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Had fun making these Canare 4S11 cables. Definitely demystified the big brand cable game for me as these kind of blow away my Van Den Hul D-352 and Chord Odyssey, and those two were the best result previously for me under $400. Shocked at the performance so far of the Canare cable which was only $6.50 per meter! Jumper leads next.. 

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Had fun making these Canare 4S11 cables. Definitely demystified the big brand cable game for me as these kind of blow away my Van Den Hul D-352 and Chord Odyssey, and those two were the best result pr

After reading this I decided to try some Canare 4s8 cables in my system.  I got the cable from Cliff and thanks to Gary, got the right size braided sleeving.  I did similar to dles1972 and joined two

If you are not changing speakers or cables often, just use bare wire.  The best connector is no connector, IMHO. 

3 hours ago, Tubularbells said:

Nice work!

 

Thanks mate. Ended up pretty easy, so now to experiment with different wire. But to be frank, a wire this inexpensive has no right to sound as good as it does. I know Bill's Cable swears by Canare and I've always scoffed. It's good to be surprised sometimes and you don't always have to shell out $500!

Edited by dles1972
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2 hours ago, dles1972 said:

Had fun making these Canare 4S11 cables. Definitely demystified the big brand cable game for me as these kind of blow away my Van Den Hul D-352 and Chord Odyssey, and those two were the best result previously for me under $400. Shocked at the performance so far of the Canare cable which was only $6.50 per meter! Jumper leads next.. 

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Very nice Work indeed 

 

yes Canare 4s8 and 4s11 is  a hidden treasure.  I’m always amazed at how good it is.  Old fashioned Pure copper.  No snake oil at all 

Edited by Bill125812
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28 minutes ago, Bill125812 said:

Very nice Work indeed 

 

yes Canare 4s8 and 4s11 is  a hidden treasure.  I’m always amazed at how good it is.  Old fashioned Pure copper.  No snake oil at all 

Bill I'm staggered by the clean detail and frequency extremes to be honest. It's made my existing cables sound like Radio Shack wire and I'm not sure how, and I've gone back and forth multiple times to make sure I'm not biasing my opinion. Thanks for inadvertently sparking my interest in trying it. How does the smaller gauge 4S8 compare to the 11 in sound signature? 

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6 minutes ago, dles1972 said:

Bill I'm staggered by the clean detail and frequency extremes to be honest. It's made my existing cables sound like Radio Shack wire and I'm not sure how, and I've gone back and forth multiple times to make sure I'm not biasing my opinion. Thanks for inadvertently sparking my interest in trying it. How does the smaller gauge 4S8 compare to the 11 in sound signature? 

In short runs the 4s8 sounds remarkable also. No real difference IMHO to the 4s11.  When you get into longer runs I think the 4s11 comes into it’s own

Edited by Bill125812
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14 hours ago, Bill125812 said:

In short runs the 4s8 sounds remarkable also. No real difference IMHO to the 4s11.  When you get into longer runs I think the 4s11 comes into it’s own

Just to be clear , what do you consider short ? and from what length would consider long?😊

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10 minutes ago, joz said:

Just to be clear , what do you consider short ? and from what length would consider long?😊

I use 4s8 up to 3 1/2m.  4s11 over that 

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18 hours ago, dles1972 said:

Thanks mate. Ended up pretty easy, so now to experiment with different wire.

IMVHO, I think what you have just discoverd is that what matters with cables, is good termination (ie. connectors onto wire), and clean well fitting connectors.

 

The rest is very secondary.... even, to a fair degree the often debated inductance, capacitance, resistance.

 

That beind said, 4S11 is a good cable.

 

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49 minutes ago, davewantsmoore said:

IMVHO, I think what you have just discoverd is that what matters with cables, is good termination (ie. connectors onto wire), and clean well fitting connectors.

 

The rest is very secondary.... even, to a fair degree the often debated inductance, capacitance, resistance.

 

That beind said, 4S11 is a good cable.

 

Yeah agree, especially the connectors element. I initially bought heavy side entry bananas from Jaycar since I was in there anyway for heat shrink. They did something really weird with the treble, very metallic sounding when I compared back to bare wire. Had some Nakamichi bananas here but read somewhere they are all fake and not copper, rather they are iron with a plating. And again they didn't sound as good as the bare wire. So sourced some nice banana plugs from Carlton Audio which are low mass, copper with gold plating and it sounds great. I'm pretty surprised how much the 3 different banana plugs affect the sound, 2 negatively and the last set getting out of the way of the music nicely. What other cable have you had success with? 

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18 hours ago, Bill125812 said:

In short runs the 4s8 sounds remarkable also. No real difference IMHO to the 4s11.  When you get into longer runs I think the 4s11 comes into it’s own

Bill what's your thoughts on drain wire to the amp end for Speaker cable like 4S11 or any other speaker cable for that matter? 

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1 hour ago, dles1972 said:

Bill what's your thoughts on drain wire to the amp end for Speaker cable like 4S11 or any other speaker cable for that matter? 

Never really had much time for drain wires to be honest.   You would have to be listening to music for one hell of a long time to build up the the a point where static charge or electromagnetic charge that would effect a well made speaker cable with some shielding included 

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17 minutes ago, Bill125812 said:

Never really had much time for drain wires to be honest.   You would have to be listening to music for one hell of a long time to build up the the a point where static charge or electromagnetic charge that would effect a well made speaker cable with some shielding included 

Agree. Someone asked me if had used a drain wire and really, I can't think of any of my large company made cable that had a drain wire besides Supra 3.4s really 

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1 minute ago, dles1972 said:

Agree. Someone asked me if had used a drain wire and really, I can't think of any of my large company made cable that had a drain wire besides Supra 3.4s really 

There are a few but not many.  And when some manufacturers actually tell you to just plug the cable in either way and see what sounds better.  Then I worry 😜

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7 hours ago, dles1972 said:

Agree. Someone asked me if had used a drain wire and really, I can't think of any of my large company made cable that had a drain wire besides Supra 3.4s really 

 

It the cable has a screen and a drain cable, then both should be isolated at one end and then connected to the neg at the other,  which end of the then made cable goes is up to you, but if the amp design has the neg to ground, the drain will find its way to ground either way. 

 

Or you could isolate one end and connect the other end to earth. 

 

Will doing it or not make a difference.. In a perfect world with your speaker cable not near anything else, probably not.. 

 

If you have a messy set up with speakers cables running along with power cables then you 'could' run into hum problems. 

 

I would never not terminated a shield cable without terminating one end isolated and the other to path to earth. You can do both, but earth loop hum could happen. 

 

If the cable only has a drain wire and no screen , then don't bother (but why would a cable have only a drain wire? It would only then be a unisolated conductor) 

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10 hours ago, dles1972 said:

. So sourced some nice banana plugs from Carlton Audio

 

May I ask what brand where they and cost? 

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17 hours ago, dles1972 said:

Yeah agree, especially the connectors element. I initially bought heavy side entry bananas from Jaycar since I was in there anyway for heat shrink. They did something really weird with the treble, very metallic sounding when I compared back to bare wire. Had some Nakamichi bananas here but read somewhere they are all fake and not copper, rather they are iron with a plating. And again they didn't sound as good as the bare wire. So sourced some nice banana plugs from Carlton Audio which are low mass, copper with gold plating and it sounds great. I'm pretty surprised how much the 3 different banana plugs affect the sound, 2 negatively and the last set getting out of the way of the music nicely. What other cable have you had success with? 

I’ve tried a huge range of termination.  From exotic to damn cheap.  IMHO as long as the base metal is good ( a good quality copper, certainly not brass ) then plated with a good quality silver, gold ( not into rhodium ) then the quality of signal transition will be great   There is a lot of snake oil out there with termination 

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2 hours ago, Bill125812 said:

I’ve tried a huge range of termination.  From exotic to damn cheap.  IMHO as long as the base metal is good ( a good quality copper, certainly not brass ) then plated with a good quality silver, gold ( not into rhodium ) then the quality of signal transition will be great   There is a lot of snake oil out there with termination 

Yeah the ones I ended up using from Carlton Audio weren't exotic by any means, just your decent gold plate copper and weren't any more expensive than the hulking brass things I got from jaycar that sounded awful. 

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Canare's 4S8 and 4S11 are just really nicely put together cables with the right insulation materials and a really nice cotton filler at a reasonable, down to earth price. 

 

Glad you like them so much!

 

 

ps.. For even more "worldview shattering" information, the Canare 4S11 isn't even OFC copper.

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2 hours ago, GaryT said:

 

ps.. For even more "worldview shattering" information, the Canare 4S11 isn't even OFC copper.

 

Very interesting... where did you find this info?

 

I wouldn't be too worried in any case - the difference in conductivity and purity between OFC and ETP copper is sweet-bugger-all. 

 

I'm a very satisfied 4S8 user.

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Canare Specify quite clearly which of their cables are OFC in their catalogue, there is a 4S11G variant with JIS H3510 spec OFC conductors, but it is very rare and is produced to order. The last time I asked about it I was asked to commit to 500m minimum order.

 

I have copies of multiple canare catalogues from the last decade or so, but they are available from their US and JP websites.

 

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2 minutes ago, GaryT said:

Canare Specify quite clearly which of their cables are OFC in their catalogue, there is a 4S11G variant with JIS H3510 spec OFC conductors, but it is very rare and is produced to order. The last time I asked about it I was asked to commit to 500m minimum order.

 

I have copies of multiple canare catalogues from the last decade or so, but they are available from their US and JP websites.

 

 

Thanks for the info! This catalogue extract reflects exactly what you've said:

 

https://th.c.misumi-ec.com/book/CNR1_ENG_E01/pdf/0058.pdf

 

 

 

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I made solid core spk cable from a transformer . Basically with various tools and brute force I dismantled the many t shaped core plates . now with access to coil bobbin I unwound the primary ( approx 12m's) straightened it , put plastic tubing around it ( tedious threading job ) twisted it and noticed immediate sonic improvment . may have been placebo effect but ?

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On 21/06/2020 at 12:05 AM, Hytram said:

 

It the cable has a screen and a drain cable, then both should be isolated at one end and then connected to the neg at the other,  which end of the then made cable goes is up to you, but if the amp design has the neg to ground, the drain will find its way to ground either way. 

 

In the trade this is called a guard, and its function is to shield the signal from induced noise. The reason it's connected at ONE END ONLY is so there is no current flow in the shield.

 

This method is used extensively in a calibration laboratory to shield wiring between the standard and unit under test. Unless there a significant source of noise I very much doubt it will have much effect on speaker cables.

 

Nice speaker cables too. I agree with earlier comment on the connection being the most important aspect.

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  • 2 weeks later...

i want to try and get my hands on some  Amadeus 5 MK2 cables but from europe shipping is a rip and the supplier from US doesnt respond.

 

 

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 hi all
has any one compared mogami 3104 against canare 4S11,they are both pro cables and similarly priced,would be interested in any ones personal experience.

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3 hours ago, musicbee said:

If you are not changing speakers or cables often, just use bare wire. 
The best connector is no connector, IMHO. 

I do this at the speaker end (amp end is just easier to use bananas as it can be a tight squeeze getting bare wire in the AVR terminals). That said, I feel like occasionally it does need a little snip and stripping back again, as the exposed end can get a little oxidized. Does that actually impact performance?

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2 minutes ago, Andre28 said:

I do this at the speaker end (amp end is just easier to use bananas as it can be a tight squeeze getting bare wire in the AVR terminals). That said, I feel like occasionally it does need a little snip and stripping back again, as the exposed end can get a little oxidized. Does that actually impact performance?

 

in my opinion you need a fair amount of oxidisation to cause audible issues.

 

I tend to apply some DeOxIt ProGold to freshly trimmed copper wire before tightening down the binding posts, and it tends to keep oxidisation under control.

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5 hours ago, Andre28 said:

I do this at the speaker end (amp end is just easier to use bananas as it can be a tight squeeze getting bare wire in the AVR terminals). That said, I feel like occasionally it does need a little snip and stripping back again, as the exposed end can get a little oxidized. Does that actually impact performance?

The cable would still oxidise in the connector, you just don’t see it. Unless you are tinning/soldering ends. 
 

If I had to choose a preferred connector it would be speakon. 

Edited by musicbee
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Best to seal the clean, bare copper wire in a crimp sleeve/ferrule, gold plated to avoid oxidation on the outside. Use a made-for-purpose crimp tool, and use a crimp sleeve that seems just a bit too small at first try, so you get a good, tight cold-weld. 

 

That is my gold (ahem) standard for termination, everything else follows from there. The crimped cable end can then be inserted into speaker or amplifier terminals, or into banana plugs, as required.

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Nice work on the cables dles1972. Bout to do similar myself. My speakers are tri-wire so I ended up going with some Van Damme (doing the splits 😄 ) Black Tour multicore 8x2.5mm. Managed to find new 6.4m offcut for just under $75. Thank you Cliff Elec (Garrry) and valuable SNA members posts. Will use 4 cores for bass then, obviously, pair each for mids and highs.

Was wondering what the consensus was about what’s the best connection; banana, spades, bare. Did notice that’s been touched on already here and my train of thought ( doesn't make it correct ) would be bare. Like MusicBee, unless you are a retailer or swapping out often I would think no connector is the best connector. You are not introducing an additional material or connection point. Moreover, applied pressure at the connection point ( speaker binging post ) would seem to have an affect. Seems bare clamps down harder. Think Audioholics once did a test of sorts and seems the more load you can apply, the better. Pretty sure bare was the most. Also saw it on my bosses osiloscope once when i told him to apply extra pressure on something he was testing ( I’m not that techy to explain what he was doing but it involved an osiloscope 🙈). He was very surprised it was making a difference.

Was also going to ask about speaker length, but has been answered. Thanks Bill.

Will ask another though. Can you go too short? Also, any disadvantage ( $$ not included) to using, say, something like the 4S11 for a 2mtr run compared to 4S8? Bill? 😄

Have also wondered if there would be any noticeable difference in sound characteristics between the Canare, Van Damme and Mogami as these seem to be very popular great value recommendations from the knowledgeable everyday audio enthusiast found on sites like this.

Again, great job on the cables dles1972. They look the ***$ as my younger counterparts at work would say 👍

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I also tend to think no connector, or a simple crimped ferrule is the best.

Connectors are a great convenience however to avoid having to strip new copper every now and then. Eventually, your cable might be just a touch too short!

 

I think the ferrules are probably going to to be the best solution, keeps the strands together and reasonably clean, can still be bitten into by the terminal post for good contact, and offer a very direct and thin barrier between the wire and terminal, rather than what is usually a large chunk of unknown quality brass.

 

 

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13 hours ago, Steffen said:

Best to seal the clean, bare copper wire in a crimp sleeve/ferrule, gold plated to avoid oxidation on the outside. Use a made-for-purpose crimp tool, and use a crimp sleeve that seems just a bit too small at first try, so you get a good, tight cold-weld. 

 

That is my gold (ahem) standard for termination, everything else follows from there. The crimped cable end can then be inserted into speaker or amplifier terminals, or into banana plugs, as required.

Hi Steffen, any links to where we might source gold plated ferrules and maybe a appropriate low cost crimp tool. Really like this idea and have read reviews on the benefits. Great idea and cheers for suggesting it. 

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12 hours ago, DTSdan said:

Nice work on the cables dles1972. Bout to do similar myself. My speakers are tri-wire so I ended up going with some Van Damme (doing the splits 😄 ) Black Tour multicore 8x2.5mm. Managed to find new 6.4m offcut for just under $75. Thank you Cliff Elec (Garrry) and valuable SNA members posts. Will use 4 cores for bass then, obviously, pair each for mids and highs.

Was wondering what the consensus was about what’s the best connection; banana, spades, bare. Did notice that’s been touched on already here and my train of thought ( doesn't make it correct ) would be bare. Like MusicBee, unless you are a retailer or swapping out often I would think no connector is the best connector. You are not introducing an additional material or connection point. Moreover, applied pressure at the connection point ( speaker binging post ) would seem to have an affect. Seems bare clamps down harder. Think Audioholics once did a test of sorts and seems the more load you can apply, the better. Pretty sure bare was the most. Also saw it on my bosses osiloscope once when i told him to apply extra pressure on something he was testing ( I’m not that techy to explain what he was doing but it involved an osiloscope 🙈). He was very surprised it was making a difference.

Was also going to ask about speaker length, but has been answered. Thanks Bill.

Will ask another though. Can you go too short? Also, any disadvantage ( $$ not included) to using, say, something like the 4S11 for a 2mtr run compared to 4S8? Bill? 😄

Have also wondered if there would be any noticeable difference in sound characteristics between the Canare, Van Damme and Mogami as these seem to be very popular great value recommendations from the knowledgeable everyday audio enthusiast found on sites like this.

Again, great job on the cables dles1972. They look the ***$ as my younger counterparts at work would say 👍

Cheers mate, appreciate it 👍

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11 minutes ago, dles1972 said:

Hi Steffen, any links to where we might source gold plated ferrules and maybe a appropriate low cost crimp tool. Really like this idea and have read reviews on the benefits. Great idea and cheers for suggesting it. 

@Krispy Audio is where I get mine (WBT, so not cheap):

https://krispyaudio.com.au/categories/plugs-components/

 

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47 minutes ago, Steffen said:

@Krispy Audio is where I get mine (WBT, so not cheap):

https://krispyaudio.com.au/categories/plugs-components/

 

Great thanks. Personally, after making the mistake of buying heavy brass banana plugs and hearing how much it changed the sound for the worse, I'm keen on a simple solution to go bare wire at home with ferrules and provide ferrule ends for friends who want cables made. That way they can use quality light weight screw banana plugs if they want to. The biggest eye opener so far has been how bad those chunky (but expensive looking) banana plugs have sounded. In all instances the lighter weight more basic looking bananas made of gold plate copper sounded much better in my set up 

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I also quite like the sawtooth style plugs, they fit tight, weigh very little and look nice. 

 

Edited by GaryT
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  • 2 weeks later...

After reading this I decided to try some Canare 4s8 cables in my system.  I got the cable from Cliff and thanks to Gary, got the right size braided sleeving.  I did similar to dles1972 and joined two of cores to make it a single connection.  I didn’t use connectors, just the bare wire.  The speaker cables in my system are Chord Silver Screen and have been there since I put the system together 6 years ago.

I put on My Dark Side of the Moon SACD and put on Time.  I stopped and swapped the cables and then listened to Time again.

After listening I rolled up the Chords and put them in the cupboard.  The Canare cables gave more detail, the Chords made things sound a little muddy and veiled.

thanks for the inspiration dles1972.

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