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New Black sl1200g


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I also have a GR and have been toying with the idea of getting the GAE.

Dealers will not discount on it so will be full rrp which is $6999.

The GR is imo the sweet spot performance and price wise and sounds superb with my Dynavector 17D3.

Maybe the GAE will sound slightly better but ime the cartridge is the biggest determining factor in sound quality and once you have a rock solid , high quality Japanese DD turntable the differences between higher end models are subtle so I think I'll stick with my GR .

 

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Yes Mark, I don't think there will be any discount with the limited GAE - which means I'd probably be looking at $5K - $5.5K difference after selling my GR.

That's a lot of cash for what might be a small improvement.

I've read some reviews that say the G/GAE is much better than the GR, but I suspect there is some audiophile hyperbole in those comments. Also, were both tables identically setup with the same cartridges etc?

I've read others that say the 2 models sound quite similar.

It might be a case where you'd have to hear them in a careful A/B comparison to identify the differences - and if that's the case can the differences be called significant?

 

I've made a preliminary enquiry and the Australian delivered GAE'S are not expected until Sept/Oct - but of course people are pre-ordering them and only 40 will be available for Oz. 

Decisions, decisions.

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FWIW, this guy says:

 

"Many have asked whether there is a significant difference between the SL-1200G and SL-1200 / SL-1210GR. The truth is that the two turntables do sound similar in some areas yet vastly different in others. The SL-1200G is notably quieter, offers much better imaging, far more detail and its sound is more uncoloured than that of the 1200GR, not that the sound of the 1200GR is especially coloured in comparison to similarly priced rivals. The two do sound similar in terms of pitch stability and of course both are speed accurate. I suppose the best way to describe the difference in sound is that the SL-1200G is a more ‘confident’ sounding turntable, more authoritative with a greater sense of scale and dimensionality which really does add to the overall musical picture."

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Not sure if this has been mentioned, but a slight disappointment with the AUS deliveries of the GAE is that they are not coming with the specially designed Nagaoka cartridge. My understanding is these are only for the UK. 

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On 16/06/2020 at 1:20 PM, Tobes said:

FWIW, this guy says:

 

"Many have asked whether there is a significant difference between the SL-1200G and SL-1200 / SL-1210GR. The truth is that the two turntables do sound similar in some areas yet vastly different in others. The SL-1200G is notably quieter, offers much better imaging, far more detail and its sound is more uncoloured than that of the 1200GR, not that the sound of the 1200GR is especially coloured in comparison to similarly priced rivals. The two do sound similar in terms of pitch stability and of course both are speed accurate. I suppose the best way to describe the difference in sound is that the SL-1200G is a more ‘confident’ sounding turntable, more authoritative with a greater sense of scale and dimensionality which really does add to the overall musical picture."

IMO (I have a G, sp10mk2 and a sl1210mk2 modded) is there is very little difference between a modded sl1200 and a G. I have damper, psu, arm rewire and feet. Difference to the G is tiny now, and maybe the arm on the G is a tiny bit better and just a bit cleaner, but if so it is small. I have started using both setting up with different carts as differences are so small not bothered.

Unmodded difference for sure, but sl1200mk2 is still really nice stock.

Chris

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1 hour ago, cafe latte said:

IMO (I have a G, sp10mk2 and a sl1210mk2 modded) is there is very little difference between a modded sl1200 and a G. I have damper, psu, arm rewire and feet. Difference to the G is tiny now, and maybe the arm on the G is a tiny bit better and just a bit cleaner, but if so it is small. I have started using both setting up with different carts as differences are so small not bothered.

Unmodded difference for sure, but sl1200mk2 is still really nice stock.

Chris

Like you i have a fully modded 1200 (KAB USA M5G). You're right the modded 1200 may be very close to the G, but even though i've always loved the M5G look and feel, when you see the new G in the flesh, it's just next level fit/finish/look IMO. It's super cool, albeit at a hefty price. Mind you, the replacement price on my modded KAB 1200 (not that you can get them anymore) when i last did the calcs was somewhere in the 4-6k range so still up there in price.

 

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1 hour ago, cafe latte said:

IMO (I have a G, sp10mk2 and a sl1210mk2 modded) is there is very little difference between a modded sl1200 and a G. I have damper, psu, arm rewire and feet. Difference to the G is tiny now, and maybe the arm on the G is a tiny bit better and just a bit cleaner, but if so it is small. I have started using both setting up with different carts as differences are so small not bothered.

Unmodded difference for sure, but sl1200mk2 is still really nice stock.

Chris

What carts are you using?

 

Have you considered swapping in a different tonearm? if so which one... crazy money but i'd love to put in a SME V like they do with the Timestep 1200G.

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7 hours ago, wikeeboy said:

What carts are you using?

 

Have you considered swapping in a different tonearm? if so which one... crazy money but i'd love to put in a SME V like they do with the Timestep 1200G.

I have about 60 carts so quite a few. London super gold, Grado statement reference, benzt micro glider, Dynavector 17d3, EPC205mk3 all sorts of stuff. Re changing the arm no. I have an Eminent Technology air arm on the SP10mk2 which is worth more than the turntable and I still prefer the G so clearly the arm both on the G and the mk2 is doing a great job. People are very quick to want to replace the Technics arm, because the mags say you need to. Remember the Technics arm has fantastic bearing with a friction of 7 mg from memory which is stunningly good. Few arms will have bearing that good at any price. It would be interesting to hear a Technics with a sme V arm, but I would not swap out the original for any thing less than that. I honestly feel the Rega arm swaps are a downgrade.

Chris

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I bought my SL1210MK2 new in 2007 for $800. 

Biggest bargain in the world of hifi imo.

When the same cartridge is mounted there isn't a lot of difference between it and my SL1210GR tbh. 

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3 hours ago, cafe latte said:

I have about 60 carts so quite a few. London super gold, Grado statement reference, benzt micro glider, Dynavector 17d3, EPC205mk3 all sorts of stuff. Re changing the arm no. I have an Eminent Technology air arm on the SP10mk2 which is worth more than the turntable and I still prefer the G so clearly the arm both on the G and the mk2 is doing a great job. People are very quick to want to replace the Technics arm, because the mags say you need to. Remember the Technics arm has fantastic bearing with a friction of 7 mg from memory which is stunningly good. Few arms will have bearing that good at any price. It would be interesting to hear a Technics with a sme V arm, but I would not swap out the original for any thing less than that. I honestly feel the Rega arm swaps are a downgrade.

Chris

 

Wow, that's a serious number of carts mate!

 

Good feedback on the G tonearm. I don't think i'll be in a rush to change, especially at the SME V's asking price!

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On 17/06/2020 at 10:16 PM, cafe latte said:

IMO (I have a G, sp10mk2 and a sl1210mk2 modded) is there is very little difference between a modded sl1200 and a G. I have damper, psu, arm rewire and feet. Difference to the G is tiny now, and maybe the arm on the G is a tiny bit better and just a bit cleaner, but if so it is small. I have started using both setting up with different carts as differences are so small not bothered.

Unmodded difference for sure, but sl1200mk2 is still really nice stock.

Chris

 

On 17/06/2020 at 11:21 PM, wikeeboy said:

Like you i have a fully modded 1200 (KAB USA M5G). You're right the modded 1200 may be very close to the G, but even though i've always loved the M5G look and feel, when you see the new G in the flesh, it's just next level fit/finish/look IMO. It's super cool, albeit at a hefty price. Mind you, the replacement price on my modded KAB 1200 (not that you can get them anymore) when i last did the calcs was somewhere in the 4-6k range so still up there in price.

 

 

On 18/06/2020 at 8:40 AM, MarkT said:

I bought my SL1210MK2 new in 2007 for $800. 

Biggest bargain in the world of hifi imo.

When the same cartridge is mounted there isn't a lot of difference between it and my SL1210GR tbh. 

Hmm.

Been looking at other forum discussions and many that have auditioned GR vs G describe them as 'very close' - but do say the G has a nicer finish.

Maybe I'd be better off just getting a KAB damper for the GR and enjoying what I have!

Could always wait for the inevitable 60th anniversary  model.

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I have developed an unhealthy obsession with the SL1200G/GR. And even the 1210MK7 and the 1500C. I have also read that the sound quality difference between the G and GR is pretty small. I wonder how much of a difference there is between the Mk7 and the GR? And even a 1200Mk2 vs a MK7. A few DJ reviews on youtube have said the MK7 suffers from vibration and resonance in a loud nightclub environment as it is much lighter than the original 1200s. But in a home environment, I wonder how they would compare. 

 

I'd love to hear a shootout between all of them. A needledrop of the same record on each turntable. Unlabelled audio files. See if we can pick them.

 

To think that a little more than 10 years ago you could pick up a MK2 brand new for under a grand... crazy. 

 

 

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1 hour ago, mikizee said:

I have developed an unhealthy obsession with the SL1200G/GR. And even the 1210MK7 and the 1500C. I have also read that the sound quality difference between the G and GR is pretty small. I wonder how much of a difference there is between the Mk7 and the GR? And even a 1200Mk2 vs a MK7. A few DJ reviews on youtube have said the MK7 suffers from vibration and resonance in a loud nightclub environment as it is much lighter than the original 1200s. But in a home environment, I wonder how they would compare. 

 

I'd love to hear a shootout between all of them. A needledrop of the same record on each turntable. Unlabelled audio files. See if we can pick them.

 

To think that a little more than 10 years ago you could pick up a MK2 brand new for under a grand... crazy. 

 

 

The G is better put together than the MK2, that said a modded mk2 ie damper and psu from Kab you are not going to gain much from a G. I have a G next to a MK2 and ATC SCM 100's and a dnm preamp and a lovely mosfet amp also a Conrad premier 4 for when I am in a valve mood.

The G is lovely, I dont have a GR, but really with all else right and the mods I did the mk2 is so close it is not funny. I originally convinced myself best carts needed to be on the G as I had just spent 6.5K. Reality is I swap carts now between then both and more and more convinved difference is nothing to worry about.... Unless you want it to be :)

Chris

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I have a KAB Modded M5G.  Its got the damper, PSU, and applied Fidelity Sapphire bearing.  I run it with a Funk Firm Achromat and a Jelco Headshell.  Looks like this may be kicking on the door of a new G, so good to know.

 

I just did a needle drop of a 1968 Seekers Best of Collection (UK Pressing) and was impressed with what came out of the grooves.

 

 

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On 17/06/2020 at 10:16 PM, cafe latte said:

IMO (I have a G, sp10mk2 and a sl1210mk2 modded) is there is very little difference between a modded sl1200 and a G. I have damper, psu, arm rewire and feet. Difference to the G is tiny now, and maybe the arm on the G is a tiny bit better and just a bit cleaner, but if so it is small. I have started using both setting up with different carts as differences are so small not bothered.

Unmodded difference for sure, but sl1200mk2 is still really nice stock.

Chris

Interested to know how the SP10 compares to the G, I was nearly going to buy the G but bought 2x SP10's instead.

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42 minutes ago, Warren Jones said:

Interested to know how the SP10 compares to the G, I was nearly going to buy the G but bought 2x SP10's instead.

They are close, to be honest there is nothing between them, differences are likely to be plinth material or arm. I prefer my G, probably for ease of use as carts are easier to swap. My SP10mk2 has a lovely solid block of silky oak for a plinth which I made, actually two really thick pieces glued together. The arm is an Eminent Technology ET2 and pump is in another room. it sounds great but the G does too and it is much less messing around.

Chris

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Put up a wall shelf for my GR yesterday and got a nice improvement in soundstage. 

Think I've decided to stick with the GR for now.

I ordered a KAB damper kit and the Isonoe feet to experiment with (as I can still feel vibration getting through to the shelf).

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28 minutes ago, MarkT said:

There are differences between higher end DD turntables but they're dwarfed in comparison to the difference a better cartridge makes.

For example when using an Ortofon OM40 a 2m black equivalent mm cartridge and a Dynavector 17D3  comparing and playing around with my Technics SL1000MK2 and SL1000MK3 which ever turntable had the Dynavector 17D3 mounted sounded significantly better.

Think instead of spending well over $6k on a G my next upgrade will be on the new Dynavector 17DX cartridge , much more bang for the buck.

.

 

DSC_0029.JPG

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If the turntable and arm is not up to the job the better cart will make little difference. I did an experiment a while back, putting a AT95e on my SP10mk2 with ET2 air arm. Just for giggles I was not expecting much. How wrong I was, no it was not my 17d3 , Dynavector or my Benz micro glider, nor did it come close to my London super gold (my best cart and not a MC either), but it showed how much arm and cart contribute to the final sound. I collect carts have have maybe 60 currently with some incoming, but the more I get the more they are flavours, yes some are better than others like the super gold, but you are not going to upgrade a bad turntable with a cart. Turntable and arm is way more important than the cart.

Chris

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20 minutes ago, cafe latte said:

but you are not going to upgrade a bad turntable with a cart. Turntable and arm is way more important than the cart.

Chris

I don't think that was ever in dispute, just that there may come a point of diminishing returns with high end TT's where at a certain 'level', a cart upgrade 'could' provide a better result than a TT upgrade. There is no substitute for a better TT and arm IMO. 

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40 minutes ago, MarkT said:

Yeah sure , and the Technics SL1210GR under discussion is definitely up to the job.

Yes it is, my point was in response to you, you said the difference a cart makes dwarfs the difference a turntable makes which I dont believe is true.

Get the turntable and arm right even a modest cart can sound stunning. Yes a better cart on a really good turntable makes a difference, but not as much as getting the decent turntable in the first place.

Chris

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1 hour ago, cafe latte said:

Yes it is, my point was in response to you, you said the difference a cart makes dwarfs the difference a turntable makes which I dont believe is true.

Get the turntable and arm right even a modest cart can sound stunning. Yes a better cart on a really good turntable makes a difference, but not as much as getting the decent turntable in the first place.

Chris

I believe it is true.

You're  entitled to disagree.

I'm not suggesting putting a Dynavector 17D3 on a cheap plastic belt drive , once you get to a certain level of quality with a Japanese DD turntable the law of diminishing returns kicks in and upgrading the cartridge has far more bang for the buck IME than spending another 5 or 6 grand on the turntable does.

 

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17 minutes ago, MarkT said:

I believe it is true.

You're  entitled to disagree.

I'm not suggesting putting a Dynavector 17D3 on a cheap plastic belt drive , once you get to a certain level of quality with a Japanese DD turntable the law of diminishing returns kicks in and upgrading the cartridge has far more bang for the buck IME than spending another 5 or 6 grand on the turntable does.

 

I think we are arguing the same point. A sl1200mk2 modified or a sp0mk2 or a gr or a G (I have all apart the GR, love my G), then yes if amp and speakers are right then cart is the only sensible way to go. I was simply saying it was not the cart that made the most difference, but when you get a decent DD, then of course a cart upgrade makes sense. I have a lot of MC carts, listening to my Gas sleeping beauty at the moment on my Commonwealth, I was going to change over to my Benz, but it is Sunday and cant be bothered. My feeling is though that the difference between say the mid range of the vessels I have, (mine has a nude vivid line and it was 234 dollars) to the MC's I have which cost 10 times as much. My point being the cart is not the biggest change or upgrade, the turntable and arm is. Put even a modest cart on a decent direct drive or belt whatever you will get good performance. The cart spend is very much diminishing returns when the rest is right.

Chris

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