Jump to content

Another Antiskate question


Recommended Posts

Good day all,

I have now had my TT for 6 months and it has played well since my initial setup issues.
Just yesterday I noticed the tone arm would head towards the outside of the TT when lifted.
I took this as a sign antiskate was too high being set at the recommended 2gms.

So I adjusted to the point the arm no longer moved in or out. ie balanced. 

Am I right in assuming this is how it should be set. To remove unequal forces on either wall of a groove?

Queen  is playing now and sounds great. 

 

Thanks for your thoughts
Peter

Link to post
Share on other sites

I don't think that's how it works.

When the stylus is clear of the record, the anti-skate would not be balanced, it would tend to pull the tonearm sideways.

It is intended to counteract the "skating force" which results from the stylus dragging on the record surface/groove.

It is generally set by matching the tracking weight scale on the anti-skating scale.  More tracking weight needs more anti-skating force.

Link to post
Share on other sites
18 minutes ago, Peter-E said:


Am I right in assuming this is how it should be set. To remove unequal forces on either wall of a groove?

 

 

Yes, 'correct' anti-skate should equalise the forces on either wall of the groove - as far as this is possible, given the amount of anti-skate required differs across the annulus of the grooves.  :(

 

But the force required in the groove ... is different to the force required when not in the groove!

 

Andy

 

  • Like 3
Link to post
Share on other sites
22 minutes ago, andyr said:

 

Yes, 'correct' anti-skate should equalise the forces on either wall of the groove - as far as this is possible, given the amount of anti-skate required differs across the annulus of the grooves.  :(

 

But the force required in the groove ... is different to the force required when not in the groove!

 

Andy

 

The sound sounds balanced from each channel when center front 
It's sett a little below the 2gms

Link to post
Share on other sites


When you lift a tone arm, the only thing that stops anti-skate moving it outwards is the friction on the lifting platform. My SME3009 has notoriously little friction on it's lifting post  With light tracking forces, the arm always moves, especially when lowering it to the record.  My cure was a strategically bluetacked piece of paper to provide more friction.

Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, aussievintage said:

When you lift a tone arm, the only thing that stops anti-skate moving it outwards is the friction on the lifting platform. My SME3009 has notoriously little friction on it's lifting post  With light tracking forces, the arm always moves, especially when lowering it to the record.  My cure was a strategically bluetacked piece of paper to provide more friction.

Mine is so bad and the reason I thought to adjust so the arm stays in the same position when lifted. The only way to cue a track otherwise was manually place the stylus on the start.

Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Peter-E said:

So I adjusted to the point the arm no longer moved in or out. ie balanced. 

For the reasons given by the others, you will not achieve  'correct' anti-skate, ie  equal forces on either wall of the groove by the method you used. 

As with out the stylus being on the record when it is rotating, there is no inward force to balance out. Your method will end up with too little pressure , when the record is turning and the arm lowered, with the result that it will have too much pressure on the inner groove.

 

One easy way to check anti skate is too get some vinyl with no grooves, such as a test record or a one sided DJ record. With the arm lowered and the record turning,  by adjusting the anti skate you should be able to get the tone arm to stay still in one position. When this is the case your will have equaled the forces.

 

It is some time said that setting the number on the anti skate to the same as the counter weight will equal the forces but this is unlikely to be correct. 

The friction on the arm that enables the forces of rotation to be equalized is achieved in a number of ways, such as magnets, a weight hanging by a thread or a spring putting pressure on the arm. In fact you could have two turntables the same ,with the same carts and the same tracking force that required different anti skate settings if say the magnets or the spring had lost some of its force.

 

Below is a picture of the anti skate set up on my Technics SLQ2.  When I first got it it was not possible to stop the arm going to the center, using a test record. I was able to correct this by bending the arm attached to the spring back a bit and this made up for the tension that the spring had lost over time.

28131724_TechnicsSLQ21.thumb.jpg.3321a7c47d6429eca9876c1d14738582.jpg

 

 

 

Link to post
Share on other sites
12 minutes ago, Peter-E said:

Mine is so bad and the reason I thought to adjust so the arm stays in the same position when lifted. The only way to cue a track otherwise was manually place the stylus on the start.

The rubber on top of the arm lifter is meant to provide the friction to stop the arm moving but over time it can harden. You can some times fix this by rubbing it with some sand paper or replacing the rubber.

 

Edited by EV Cali
Link to post
Share on other sites


All this is dependant on the platter being level and the headshell parallel with the record.

Otherwise you will be compensating for all sorts of things that shouldn't be happening. 

Antiskate has to be the last adjustment you do. 

Link to post
Share on other sites
8 hours ago, Peter-E said:

The sound sounds balanced from each channel when center front 
It's sett a little below the 2gms

If arm is moving when you lift arm, anti skate is too high. Lots of method to check anti skate, one is blank disc which IMO is crap as stylus tip cant replicate side wall friction. Rule of thumb is slightly less anti skate than tracking force, this can be turntable dependant and also stylus tip profile too ie line contact needs more due to surface area and more friction.

Anyway if arm is moving when lifted too much for sure.

Chris

Link to post
Share on other sites
13 minutes ago, cafe latte said:

If arm is moving when you lift arm, anti skate is too high.

Not true.  As discussed above, it just means insufficient friction on the lifter.  Without the skating force from the groove, that's the only thing preventing it moving outwards.

Edited by aussievintage
  • Like 3
Link to post
Share on other sites


25 minutes ago, Chigurh said:

The Hifi News test LP has a track to fine-tune the anti-skate setting.

 

It has several - so you can test the beginning, middle and end of a side.

 

Whether the anti-skate setting you end up with, using these test tracks, is actually optimal - or not - is a matter of conjecture.  :lol:

 

It's best optimised by ear ... if you believe what the late, great Allen Wright says in his "Cart Setup" white paper.

 

Andy

 

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
3 minutes ago, andyr said:

It's best optimised by ear ... if you believe what the late, great Allen Wright says in his "Cart Setup" white paper.

 

To be completely honest, I think it is overstressed these days.  Give a man an adjustment and he will fiddle.

 

If it was super important, all those secondhand records would have one groove wall worn out and the other pristine.  Yes, it does happen sometimes, but not enough to convince, also given that I have records from when I was young and played them many times on turntables with NO anti-skate.

  • Like 2
Link to post
Share on other sites
Just now, aussievintage said:

 

To be completely honest, I think it is overstressed these days.  Give a man an adjustment and he will fiddle.

 

If it was super important, all those secondhand records would have one groove wall worn out and the other pristine.  Yes, it does happen sometimes, but not enough to convince, also given that I have records from when I was young and played them many times on turntables with NO anti-skate.

 

 

Then again, av, when I sent my Benz LP to England, to be re-tipped (because I had reached my '1000 hours'), they said the outer side of the diamond was worn much more than the inner side - which would indicate I had been applying too much anti-skate.  Until then, I had always set anti-skate with a test record.

 

Andy

 

Link to post
Share on other sites
8 hours ago, andyr said:

 

Then again, av, when I sent my Benz LP to England, to be re-tipped (because I had reached my '1000 hours'), they said the outer side of the diamond was worn much more than the inner side - which would indicate I had been applying too much anti-skate.  Until then, I had always set anti-skate with a test record.

 

Andy

 

Exactly, I have a microscope and retip, it is amazing how non symmetrical some used carts I buy are worn. The antiskate on the Technics is very good as it varies depending on the arm position, the stylus seem to wear very very even on it.

Chris 

Link to post
Share on other sites


23 minutes ago, cafe latte said:

Exactly, I have a microscope and retip, it is amazing how non symmetrical some used carts I buy are worn. The antiskate on the Technics is very good as it varies depending on the arm position, the stylus seem to wear very very even on it.

Chris 

Fair enough.  The records must be more forgiving.  Non-symmetrical stylus wear is probably a better indicator. 👍

Link to post
Share on other sites
24 minutes ago, cafe latte said:

The antiskate on the Technics is very good as it varies depending on the arm position, the stylus seem to wear very very even on it.

What Technics are you referring to and how does the anti skate work to achieve  this "varies depending on the arm position" ?

Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, EV Cali said:

What Technics are you referring to and how does the anti skate work to achieve  this "varies depending on the arm position" ?

Sl1200mk2 and the G.

It is easy to do, the Technics has a "finger"that hooks into the loop of a flat round spring. As you dial in antiskate you tension the spring increasing the resistance. As the arm moves inward to the spindle the load comes off the spring reducing the antiskate force which is a really simple way of giving a varying force and it works.

Chris

Link to post
Share on other sites
18 minutes ago, cafe latte said:

Sl1200mk2 and the G.

It is easy to do, the Technics has a "finger"that hooks into the loop of a flat round spring. As you dial in antiskate you tension the spring increasing the resistance. As the arm moves inward to the spindle the load comes off the spring reducing the antiskate force which is a really simple way of giving a varying force and it works.

Chris

As is the SME3009 string on a weight.  The angle of the string, to the rod it is pulling, changes, as the arm moves towards the centre, thus varying the force.

Link to post
Share on other sites
3 minutes ago, aussievintage said:

As is the SME3009 string on a weight.  The angle of the string, to the rod it is pulling, changes, as the arm moves towards the centre, thus varying the force.

Probably, but not as much as a finger in a spring.

Chris

Link to post
Share on other sites
47 minutes ago, aussievintage said:

As is the SME3009 string on a weight.  The angle of the string, to the rod it is pulling, changes, as the arm moves towards the centre, thus varying the force.

 

Wouldn't that be the same for any arm which has a 'weight on a string', av?

 

Andy

 

Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, andyr said:

 

Wouldn't that be the same for any arm which has a 'weight on a string', av?

 

Andy

 

Yep.  I meant to say, the SME3009 string on a weight method.  I usually attribute the idea to them, but that's probably not true,. I don't know who thought of it first.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Wow. Can of worms considered open.
Ok I'll rough up the lift arm and set to the recommended 2gms. I have no means to test
Thanks for all the replies. I did learn I know SFA about turntables.

Edited by Peter-E
  • Like 2
Link to post
Share on other sites
On 17/06/2020 at 12:33 PM, Peter-E said:

Good day all,

I have now had my TT for 6 months and it has played well since my initial setup issues.
Just yesterday I noticed the tone arm would head towards the outside of the TT when lifted.
I took this as a sign antiskate was too high being set at the recommended 2gms.

So I adjusted to the point the arm no longer moved in or out. ie balanced. 

Am I right in assuming this is how it should be set. To remove unequal forces on either wall of a groove?

Queen  is playing now and sounds great. 

 

Thanks for your thoughts
Peter

Hi Peter,

 

This is normal and nothing to worry about. My Technics EPA100 does this.

 

Just set the anti skate to the same as the tracking force and be done.  In a high end system with a lot of detail you can hear the difference, imaging changes because the magnet/coils are not lined up.

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
39 minutes ago, Warren Jones said:

Hi Peter,

 

This is normal and nothing to worry about. My Technics EPA100 does this.

 

Just set the anti skate to the same as the tracking force and be done.  In a high end system with a lot of detail you can hear the difference, imaging changes because the magnet/coils are not lined up.

Not exactly true.

There is a table somewhere I cant remember who printed it and I am not going to spend hours looking for it, maybe Lenco, but big maybe. Anyway conical elliptical and line contact all have different contact surfaces. More contact will pull the arm in more for given tracking force so line contact for example will need more antiskate than an elliptical.

Chris

Link to post
Share on other sites

Anything that causes additional drag on the stylus will effect Skating force. The largest is groove modulation, a heavily modulated groove will increase Skating force.

 

So setting AS with a blank LP or an AS track on a Test LP is not the best way to go about it, first will be too little and the second too much AS.

Link to post
Share on other sites
57 minutes ago, Warren Jones said:

Anything that causes additional drag on the stylus will effect Skating force. The largest is groove modulation, a heavily modulated groove will increase Skating force.

 

So setting AS with a blank LP or an AS track on a Test LP is not the best way to go about it, first will be too little and the second too much AS.

I agree. There is another issue with blank disc, it is the point of the stylus contacting the blank disc not the contact surfaces on the sides of the tip. The more contact area the more friction so the more the pull inwards so a blank disc with tip contact has no relation to correct antiskate.

Chris

Link to post
Share on other sites

90% of all records are produced with slightly off centre stampings, so antiskate is only a guide, unless it's way out. Try hooking up two Fozgometers to your table, one for each channel so you can watch both at the same time, and see what happens with even the slightest bit of off centre. I've had audiophile albums tested this way that showed no sign of side to side arm movement, but the Foz doesn't lie, and there was opposing modulation. Setting up a strong magnifier on a stand showed that there was horizontal movement of maybe a few 10ths of a millimetre, not nearly enough for my ears to hear, but nonetheless over 100s of hours, enough to affect wear of both stylus and record. As for a blank record, I also agree with @cafe latte , but I don't think it wrong using one as a starting point to see which way the arm tends, and in what direction. My personal belief is that antiskate is more important as the effective mass rises, as regardless of what movement, vertical or horizontal, the load is greater, the friction is greater, and all of the effects are greater.

 

As for the question posed by the OP, the reasons for your arm moving could be one of many, and possibly not related to antiskate. Antiskate has to be sorted out in the groove first, then your other issue can be sorted. However, there are some simple checks you can make. First, make sure that you turntable is level, this MUST be done before any other checks or adjustments, otherwise you well be chasing your tail in all the wrong directions. Next, check that the top surface of the cueing lifter is parallel to the platter. This will ensure there is no slope for the arm to run along. If this is good, check that it remains parallel in operation, with the arm off the lifter, and on the lifter at various different positions along the lifter. If a sliding arm makes this difficult, tape a small piece of cloth to the arm at the contact point for the purpose of observation only, remove it later. If all seems good, as previously mentioned, a little roughing of the lifter surface may be necessary. 

 

Good luck.

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.




×
×
  • Create New...