers.... if you drop the volume level it will be deficient vs other speakers. this presumes you have calibrated correctly now. 

I thought so too. The knob is to level the sub with the speakers. The volume of the sub together with the other speakers are controlled through the main volume control, which is an int. amp for me. 

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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, mloutfie said:

@Al.M anyone who knows me in person know I'm a value hunter but I haven't been happy with many cheaper sub even with minidsp adjustment. I haven't successfully find something that blend seamlessly with a speaker I have some bower Wilkins and Athena  asp400 sub in the room previously. This rel is my first foray to expensive sub but they are quite seamlessly  integrate with the speaker. Especially with the ns1000m which I reckon quite a quick speaker the rel didn't drag it down just improve the lower end.

 

I'll do more reading though regarding graph weighted it's foreign concept to me

 

 

 

Your graph measured in dB linear flat (Z) shows the sub is adding about 10-20dB from around 80Hz and below, 10dB can be about twice the perceived loudness so it is doing a lot, which is what you are hearing.

 

Personally I would keep the current Rel if it’s doing a good job with the NS1000. 

Edited by Al.M

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sorry no i dont use rel subs but going "down" to a even smaller 8" sub is something i personally could never consider.

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Thanks all I think I get the information I need now. That is not important what's the volume settings on the sub is but the sub performance in the room itself. But if any dual t5i user in Melbourne want to do a temporary swap and see how t7i will work in their room send me a message to do in house test. :)

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13 hours ago, mloutfie said:

Thanks all I think I get the information I need now. That is not important what's the volume settings on the sub is but the sub performance in the room itself. But if any dual t5i user in Melbourne want to do a temporary swap and see how t7i will work in their room send me a message to do in house test. :)

For your frequency response graph, can you change the vertical dB axis to something that shows a bit more resolution? Something like 60dB to 110dB should work, and give you 5dB spacing.

Using -180dB to +180dB really doesn't show you much. 

For full range sweeps you can probably change the horizontal Hz axis to 20Hz to 20kHz and apply 1/6 Oct smoothing

 

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1 hour ago, jamiebosco said:

For your frequency response graph, can you change the vertical dB axis to something that shows a bit more resolution? Something like 60dB to 110dB should work, and give you 5dB spacing.

Using -180dB to +180dB really doesn't show you much. 

For full range sweeps you can probably change the horizontal Hz axis to 20Hz to 20kHz and apply 1/6 Oct smoothing

 

This should be as high resolution I can produce

smoothed.thumb.jpg.15f4c98c1091559932de39f126fc5ea1.jpg

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Posted (edited)

Just an update I found a decent price Rel T3 locally which is spec wise is similar with t5i but with 2 driver (8 inch 1 active and 1 passive) which I reckon match the t7i better. Can't help myself to try it out. surely enough the lower Rel is nowehere near T7i here is the comparison Green is T7i and purple is t3. Apologise for the db differences was doing the measurement in a hurry but you can easily see the differences in slope under 50hz. The t3 just doesn't dig low enough. with the similar spec I will think the t5i would be the same so pretty much as other member stated

1423063280_Dualsubmeasurement.thumb.JPG.98f8edf159c7b51029aea062e4b92816.JPG

Now what is interesting is the blue lines. this blue lines is using 2 subs with the position in the below diagram (note I found that position is optimal corner position and any position closer to the wall result in worse freq response) it boosted 50-150hz response but the dip at 40-80hz is still there. Is this just room effect that I can't ever beat? so no matter what I do I can't boost the dip? or is this something you fix with room treatment like bass trap? but on more interesting note look how the dual sub actually improve the flatness of 600hz up to 20k I wonder why it affect the higher frequency like that

615612315_DualSubspeakerplacement.JPG.0ed609fe4bddaaed196ccac672d809fd.JPG

 

 

Edited by mloutfie

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59 minutes ago, mloutfie said:

but on more interesting note look how the dual sub actually improve the flatness of 600hz up to 20k I wonder why it affect the higher frequency like that

likely a measurement anomaly - ignore it for sub analysis

 

1 hour ago, mloutfie said:

but the dip at 40-80hz is still there. Is this just room effect that I can't ever beat? so no matter what I do I can't boost the dip?

individual sub placement can assist, as can individual EQ/delay control over each sub with something like Multi Sub Optimizer (MSO)

 

1 hour ago, mloutfie said:

or is this something you fix with room treatment like bass trap?

not really without really large traps - I love room treatment, and I have a lot of absorption in my room, but it has reducing effectiveness below 150Hz or so...

Any trap operating 40-80Hz will need to be very large.

Absorption traps at that frequency get truly massive, and pressure traps are narrow band (and also large at that frequency), so you may need several tuned pressure traps at different frequencies to trap a whole octave (40-80Hz is a big range for pressure traps).

 

Individual control of EQ and delay on each of your subs can help a lot if you have the capability...

...it's also worthwhile looking at the REW measurements for whether that region is "Minimum Phase" - ie look at the REW Excess Group Delay plot...some shallow dips (and many peaks) are "minimum phase", so EQ can assist (lopping peaks with EQ is generally OK, boosting dips with EQ is only OK where you know the response is "minimum phase").

 

If you don't have EQ/delay capability on each sub, do lots of measurements with each of your 2 subs in different positions - some combination will reduce that dip...

 

 

cheers

Mike

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Thanks @almikel after I recently changed my speaker to Yamaha ns1000 it somehow pick up noise from my minidsp even when using ifipower so I have lost the ability to eq my sub until I get a better power supply.

 

I've simulate different multi sub using rew the current position is the most smooth response. So look like other than using minidsp my options are quite limited

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