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44 minutes ago, Monkeyboi said:

Thank you for your 2 cents worth. I'll treat it with the contempt it deserves.  BTW, to go along with your nit picking I'll just like to make it abundantly clear that I have no "HT recievers" in my audio only listening set up. 😜

I’m not sure why it deserves any contempt at all and what I was nit picking about. Just responding to you from our list of gear and your previous comment about HT sound being ok on SACD and if you are happy with that.

 

Apologies if I touched any raw nerves.

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I have hundreds of hybrid SACD titles and the same on good ol' Red Book CDs.  Can't honestly say the CD layer of SACD / CD hybrid discs are "nobbled" to make the SACD "sound better" when comparing the

The sound quality you ultimately get from any SACD (like CD etc.), will always be determined by the lower/lowest quality component/s in your system. A high quality SACD (remember not all SACD's are cr

The value part of your question is important here.  Playing the SACD layer in a high quality system can sound noticeably different ( not necessarily better).  I certainly do not think you will get muc

2 hours ago, Snoopy8 said:

There are unfortunately.  They also play the trick of making the Redbook slightly softer.

Can't comment on personal experience with this.  Could it be the electronics have slightly different output?

 

From a mastering point of view, I would expect the redbook to be perceived to be louder, as it often has higher compression added to it.  The SACD layer would sound softer in comparison if it had less compression added to the mastering. 

 

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3 hours ago, Ozcall said:

If you connect an SACD player to an external dac,then you are using pcm output rather than dsd to the dac as Sony didn't want folk making dsd copies of their SACD's so I don't think there would be any benefit. One of my diy dacs is dsd input only so it will play a dsd signal natively. The dac also has an upsampling input board that  can convert pcm to dsd which allows me to listen to all my music at something aproaching SACD quality in theory. The sound from this dac is, to my ears, better than my pcm only dacs.

 

There are some examples of SACD transports that allow DSD output to a DAC, the PS Audio DirectStream Memory player being one that comes to mind.  The trick with these transports is that their output has to be encoded such that the stream can’t be copied by a computer.  SACD and DVDA were originally conceived (and pushed) as the “newest and best” due to the increasing prevalence of ripping of CDs, eroding record company profits... The marketing to the public was “SACD sounds better”.  The reason it died was because the encoding prevented ripping (with the exception of a certain vintage of Sony PS3 that allowed a DSD output).  The general public didn’t care about SQ, they wanted access to music for free.  Something of a sad story IMO, with a legacy to this day, being that Sony still won’t allow unencrypted DSD output, despite the obvious demise of the format!

Edited by Stereophilus
PS2 changed to PS3
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11 minutes ago, Stereophilus said:

There are some examples of SACD transports that allow DSD output to a DAC, the PS Audio DirectStream Memory player being one that comes to mind.  The trick with these transports is that their output has to be encoded such that the stream can’t be copied by a computer.  SACD and DVDA were originally conceived (and pushed) as the “newest and best” due to the increasing prevalence of ripping of CDs, eroding record company profits... The marketing to the public was “SACD sounds better”.  The reason it died was because the encoding prevented ripping (with the exception of a certain vintage of Sony PS2 that allowed a DSD output).  The general public didn’t care about SQ, they wanted access to music for free.  Something of a sad story IMO, with a legacy to this day, being that Sony still won’t allow unencrypted DSD output, despite the obvious demise of the format!

I don’t have SACD but like listening to it compared to normal CD and can hear the difference. The whole thing including its failure at wider market uptake is summarised here https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Super_Audio_CD

 

With an interesting quote:

Since the Meyer-Moran study in 2007[42], approximately 80 studies have been published on high-resolution audio, about half of which included blind tests. Dr. Joshua Reiss, of the Queen Mary University of London, and a member of the Audio Engineering Society (AES) Board of Governors, performed a meta-analysis on 20 of the published tests that included sufficient experimental detail and data. In a paper published in the July 2016 issue of the AES Journal,[43] Dr. Reiss says that, although the individual tests had mixed results, and that the effect was, "small and difficult to detect," the overall result was that trained listeners could distinguish between hi-resolution recordings and their CD equivalents under blind conditions: "Overall, there was a small but statistically significant ability to discriminate between standard quality audio (44.1 or 48 kHz, 16 bit) and high resolution audio (beyond standard quality). When subjects were trained, the ability to discriminate was far more significant."

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1 minute ago, Al.M said:

I’m not sure why it deserves any contempt at all and what I was nit picking about. Just responding to you from our list of gear and your previous comment about HT sound being ok on SACD and if you are happy with that.

 

Apologies if I touched any raw nerves.

No problemo.

 

My signature doesn't represent the status quo as far as my audio or even my video equipment goes.  I haven't updated my signature list as any new entries can't be added to a list as lengthy as my existing list due to the newer limit on the number of character allowed.

 

Unlike most HT setups, my multichannel system doesn't suffer the typical shortcomings of most HT setups which have small rear speakers, a rather dialogue focused centre speaker and a LFE (subwoofer) set up for boom, crashes and explosions you find in a lot of action movies.  Rather, my current system in the audio studio is set up for music listening has large full range speakers and a subwoofer set up for music listening with no blending necessary to compensate for the lack of bass in the other 5 channels.  IME, most systems set up for rarely play music really well no matter how good the gear is as many users opt for the accentuated bass boom of the sub-woofer (generally cranked on average 15dB too high) for music because they want the floor rattling effects from the explosions in preference to a more natural balance you'd expect from music in a properly mastered multichannel mix.  SACD, just like DVD-A, dts-CD and flac multichannel files comes in a various channel multichannel configurations of 2.1, 3.0, 3.1, 4.0, 4.1, 5.0 and 5.1 as you are probably aware.  To get the best music sound reproduction from any of these formats you really need a good set up with preference to 5 full range speakers of equal or near quality / tonal balance and a sub woofer set up for music rather than HT.

 

I can see why many people negatively critique multichannel music.  Mostly because its played in a HT optimised setup which seems to be tailored for the person's movie watching preferences and the speakers are more than often not placed for the best acoustical performance, but more to "blend in" with the room furniture and the WAF / SAF criteria.  Many auto setup HT processors / receivers tend IME to focus on movie sound rather than music resulting in aggressively loud rear speaker levels and the LFE channel ending up way too loud.

 

If someone hasn't heard a pretty good well set up multichannel music system I would sincerely suggest they take the time to do so before relegating the multichannel audio formats to the bin.  

 

As for decoding multichannel using a HT receiver or processor.  Yes, I have used and still use this method on players that have no multichannel decoding ability.  In my case I don't use the power amp section of these receivers. Instead I take the decoded audio at line level from the pre-amp outputs and feed those into separate power amplifiers. In my case the front speakers are Equinox Jupiters with a nominal 2 ohms impedance which most HT receivers and indeed some power amplifiers would have a lot of trouble driving to loud levels.  Also the Quad ESL2905 electrostatics can in parts of the frequency spectrum present a bit of a low impedance load to the amplifier, hence I drive both these pairs of speakers independently with a ME-850 HiCap which isn't troubled by even a 0.5 ohm load.  :)

 

Just a side note:  Even in a properly set up music optimised configuration some multichannel recordings have IMHO overly loud rear channels.  I attribute this to poor mastering.

 

Cheers,

Alan R.

 

 

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4 hours ago, att23 said:

 

I am a big fan of SACD, however my advice is, unless if you are into Classical music and into surround sound, there’s probably not a lot of incentives to get into $$$$ SACD now. 

 

I agree with this. If you are into classical,  then there are lots of beautifully recorded SACD  titles at reasonable prices. But if its jazz,  rock,  pop you are after,  the prices are steep,  and many of these recordings are available cheaper as hi res downloads. 

 

I use a vintage Sony DVP 9000ES, which produces wonderful sounds on many discs. I only listen to two channel. 

 

 But as others have said,  there is nothing magic about SACD vs other formats - it is all about the mastering on particular recordings.   Some recent  PCM masters are better in my opinion than the SACD releases - eg Stevie Wonder Songs in the Key of Life.

 

That said,  there are great recordings available on SACD - for example if you are into baroque,  there is a lot out there,  and many discs around the $20 mark, which is sometimes cheaper than the equivalent hi res download. 

 

Some rock and pop can be affordable and sounds great too - for example, the Bob Dylan remasters,   and the Elton John masters (eg Madman Across  the Water), are amazing on SACD.  

Edited by mkaramazov
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On 07/06/2020 at 1:08 PM, Stereophilus said:

There are some examples of SACD transports that allow DSD output to a DAC, the PS Audio DirectStream Memory player being one that comes to mind.  The trick with these transports is that their output has to be encoded such that the stream can’t be copied by a computer.  SACD and DVDA were originally conceived (and pushed) as the “newest and best” due to the increasing prevalence of ripping of CDs, eroding record company profits... The marketing to the public was “SACD sounds better”.  The reason it died was because the encoding prevented ripping (with the exception of a certain vintage of Sony PS3 that allowed a DSD output).  The general public didn’t care about SQ, they wanted access to music for free.  Something of a sad story IMO, with a legacy to this day, being that Sony still won’t allow unencrypted DSD output, despite the obvious demise of the format!

I didn't know that the PSaudio transport could do that but it is probably not in the OP's price range given that it would also require a dac capable of accepting the signal. What I was trying to say ,in my backward way, is that it may be possible for the op to get a lift in sound quality by buying the sort of dac I was describing. The dac is available as a finished board for just over the $200  mark and only requires an input/resampler board and a couple of power supplies to function :  https://www.aliexpress.com/item/32796691110.html?spm=a2g0o.productlist.0.0.4a0c69b6AnKbay&algo_pvid=6e40222a-99a2-4c97-a3ed-6573ea743a40&algo_expid=6e40222a-99a2-4c97-a3ed-6573ea743a40-4&btsid=0ab6d67915915964343246034e6ce8&ws_ab_test=searchweb0_0,searchweb201602_,searchweb201603_

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On 07/06/2020 at 2:34 PM, att23 said:

If I’m not mistaken, apart from a few very limited or vintage SACD players, almost all recent SACD players do not allow SACD layer to be transmitted via digital coax. It must be analogue output. So your idea goes out the window because you will only hear the CD layer anyway. 
 

The SACD format is locked or restricted by Sony that way.

I can play my non-hybrid SACDs on my recently acquired Sony UBP-X700 4K/Blu ray player through my RME ADI-2 DAC (to active loud speakers) via the coaxial I/O.

 

The signal is converted to PCM for transmission via S/PDIF or Toslink for copy right reasons.  At least I can enjoy the music on my many SACDs without any issues.   I haven't had a dedicated SACD player for ages, so my SACDs were gathering dust before I bought the Sony.

Edited by Genesis56
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This may be off topic slightly but you can “backup” your sacds using a relatively inexpensive universal player and then feed the files to a compatible DAC via a streamer/network bridge/USB.  An Oppo 103 or 105, a few Sony models and some other universal players can be used backup your sacd. 

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In many cases you can just buy the files in DSD format, instead of the physical disc. That’s what I’m doing. I haven’t owned a disc player (other than a CD/DVD/BD-ROM drive in a computer) for some years.

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15 minutes ago, muriwai said:

I would love to know to do this?

https://audiophilestyle.com/forums/topic/28569-sacd-ripping-using-an-oppo-or-pioneer-yes-its-true/page/176/?tab=comments#comment-940992

 

There ya go!

 

It aint easy, but it's possible (200 pages just for that thread!). I just picked up one of the compatible players from cash converters for $90 in great condition but I'm yet to try

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14 hours ago, Steffen said:

In many cases you can just buy the files in DSD format, instead of the physical disc.

This is what I do.

14 hours ago, Papajero said:

Understatement of the year. If you are tech savvy and prepared to scour the internet for hours to find instructions on extracting with your particular model, use the right software and then go through the inevitable trouble shooting process, yeah it's a doddle :)

Edited by lemarquis
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I have to admit I was blown away on several counts...

The apparent difficulty and "programming" ability required

The number of people in the thread who seem to understand what the hell is required 😨, because it is pretty much a foreign language to me and I don't (didn't!) consider myself an idiot.

The level of support being offered to people who fail repeatedly. There is a LOT of help on offer if you get it wrong

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On 07/06/2020 at 11:59 AM, betty boop said:

there are some 5.1 tracks that were made for said that ways...dire straits brothers in arms is a good example....

Some said SACD in 5.1 sounds so Gimmick for them. But I like it in 5.1 Just like Betty Boop said. Also you should listen to both formats then you should know is it really better, for me unless you have a really really High End System $15k+ then maybe you will can tell a big different in sounds🤔👍

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4 hours ago, Zodiac-12 said:

Some said SACD in 5.1 sounds so Gimmick for them.

Funny you should say that. I’ve only ever listened to two 5.1 music discs, they were collections of Björk songs on either SACD or DVD-A (I suspect the latter, since I was using a Panasonic DVD player at the time). The discs contained both two-channel and 5.1 versions.

 

I didn’t find the 5.1 tracks gimmicky, I found them weird and unpleasant. Instead of the usual concert performance style presentation I was suddenly in the middle amongst the musicians, with the singer just about right in my head. Why would you want that? Is that a musician thing, where they like to hear themselves surrounded by their band mates?

 

I remember that there was a setting on the Panasonic player that let you choose between two positions of the virtual listener, right in the middle (as above), and a bit more forward. Neither of them sounded attractive to me.

 

Call me old-fashioned, but I like to be an audience member at a musical performance. For me, the music has to start about where my speakers are, and extend from there into the distance for as much as the recording (and my system) allows.

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6 hours ago, lemarquis said:

Understatement of the year. If you are tech savvy and prepared to scour the internet for hours to find instructions on extracting with your particular model, use the right software and then go through the inevitable trouble shooting process, yeah it's a doddle :)

You can go at this backwards: find out which players have pre-written batch files to do what you need and then go find one of those players

 

I managed with no expertise this way

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If you have half decent Audio store owner nearby simply explain what you after and ask if they will loan you a suitable SACD player to trial for a day or so, then make the call. Also don't forget many of these stores carry used gear that would be suitable if you cannot find something on here for your budget first.Good luck

Edited by agelessgoodguy
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Oops, accidentally replied again to an old thread.  Please ignore

Edited by Snoopy8
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Yes Papajero has the link it is a monster thread but it is real and it works.

 

I went down the rabbit hole.

 

For years I wanted to be able to rip an SACD for higher than CD quality 2 channel playback for those albums where the only way to get this was SACD. I was originally looking at a PS3 etc but they were getting older and more expensive then I happened on the above thread. I have an IT background and was able to source an ebay special for $50 and rip SACD. It can be fiddly but it worked for me.

 

I have a handful of titles perhaps six now and have been able to play them back both on the HT system 2 channel and 5.1 channel as well as on the main rig via my Chord Qutest.

 

Regarding  2 channel playback the differences are subtle (Note I think Chord devices play back redbook files very well and this could narrow the difference). Most of the DSD rips played back on my main rig are audiophile "better" ie easier detail, better texture, better sense of space if appropriate though the formats were far more alike than different and conveyed similar enjoyment / emotion. Great albums still sound great. I also like it intellectually and for this reason it will be in my playback chain. I like it sonically but I am not sure everyone would think it is a better sound.

 

Another reason to consider if it is worth it is you can now stream hi-res via Qobuz and buy hi-res via say HDtracks. For me there is no point getting an SACD when a 24/192 PCM version is available (I note provenience of the source material can be difficult to ascertain). I have found the number of SACDs I want are few and they can be quite expensive second hand.

 

For me I am glad I have done it did and would be interested in trying my discs in a player the next time I am shopping in my LHS. Are you able to take your hybrid discs down and see for yourself?

 

Cheers, Nick

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited by nandrzej
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A number of labels are still releasing SACD remasters of the old Classical catalogue (e.g. Tower Records in Japan). If you can manage to listen to a friend's SACD rips of these they are fantastic. Quite superior to the Hi Res versions for the reasons you have mentioned.

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  • 4 months later...

A bit late to this thread but I've some hopefully useful experiences to share. After much trial and error... I have now acquired a Sony xa5400es sacd with Modwright truth upgrade... The moderate upgrade is not necessary but is a big improvement over the already well thought of 5400. This feeds a Sony str-da 5400es receiver via HDMI cable. I am using this in a two channel setup which is feeding to Opera Secondas. Each Sony unit has Sony's proprietary H.A.T.S. technology that increases the playback clarity to an unbelievable level for both sacd and Redbook CD playback. The key now is to keep in mind that any well recorded CD will sound better than a poorly recorded CD which for me means avoiding highly compressed CDs. I primarily look for CDs release before 1992 or well after 2010 unless it is a higher quality label especially with jazz or classical music. If you're really into maintaining and enjoying sacd and CD playback I'd highly recommend pursuing this line of equipment... It was an unbelievable change for me...

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Fortuitous and interesting, I am currently on the hunt for a better audio experience as well, I am currently looking to buy  either a DVD/SACD player, as many, from reading various posts, seem to experience fabulous playback for CD/SACD from some of these DVD Multi Disc players, another option is obviously, also, a Blu Ray player, with the recommendation of the Sony with H.A.T.S. technology, is this something that is generic to all Sony units ? another question that I have is, i have managed to track down a Sony DVP NS92V, is this a good one to consider ? and how would this unit compare to the Sony BDP S 380 - S 580 or S 590 with both CD Redbook and SACD playback ?

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Revisited my SACD collection after acquiring the Marantz SACD 30n... and it's been fun.. So IMO, there's definitely a place for two channel SACD appreciation. Cheers

Edited by petetherock
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I've recently acquired a Marantz KI Ruby SACD  player, and after hundreds of hours running in, I've come to the conclusion that well recorded CD is  just as good as SACD, problem is, most CD'S are not well recorded, so in general SACD sounds better.   

I've a couple of CD'S sourced from Asia, the height, depth,  and sense of realism from these recordings is one of those glorious musical moments.

 It's a tough situation for many these days when you consider that CD players sound so much better than they used to and streaming is so good done right. I'll probably use the DAC in the Marantz and get hold of a half decent streamer i.e.; Melco, Innous, not in a hurry as I'm still enjoying spinning disks.

 

Frank. 

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And that’s why I bought the 30n..

i get to play my discs and make use of a pretty decent DAC which comes from the higher models 👍 

Edited by petetherock
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16 hours ago, Digital Man said:

Fortuitous and interesting, I am currently on the hunt for a better audio experience as well, I am currently looking to buy  either a DVD/SACD player, as many, from reading various posts, seem to experience fabulous playback for CD/SACD from some of these DVD Multi Disc players, another option is obviously, also, a Blu Ray player, with the recommendation of the Sony with H.A.T.S. technology, is this something that is generic to all Sony units ? another question that I have is, i have managed to track down a Sony DVP NS92V, is this a good one to consider ? and how would this unit compare to the Sony BDP S 380 - S 580 or S 590 with both CD Redbook and SACD playback ?

When recommending a DVD/SACD player OPPO would be a good choice.If you want the best experience I would recommend the Last of the Esoteric Universal players.Take into account SACD players (disc spinning is about 4 times the speed of CD)

 

sidebar11.jpg.fb8a38abce80540f0b30d5db7785f4cc.jpg

 

sidebar12.jpg.159acc8f91dae2d9267737d9b815ec64.jpg

 

 

 

VRDS-NEO mechanism:
Ultra-high-precision turntable system
When a SACD or DVD disc is played, the higher-speed rotation required for playback causes increased and unwanted vibrations. These vibrations cause the disc surface to shake, making it difficult for the laser pickup to accurately read the data. The VRDS turntable is designed to physically correct all vibrations and fully stabilize the disc so that adverse effects during high-speed rotation are minimized. High-speed rotation also necessitates that the spindle shaft be more rigid. The turntable, (the heart of the VRDS mechanism), is supported by several high-precision, highly rigid mechanical components.

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On 01/01/2021 at 11:09 PM, maximus said:

I've recently acquired a Marantz KI Ruby SACD  player, and after hundreds of hours running in, I've come to the conclusion that well recorded CD is  just as good as SACD, problem is, most CD'S are not well recorded, so in general SACD sounds better.   

I've a couple of CD'S sourced from Asia, the height, depth,  and sense of realism from these recordings is one of those glorious musical moments.

Agree it is the mastering that matters most, and some, but not all (particularly the mass produced classical) SACDs sound better than the equivalent CDs.  However, it is difficult to compare using the same masters but these do:

http://www.2l.no/hires/

 

I can pick the difference between the DSD and PCM on my Kii Three.  But it does depend on SACD player or DAC being used, the rest of the music chain and listening preferences.  For one perspective (and they are of course biased towards DSD):

https://help.nativedsd.com/en/articles/94492-the-subtle-differences-between-dsd-and-pcm

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Regards Stump, yes, the OPPO has come back onto my radar, so to speak, I was thinking of starting a new thread, in relation to this, but I will post first here and see how I go, so, what I am now, still considering is this, am I better off to keep and run audio separately or go for a one box solution, namely, an OPPO ? I mean, I will, obviously have to have some kind of blu ray player either way, but, should I also consider to run a separate, dedicated audio system, if, using something like an OPPO for audio, is inferior to dedicated separates ? and are the differences between them for audio big or small ?

Edited by Digital Man
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