stereo coffee Posted June 20, 2020 Share Posted June 20, 2020 7 hours ago, tripitaka said: Thank you for asking, Aperalim. Until very recently, I prefered a Dac -> power amp direct arrangement. So, it was easy to see whether said preamp (I don't wish to mention names, because I no longer believe in hifi absolutes) actually made an improvement or detracted. Of course that particular question revolved around the quality of my dac output stage, which I didnt expect to be stellar, but which stood up well in that particular context. Given a straight wire also requires shielding and represents little resistance, what attenuation method, did you use ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tripitaka Posted June 20, 2020 Share Posted June 20, 2020 (edited) 1 hour ago, stereo coffee said: Given a straight wire also requires shielding and represents little resistance, what attenuation method, did you use ? Thanks for asking, Stereocoffee. it's a long time ago but I reckon I used an in-line Lpad (10dB) to approximately cancel the preamp gain (12dB), with the preamp volume remaining fixed at all times at 100%. For each comparison, I would then cycle through different listening levels using the dac volume control (in dsd mode). Certainly my point is not to cast aspersions on the preamp itself (which I havent named) but rather to note that within my individual system this active preamp which 'measured' very well added nothing good and detracted from the sound in some ways. This was assessed, not with a spectrum analyser, but with the unreliable oganic material comprising my ears and brain (I cant recall whether any red wine was involved). This experiment supported my own pre-conception that preamps were unnecessary. I happen to have since changed my mind, based on acquiring a far more expensive preamp, but this also must caveated as applying to my system and my ears, so my beliefs and preferences hold possibly zero relevance to anyone else. Edited June 20, 2020 by tripitaka Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MattyW Posted June 21, 2020 Share Posted June 21, 2020 (edited) Personally I'm in the no sound signature except the source camp so I'll be trying an LDR passive pre shortly. My existing LTA MZ3 is about as good as an active gets in terms of transparency though the better low volume performances of an LDR is calling me. That's purely because I've invested in some extremely nice sources and I want to just hear those if at all possible. I do need to try a a Coffee LDR at some point. Curious in how the DACGEAR one I have coming compares. My understanding is the 2020 Coffee LDR is the best sounding of the lot Edited June 21, 2020 by MattyW 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steffen Posted June 21, 2020 Share Posted June 21, 2020 12 hours ago, tripitaka said: This was assessed, not with a spectrum analyser, but with the unreliable oganic material comprising my ears and brain (I cant recall whether any red wine was involved). Sound quality assessments are generally invalid without the use of red wine. 1 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shebang Posted June 21, 2020 Share Posted June 21, 2020 On 20/06/2020 at 10:53 PM, tripitaka said: Hi Stereocoffee, you seem rather willing to advise members but without obvious (or at least unstated) expertise for doing so, other than your understandable enthusiasm to sell a product. I genuinely wish you well with your (no doubt excellent) product but please consider how your comments might be perceived by others, this is a public forum after all. A successful ambassador for a product might consider an approach which is more accommodating of different views, which will be based on different, if not wider, experience. I couldn’t see any problem with Stereocoffee’s comment above. I suggest discuss the topic rather who he is or what he knows 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shebang Posted June 21, 2020 Share Posted June 21, 2020 (edited) 22 hours ago, tripitaka said: Thanks for asking, Stereocoffee. it's a long time ago but I reckon I used an in-line Lpad (10dB) to approximately cancel the preamp gain (12dB), with the preamp volume remaining fixed at all times at 100%. For each comparison, I would then cycle through different listening levels using the dac volume control (in dsd mode). Certainly my point is not to cast aspersions on the preamp itself (which I havent named) but rather to note that within my individual system this active preamp which 'measured' very well added nothing good and detracted from the sound in some ways. This was assessed, not with a spectrum analyser, but with the unreliable oganic material comprising my ears and brain (I cant recall whether any red wine was involved). This experiment supported my own pre-conception that preamps were unnecessary. I happen to have since changed my mind, based on acquiring a far more expensive preamp, but this also must caveated as applying to my system and my ears, so my beliefs and preferences hold possibly zero relevance to anyone else. So what was crucial in changing your mind was the “expensive”. I’ve never heard of that electronic component, or is that an emotion? Edited June 21, 2020 by Shebang Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tripitaka Posted June 22, 2020 Share Posted June 22, 2020 12 hours ago, Shebang said: I couldn’t see any problem with Stereocoffee’s comment above. I suggest discuss the topic rather who he is or what he knows Fair enough, I'm duly chastised and will keep my nose out of matters in future. What you were reading was an expression of my frustration over how many preamp threads tend to turn into 'LDR Passives are the greatest', which - even if true - makes pretty boring reading. To make certain that I dont give any future offense I will cease reading them Apologies for any offense given. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MattyW Posted June 22, 2020 Share Posted June 22, 2020 (edited) 1 hour ago, tripitaka said: What you were reading was an expression of my frustration over how many preamp threads tend to turn into 'LDR Passives are the greatest', which - even if true - makes pretty boring reading. I'm in agreement with that.... It's like "the do cables make a difference" threads.... Ditto caps etc. Some topics just can't seem to be discussed without two opposing viewpoints who voraciously defend their viewpoints unfortunately. DSD vs red book, vinyl vs digital etc etc. Edited June 22, 2020 by MattyW Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sean Perth Posted June 22, 2020 Share Posted June 22, 2020 Wow im lost totally understood the first post about choosing a Pre, then the rest went over my head. I have a musical fidelity M8 pre, I love it. But I have old ears. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Volunteer sir sanders zingmore Posted June 22, 2020 Volunteer Share Posted June 22, 2020 1 hour ago, tripitaka said: how many preamp threads tend to turn into 'LDR Passives are the greatest', It does make a change from "ME components are the greatest" but I agree, it is getting tiresome 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ittaku Posted June 22, 2020 Share Posted June 22, 2020 Just now, sir sanders zingmore said: It does make a change from "ME components are the greatest" but I agree, it is getting tiresome Last time someone kept indirectly telling us how awesome class D amps were over and over again, and dissing everything else because measurements, because blind testing, without directly mentioning the product they were selling, things went very south for the discussion, and the poster concerned. Let's not end up there again. Ironically in both situations I have respect for the components involved, I just don't see them as the answer to life, the universe, and everything. Everything has its place and I'm happy to recommend them when appropriate. 3 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Volunteer sir sanders zingmore Posted June 22, 2020 Volunteer Share Posted June 22, 2020 1 minute ago, Ittaku said: Last time someone kept indirectly telling us how awesome class D amps were over and over again, and dissing everything else because measurements, because blind testing, without directly mentioning the product they were selling, things went very south for the discussion, and the poster concerned. Let's not end up there again. Ironically in both situations I have respect for the components involved, I just don't see them as the answer to life, the universe, and everything. Everything has its place and I'm happy to recommend them when appropriate. I know whom you are referring to Con and I've said it before but it bears repeating. I know you and the chap concerned didn't see eye to eye (although I reckon you'd probably get along quite well over a beer) but I have noted that you don't let that get in the way of recommending his products. I respect that. In the preamp case, I'm actually interested in having a listen. Trouble is, I suspect people will be reluctant to lend me a unit because my negative attitude towards the "marketing" will be confused with a negative attitude towards the product (I have no real opinion of the product itself, not having heard it). 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BLAH BLAH Posted June 22, 2020 Share Posted June 22, 2020 13 minutes ago, Ittaku said: Last time someone kept indirectly telling us how awesome class D amps were over and over again, and dissing everything else because measurements, because blind testing, without directly mentioning the product they were selling, things went very south for the discussion, and the poster concerned. Let's not end up there again. Ironically in both situations I have respect for the components involved, I just don't see them as the answer to life, the universe, and everything. Everything has its place and I'm happy to recommend them when appropriate. Don't say that I've just splashed out on one of those items hoping that I get a taste of those esoteric flavours... 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ihearmusic Posted June 22, 2020 Share Posted June 22, 2020 I did have "said" pre amp loaned to me a few month ago and I was not impressed to the point of ditching my active tube pre. However I have ordered "said" pre amp 3 weeks ago (still waiting on delivery! notch notch, wink wink) ( Just received my Miflex caps from Europe I have ordered 2 weeks ago) I will integrate it in a tube buffer that is currently on the drawing board. The cost of an LDR volume control is comparable to a good quality step attenuator. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mloutfie Posted June 23, 2020 Share Posted June 23, 2020 On 22/06/2020 at 2:14 PM, sir sanders zingmore said: In the preamp case, I'm actually interested in having a listen. Trouble is, I suspect people will be reluctant to lend me a unit because my negative attitude towards the "marketing" will be confused with a negative attitude towards the product (I have no real opinion of the product itself, not having heard it). Have you asked anyone to lend you one? I definitely won't mind letting you borrow mine even for 1-2 weeks so you can make an objective comparison with whatever you're currently using. I'm just only 20 minutes drive from your place so message me if you're interested 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MattyW Posted June 23, 2020 Share Posted June 23, 2020 I do not believe there is any right or wrong way of doing things. I believe if you've an end game source component then a well built LDR preamp is as good as it gets. If not then invest in a high quality active preamp. Either way you end up spending about the same amount of money anyway. I'm of the belief that the best sounding source is the way to go as you can't add what is missing later.... Anything added after the source is simply colouration. Doesn't mean it can't sound good though. As I said before, there really is no right or wrong way. So long as it satisfies your ears, that's all that matters With my previous Gieseler GroB DAC, darTZeel NHB108B Model 1 copy power amp and Aurum Cantus F620 speakers my Linear Tube Audio MicroZOTL 3 preamp was a fantastic performer. On the other hand with my current system (see signature) the LDR Pre totally outclasses the MZ3. Different compoents and approach. The only difference is most of the expense is in the source components now and when you've an incredible source you really don't want to add another flavour to the mix 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Addicted to music Posted June 28, 2020 Share Posted June 28, 2020 On 20/06/2020 at 9:51 PM, sir sanders zingmore said: and another preamp thread turns into a "contactless attenuation" thread That’s a good thing not a bad thing even though there is marketing intent.... Contactless attenuation means no wear and tear so the SQ will be consistent for the life of that product...... 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Volunteer sir sanders zingmore Posted June 28, 2020 Volunteer Share Posted June 28, 2020 21 minutes ago, Addicted to music said: That’s a good thing not a bad thing even though there is marketing intent.... Contactless attenuation means no wear and tear so the SQ will be consistent for the life of that product...... But for years I was led to believe that ME was the best, the only. Now I have to throw that all away… it's all too confusing... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Administrator Marc Posted June 28, 2020 Administrator Share Posted June 28, 2020 On 22/06/2020 at 2:06 PM, Ittaku said: Last time someone kept indirectly telling us how awesome class D amps were over and over again, and dissing everything else because measurements, because blind testing, without directly mentioning the product they were selling, things went very south for the discussion, and the poster concerned. Let's not end up there again. Ironically in both situations I have respect for the components involved, I just don't see them as the answer to life, the universe, and everything. Everything has its place and I'm happy to recommend them when appropriate. Well said. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Addicted to music Posted June 28, 2020 Share Posted June 28, 2020 1 hour ago, sir sanders zingmore said: But for years I was led to believe that ME was the best, the only. Now I have to throw that all away… it's all too confusing... the thing is, you can utilise contactless attenuation in a ME pre or any active pre and do away that prehistoric mechanical pot and make it “better”. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Volunteer sir sanders zingmore Posted June 28, 2020 Volunteer Share Posted June 28, 2020 22 minutes ago, Addicted to music said: the thing is, you can utilise contactless attenuation in a ME pre or any active pre and do away that prehistoric mechanical pot and make it “better”. I'm pretty sure that mySanders pre already does that: The Sanders Preamp solves these problems by using the "volume control" knob to drive an optical comparitor circuit. The optical circuit operates a microprocessor that controls an electronic gain system. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Addicted to music Posted June 29, 2020 Share Posted June 29, 2020 (edited) 11 hours ago, sir sanders zingmore said: I'm pretty sure that mySanders pre already does that: The Sanders Preamp solves these problems by using the "volume control" knob to drive an optical comparitor circuit. The optical circuit operates a microprocessor that controls an electronic gain system. The Sanders preamp volume knob is an optical encoder that generates a on/off or zero/one to a basic microprocessor that controls a PGA 2130 digital attenuator.... the spec for this is +/- 0.05db gain error and +/- 0.05db gain matching for life..... Does not degrade in accuracy. https://www.ti.com/lit/ds/symlink/pga2310.pdf?ts=1593425958728&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.ti.com%2Fproduct%2FPGA2310 Edited June 29, 2020 by Addicted to music Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Volunteer sir sanders zingmore Posted June 29, 2020 Volunteer Share Posted June 29, 2020 2 hours ago, Addicted to music said: The Sanders preamp volume knob is an optical encoder that generates a on/off or zero/one to a basic microprocessor that controls a PGA 2130 digital attenuator.... the spec for this is +/- 0.05db gain error and +/- 0.05db gain matching for life..... Does not degrade in accuracy. https://www.ti.com/lit/ds/symlink/pga2310.pdf?ts=1593425958728&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.ti.com%2Fproduct%2FPGA2310 I'm not sure I understand what that means but it's good, right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gillmaverick Posted June 29, 2020 Share Posted June 29, 2020 On 18/06/2020 at 11:55 AM, vinilink said: Doesn't surprise me at all Exactly my On 18/06/2020 at 12:10 AM, JohnL said: Heard a Benchmark DAC2, an OPPO 105 and an OPPO 205 as pre amps. Then heard an ATC pre amp. Absolutely no contest.............the DAC/PRE's were all just dull, lifeless and one dimensional. The ATC pre actually drove my active speakers properly. Just my experience... Totally agree and I know what you are talking about......... 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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