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The ideal listening room??


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8 hours ago, Peter the Greek said:

I don't know why people keep getting caught up with room ratios. Every room will have bass troubles, its a given. Construction will vary, its a given. The best approach to sizing is like what @Al.M outlined - decide on how many chairs, how many rows, ad adequate offset around the edge of those seats so no one is sitting near a wall or speaker. If its a HT, draw some triangles and work out viewing angles - that'll give screen size and room depth. Add extra for baffle walls, gear racks etc. Done.

 

Then treat as needed. I've said it before and I'll say it again. I'd take a massive cube ANY DAY over a small "perfect" ratio space

Yep, and we are told to avoid a cubish dimension room with equal length and width as it causes or accentuates modes the worst and a rectangle is better.

 

Also, personal experience with several rooms I have had over the years I don’t find that aligning the speakers on the shorter wall subjectively works better with seated position in the middle. Speakers aligned along the longer wall can also work quite well, although technically we are told the rear wall reflection can be an issue. I have heard one persons near perfect dimension rectangle room with treatments, sound terribly lifeless and dull. Best to try different layouts and see what sounds best and also fill the room with enough objects, soft furnishings and furniture to breakup reflections as far as possible before resorting to treatments, not the other way way around.

Edited by Al.M
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Isn't golden ratio based on visual proportion, it doesn't have significance for structral or audio science does it?

 

I'd have thought non-parallel walls would be sommething significant for audio. I know sound studios use that sort of thing along with double-glazed windows (wide spaced and non-parallel panes) to reduce resonance and standing waves.

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3 minutes ago, pwstereo said:

Isn't golden ratio based on visual proportion, it doesn't have significance for structural or audio science does it?

 

I'd have thought non-parallel walls would be something significant for audio. I know sound studios use that sort of thing along with double-glazed windows (wide spaced and non-parallel panes) to reduce resonance and standing waves.

No, it just so happens that the same golden ratios are ideal for minimising the magnitude and number of resonant frequencies, and spread them more evenly. However, it assumes a perfectly sealed box with perfectly reflective walls for all frequencies to the same degree. Nothing could be further from the truth, so whilst it's a good starting point, it's hardly that relevant in the real world. As others have said, a big room is far more important than a perfect ratio room.

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17 hours ago, andyr said:

All I can say is ... I was able to design the listening room in my last house, when I built it in the late 80s, and this was:

  • 5 x 8 metres,
  • with a ceiling that was 2.7m at the sides of the long walls and went up to about 4.5 in the centre.  (The critical part was to make the 2 slopes of the ceiling meet at 100 deg - not 90 deg - so ceiling to floor vibrations never repeated.)

It worked very well:thumb:

Interestingly, this works well (if we assume effective ceiling height is around 3.3m) according to the Bolt area calculator 

 

but

 

21 hours ago, andyr said:

As far as know it ... there is only one set of dimensions that accords with the "golden ratio" - this is: 0.618 : 1 : 1.618

 

iow, say:

  • width = 5m
  • height = 0.618 x 5 = 3.09m
  • length = 1.618 x 5 = 8.09m

this doesnt

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1 hour ago, Ittaku said:

...the same golden ratios are ideal for minimising the magnitude and number of resonant frequencies, and spread them more evenly.

I had no idea about that, interesting info, thanks.

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51 minutes ago, frednork said:

 

but this doesn't:

 

  • width = 5m
  • height = 0.618 x 5 = 3.09m
  • length = 1.618 x 5 = 8.09m

 

 

Sorry, Mark - are you disputing with my statement that 0.618 is the Golden Ratio ... or my arithmetik?  :)

 

Andy

 

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5 minutes ago, andyr said:

 

Sorry, Mark - are you disputing with my statement that 0.618 is the Golden Ratio ... or my arithmetik?  :)

 

Andy

 

Neither,  the dimensions you suggested based on the golden ratio do not correspond with the Bolt area which is (theoretically at least) a researched basis for the creation of a good sounding room

 

image.thumb.png.e728f78575dadf0c998935c8ece7dcec.png

 

Whereas the dimensions of the room you actually built (and sounded good) may well be within the Bolt area (if we assume an average height of 330 for lack of being able to do anything else to make it work in this calculator). I dont really uinderstand why but must assume that Mr Bolt figured it out to be so.

 

image.thumb.png.94dfe89b7e16c99e9cf95ca423582afc.png

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And no one mentioned the glaring problem with this construction as with so much construction in the USA - an obsession with building flimsy fire traps. This building is surrounded by woodland and will go up like a big bonfire. Obviously the owners are loaded so why not use fireproof materials for the external construction.

 

The internal works are excellent no doubt about that but why this obsession with flimsy wooden construction, time for America to change - check out what happened in California or like in the South - lots of food for termites. 

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From what I have read the golden ratios don't really mean much in practice as either way you still have to manage low frequency modes and the usual issues in small residential scale spaces. 

 

Having them evenly spaced from memory is a nice to have so that reverberation theory works better as each band width has sufficient number of modes and uniform density of modes at concert hall scale. 

 

But making reverberation theory work better doesn't have anything to do with making a good sounding room (unless perhaps you are at concert hall scale, but still add in adequate reflections of the direct signal with correct delays). Good design in small rooms would still seem to instead be controlling speaker boundary effects/reflections where they have no benefit, ensuring the magnitude of reflections where beneficial have the correct time delays to enhance the sound and otherwise diffuse the sound where reflection delays are longer as diffuse sound doesn't effect imaging. Plus minimal treatment using absorption as most rooms of residential scale have low RTs anyway and deal to base with speaker placement first (massive influence regardless of golden numbers or not) , then perhaps eq or trapping. All of this is a function firstly of room size which dictates modes, which then dictates seat and speaker position options and time delays from reflections OR maybe more correctly work backwards with desired speaker spacing and seat position and build the room around it. 

 

If I was scratching building a room I'd go for enough height to install ceiling diffusers that function over a wide range and low frequency absorption to deal with what can't be diffused at residential scale.

 

Allow for speaker spacing of 3m to 4m and then enough space behind to deal with front wall reflection for combing effects and diffusion between speakers. Have seated position based about on equalateral. 

 

Then room dimensions that ensure I'm not seated at any mid points with enough space for rear wall LF absorption and diffusers.

 

Then side walls spaced to keep first reflection delay times short enough they add to the direct signal and assist in the time domain for music for presence and sound envelopment and to mostly cancel out so called comb filtering which in mids and highs seems to only occur in a room for a steady test signal rather than music. And if the off axis speaker performance is a bit off or desire is tighter imaging then space for optional side wall treatment but from my understanding ceiling diffusion and front wall diffusion may play a bigger part in imaging. Certainly good imaging can be had with reflective side walls with short time delays. 

 

I'd digest Toole's book before building a room. 

 

I agree 100% with the earlier comment of chosing a large cube over a small room of golden ratio. I don't personally see the benefit of golden ratio at residential scale as the problems to be solved are different to large spaces with significant reverberation. Small rooms don't have sufficient modal density in each frequency band at lower frequency, as is evident by strong modes. 

Edited by DrSK
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Getting back to the OP where he is unconstrained by the size of the room, I would think very broadly and generously about the size, type and range of speakers to experience in the long term hifi hobby. Don’t lock yourself into the one system one type speaker.. Think about small to medium monitor speakers with or without subwoofers which don’t need very large rooms to physically large speakers such as WMTMW tower floorstanders up to 1.7m+ tall, large horn speakers and wide panel speakers like Magnapans and full panel electrostatics 1m wide by up to 2m tall that need lots of space and distance to breath and be in the sweet spot in rooms able to achieve the full 4-5m by 5-6m stereo triangle plus 2-3m distance to rear and side walls and behind listener, meaning a 11 x 9 x 3m room at least. After you have tried all of these and taken your pick/s you can sit back and relax.

 

Also, one doesn’t have to have only one type of speaker, you can have one of each type to enjoy that does what each does best as none or very few do it everything well. 

Edited by Al.M
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On 22/06/2020 at 8:16 PM, Dirkgerman said:

Received Architectural plans today for my new sound lounge (house) , 12m x 5m x 2.7m (that one has a kitchen stuffed into a corner), if I get bored in that one there is the other 5 x 7 x 2.7m (bar fridge only and planned vinyl storage). Happy days and CLC from the Council in a month or so. I'll report back in a year or so :)

EDIT, these are separate dedicated "listening areas" not bed rooms although one has a kitchen

(sorry had to tell someone, excited my rig gets a new play area) 

My advice is to make ceiling as high as possible...

Edited by Aperalim
typo
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7 hours ago, Aperalim said:

ceiling as high as possible

Yes, will do. Ceiling will be minimum of 2700  as plaster sheet width at 1350mm is I believe the widest I can get although with a little work I gould get 100mm more. Perforated CSR for both lounges. It's light construction / brick so bass won't be a problem. Other treatments as required after tests particularly the quite large 12m long room

back to work :)

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1 hour ago, Dirkgerman said:

Yes, will do. Ceiling will be minimum of 2700  as plaster sheet width at 1350mm is I believe the widest I can get although with a little work I gould get 100mm more. Perforated CSR for both lounges. It's light construction / brick so bass won't be a problem. Other treatments as required after tests particularly the quite large 12m long room

back to work :)

I understand the efficiencies of scale based on complete plasterboard sheet sizes but I would recommend you try make it taller than 2.7m if possible .  I have always found the higher  the ceiling the better.  My current music room has a ceiling height of 3.3m.  All the best.

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On 23/06/2020 at 7:54 AM, andyr said:

 

That would indeed be a special room, soundwise, John.

 

However, being a mathematician by degree ... I need to correct your arithmetic (lest others get the wrong idea).  :)

 

Dividing 8 by 5 gives you ... just 1.6.  So you would need to make your pentagon with 4.94m sides (to get 8m between points).

 

And the 'golden ratio' is 1.618 - not 1.168!

 

Andy

 

Your correct Andy.  Thanks for the correction.  I will have to do better.  The golden ratio number was a typo on my part.  If I ever get to the fortunate position of doing a being able to do dedicated room I will ask you to do the calculations.

John

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