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thejt

300B SET amps good with rock?

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I am running a pair of Yamaha NS1000m with a SS amp and have been considering picking up a 300B SET amp. I have tried some valves (AB push pull ~ 30W) with the Yamaha's before but while they worked really well with Jazz vocals they seemed to struggle with more bombastic music like Led Zep and Floyd. I found that they couldn't convey that energy. On paper the speakers aren't too hard to drive and so a low power amp shouldn't be problematic and i don;t listen at really loud volumes either. Anyone got experience with 300B amps they can share? I get not all amps are the same, just looking for  peoples general experience on any speakers. thanks 

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I reckon 8 watts of SET will be quite lovely at lower volumes with the Yamahas, but will not have the cojones to rock hard. 

 

If single ended is your end point you'll be wanting bigger power tubes. Have a go at a good 805 based amp and see what you think.

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For rock music I would not think 300Bs in SE would drive the 1000s loud enough. 

I would prefer to see about 500 watts a channel in SS Class AB. 

I hate distortion and if you want loud you need lots of head room. 

My SS system is 300 watts a channel  driving 86 db 1 watt/ I metre Bandor drivers and I don't listen loud. 

That being said an SE 807 amp I have drives Rola 12ux's pretty loud. 

 

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Posted (edited)

No.That would be just about the last sort of amp you would want for that sort of music with those speakers.You would risk damaging the drivers.

 

Edited by THOMO

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It can be be done.......but

 

Choose your speakers wisely.....think Klipsch Cornwall 4, not cheap but can seriously rock.

 

YMMV

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I have tried a 3W shanling class A system and that was pretty good, better than the AB push pull despite far less power. When I say good with rock, I'm really taking about conveying that energy more than blowing the roof off. How well does the crunch of the guitars come through at the half way point of whole lotta love? Can it keep up with the details and dynamics of Floyd?

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Well there are a lot of crappy 30 watt push pull valve amps around.Especially the cheap Chinese ones.There are also some very good ones which should work well with the NS1000s.

 

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Posted (edited)

For what it's worth, ten days ago I listened to another members NS 1000Ms being driven by a 22 wpc SET Line Magnetic LM 518iA (845 valves) in his decent sized room. Not only was the sound gorgeous, but it drove the NS 1000s without breaking a sweat, without an inkling of stress. The sound levels were sometimes nudging 96dB to 98dB............neither of us wanted more. Naturally, wanting lots more than that then one perhaps needs to be sensible.

 

Too much guessing goes on sometimes.............you cannot have an opinion if you haven't heard it.

 

 

Edited by Smp

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1 hour ago, Mendes said:

It can be be done.......but

 

Choose your speakers wisely.....think Klipsch Cornwall 4, not cheap but can seriously rock.

 

YMMV

And Cornwalls have just gone up $3.5k.

How does that effect the rock'n'roll/ vfm?

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A pure 8 Watt 300B SET will not cut the mustard, then again 8 Watts doesn’t make it with some highly efficient speakers.
 

However...... up the anti to 18 Watts with a pair of Parallel Single Ended 300 B’s or 21 Watts of push pull 300B’s and the equation changes.  As Smp has heard, 22 Watts of  LM 845 will do it,  50 Watts of  Cary 211 AE 805’s will do it too with NS1000’s. Will they Rock as hard as 600 Watts of Bryston? Well no , but they might rock hard enough and you might like HOW they rock more.

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1 minute ago, deanB said:

And Cornwalls have just gone up $3.5k.

How does that effect the rock'n'roll/ vfm?

Klipsch are already overpriced here compared to the states too. We pay almost double for the RP-600M which I am interested in. 

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10 minutes ago, deanB said:

And Cornwalls have just gone up $3.5k.

How does that effect the rock'n'roll/ vfm?

Ha ha, I said not cheap....👍

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19 minutes ago, thejt said:

Klipsch are already overpriced here compared to the states too. We pay almost double for the RP-600M which I am interested in. 

Don’t hesitate, the Klipsch RP-600s are worth every penny.................

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2 minutes ago, Smp said:

Don’t hesitate, the Klipsch RP-600s are worth every penny.................

If the Yamaha's don't work out, I think they will be required!

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Posted (edited)
15 minutes ago, thejt said:

If the Yamaha's don't work out, I think they will be required!

If you haven’t compared the two together and if you can, do so - I personally prefer the smaller RP 600Ms, although they are not 96dB but closer to 90dB. Again, the same LM 845 iA drove them very well too.

Edited by Smp

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7 minutes ago, Smp said:

If you haven’t compared the two together and if you can, do so - I prefer the smaller RP 600Ms, although they are not 96dB but closer to 90dB. Again, the same LM 845 iA drove them very well too.

I will find a store which stocks them and check it out. thanks

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I have been using this 17 year old 32kg Chinese built KT88 tube 50W amp with NS1000 ported versions successfully. Sound quality from the amp is very good, enough drive, beautiful sweet mids and treble, imaging, extreme micro details. These and similar Chinese built ones can be found for around around $800 used and new on eBay. Not sure if all of them are good and reliable so try to audition carefully.

 

I find NS1000 bass to be quite thin and insufficient though accurate enough and don’t think they are great rock music speakers but there may be other amps out there that bring out the bass. Tube amps are quite warm and full in the bass so are not too bad. A big fat bass 50W+ true Class A solid state amp is probably needed.

 

5D119F41-D392-4F91-B308-845474E16427.jpeg

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4 hours ago, thejt said:

I am running a pair of Yamaha NS1000m with a SS amp and have been considering picking up a 300B SET amp. I have tried some valves (AB push pull ~ 30W) with the Yamaha's before but while they worked really well with Jazz vocals they seemed to struggle with more bombastic music like Led Zep and Floyd. I found that they couldn't convey that energy. On paper the speakers aren't too hard to drive and so a low power amp shouldn't be problematic and i don;t listen at really loud volumes either. Anyone got experience with 300B amps they can share? I get not all amps are the same, just looking for  peoples general experience on any speakers. thanks 

If you are keen, I could drag my 300B around your place and we could have a listen. That might satisfy your curiosity.

You could also bring your music around my place some time and hear how the ZU speakers can rock or not.

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Posted (edited)

With the NS1000m I would stick with a push/pull tube amp as you'll get more powerful options at a better price point. If you want to go SET you really do need to run more efficient speakers..... There are many 45-50WPC push-pull tube integrateds around to choose from. I would suggest something based around KT120 as they really have the energy required for rock and also have some of the lovely midrange you expect from EL34's.

 

Other interesting designs which really sound louder than you'd otherwise think are the Linear Tube Audio amps using David Bernings ZOTL tech, or the Wavebourn Edelweiss range of amps which use hybrid VR tube & MOSFETs to stabilize voltages. Both examples work in full class A as well though put of less heat than you'd expect. Quite innovative  designs.  :)

Edited by MattyW

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Although many may not believe there was a time when I was running 8 glorious watts of power through my Omega full rangers and ive been known to spin a rock album or two and perhaps many more metal orientated albums.

 

Really enjoyed it for what it was and depending on the efficiency/synergy of the amp/speaker combo rock can sound rather good so yes it can be done.

IMG_3412.JPG

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I think people here are rightly comparing apples with apples when they talk about the synergy of the amp and the loudspeaker. A well-made and executed amplifier circuit coupled with an efficient speaker (at least 90dB) and a benign impedance (not falling below 4 ohms for example) implies a good match for most music, including rock. And not just because of some 8-10W output--but the control the 300B amp has over the speaker. The transformer quality of the valve amp is just as important as the type of valve used.

 

Not all 300B amps are created equal. Some are better than others. The Air Tight/Cary/Line Magnetic/  Audionote/Weston/Supratek standard is a high one, worth saluting. Then there are the 'premium' 300B valves available. It is possible to find a good 300B amp for reasonable money.

 

If you are not wedded to 300B iterations then the single-ended pentodes (or push-pull)  can be a revelation for extra oomph. Here I'm thinking Leben, Line Magnetic, Primaluna, Weston... VTL, VAC and going on up. 

 

Your musical preferences should dictate the kind of amp you require for your listening most of the time.

 

But you always need to listen to the combination first--there can be some strange sonic surprises awaiting!

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Posted (edited)

Aye, my Oldchen K3 is actually a tetrode type amp apparently. Sounds great, though I need to get around to selling it at some point.

 

Will be removing the big Duelund JAM caps from it first though. Necessary placement of those caps caused RF issues  :(

Edited by MattyW

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A Consonance Cyber 100 15th anniversary amp would go really well with NS1000, from past experience. KT150 tubes would be even better combination. You can find a few videos of such combo in my YouTube channel, see link below 👇🏼

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On 09/06/2020 at 10:29 PM, Ooogh said:

A pure 8 Watt 300B SET will not cut the mustard, then again 8 Watts doesn’t make it with some highly efficient speakers.
 

However...... up the anti to 18 Watts with a pair of Parallel Single Ended 300 B’s or 21 Watts of push pull 300B’s and the equation changes.  As Smp has heard, 22 Watts of  LM 845 will do it,  50 Watts of  Cary 211 AE 805’s will do it too with NS1000’s. Will they Rock as hard as 600 Watts of Bryston? Well no , but they might rock hard enough and you might like HOW they rock more.

I Agree, twin 300B's in parallel will drive things nicely. I have a pair of Audile 300B's running some Jamo C607's (Not NS100s sure, but 89DB efficient so similar in a way) and they drive them beyond levels I need, and outperform every other amp I've tried. Not quite the rock solid bass of the 300Watt Magnus amp I did have, but better midrange, and amazing midrange/guitar.

 

As part of my next step in hifi however i will need to go simple so will be hitting the integrated track, so I either need to sell them or store them for 10+ years

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6WPC is fine driving a full range + tweeters but if you've a woofer as well you really need to bi-amp.  :)

 

Course, if I weren't running open baffle there'd be greater efficiency. A fair bit is lost in OB but the sound it has is totally worth it ;)

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