Stepping into the valley of tubes (Anyone got a map?)

[nil]

Hello fellow SNAers,

 

The ever-present descriptions of sound-stage improvements, warmth and lifelike representations - associated with valve amps are drawing me in.

But before I become enchanted by the magical glow...  I'm hoping the experiences of fellow SNAers will provide guidance.

 

I have two questions...

Question One:

As a first step would you recommend -  a valve pre-amp (upstream from a SS amp), or rather get an integrated valve amp?

 

Question two:

Is question one the right question?

 

Any experiences or advice would be greatly appreciated.

 

To give greater context, here are some system details .

MacBook Pro (Tidal and Spotify) > Oppo HA1 > Parasound  A23 > JBL 4600.

All cables and interconnects are decent quality. The room is 4x6m with 3m ceiling.

 

My budget would go to $2.5K.

My research points me toward a pre-loved Prima Luna,  Consonance, or similar.

 

Thanks for reading.

All feedback and suggestions appreciated.

 

 

 

[aussievintage]

7 minutes ago, nil said:

Question One:

As a first step would you recommend -  a valve pre-amp (upstream from a SS amp), or rather get an integrated valve amp?

 

Cheapest baby step is usually a valve preamp, but where would you fit it into your current system?  You don't need any more gain as far as I can see, and you already have level control.

 

Therefore, maybe a stereo valve power amp, or monoblocks, instead of an integrated, because again, you don't seem to need the preamp (correct me if I am wrong on that  ) 

 

 

 

[nil]

Thanks Aussievintage.

 

Yes you're correct - I don't actually need a pre-amp, but in the same vein, nor do I need a valve amplifier.

(Perhaps it's a  a question of which one would get the most valvi-ness from?)

 

The idea that an amplifier just amplifies what it is fed, makes a valve pre-amp seem a sensible step.

 

So in the chain...

If I went for a valve pre-amp it would take-over the Oppo HA1 on pre-amp duties (The Oppo would be used simply as a DAC)

 

If I go for valve amplification (Stereo or two monos) they would take over the current SS amplifier, and I'd retain the existing pre-amp.

 

The baby-step of a valve pre-amp first also allows for exploration of other well regarded DACs.

 

Cheers

 

 

 

 

 

Edited May 28, 2020 by nil
grammar

[Guest]

Those little JBLs can really soak up some power, though small amps can work as well depending on your preferences. In my experience very little SS beats tubes at the business end of amplification for all those tubey reasons.

 

This might tickle your fancy-

 

 

[aussievintage]

52 minutes ago, nil said:

The baby-step of a valve pre-amp first also allows for exploration of other well regarded DACs.

 

True.     btw.  I just run a cheap DAC, a Topping D10, into a full valve system, and I love the sound.

[doogie44]

May I suggest that you consider borrowing a valve component to insert into your system? Or arranging with some fellow valve-lovers and component owners in Perth to do this in your home? There is no substitute for hearing what might be different--in a familiar system.

 

Your system is married together pretty well. It might even be that your best position for such a valve component is in the source!?

[nil]

Grizzly, thank you.     Yep saw that LM in my research here on SNA and it's been in the consideration set.

 Doogie44: Good call, very sensible. ... Will think about the best way to organize that. Cheers.

[andrewyuri]

I went through a similar decision process some months ago.  At the time I was using a very good DAC with a volume control driving active speakers.  Whilst there was nothing really wrong with the system, it just didn't have that magic - the stuff that moves you to tears!

 

The PrimaLuna Dialogue Premium preamp was something that I had previous experience with and so took the plunge and bought another one second hand.  I haven't looked back since.  Tonally, the sound is now beautiful, killer imaging and detail so good you want to bottle it. Highly recommended.

[naggots]

Weston Acoustics KT120 fills my needs. I’ve had a Mac mini >Geiseler Dac > Kt120 setup since 2012. It still floats my boat. Might be worth a look if you can find one second hand. The wait for a new one may be a while though

Edited May 28, 2020 by naggots

[nil]

19 hours ago, naggots said:

Weston Acoustics KT120 fills my needs. I’ve had a Mac mini >Geiseler Dac > Kt120 setup since 2012. It still floats my boat. Might be worth a look if you can find one second hand. The wait for a new one may be a while though

Conceptually that's the kind of minimal set-up I expect should work brilliantly - so it's nice to hear that it does.

 

 

20 hours ago, andrewyuri said:

I went through a similar decision process some months ago.  At the time I was using a very good DAC with a volume control driving active speakers.  Whilst there was nothing really wrong with the system, it just didn't have that magic - the stuff that moves you to tears!

 

The PrimaLuna Dialogue Premium preamp was something that I had previous experience with and so took the plunge and bought another one second hand.  I haven't looked back since.  Tonally, the sound is now beautiful, killer imaging and detail so good you want to bottle it. Highly recommended.

Yep it's 's sounding like I better get active and get some tubey-goodness into the sound.

 

#Andrewyuri, and #Naggots

thank you both. Much appreciated.

 

Nil

[Colin Rutter]

I would go power amp first. 

It will have a greater influence on the sound "sense" than a pre-amp.

If you like the sound then try a tube pre-amp. next. 

If the bug bites try a Phono tube pre on top of that (don't forget provision for MC)  then you are fully registered "tube nut".

[pulinap]

Look for a DHT preamp If you can afford it. Also look into AM RT-2  (s/h)...you'll be pleasantly surprised.

[Cammyboy0_0]

Hi,

as someone who bought a pair of valve monoblocs to try to see if I would like them, I agonised over the same question for years as you, until I made the leap.

My recommendation is give this a try - there has been some great advice and personal experience above  - I owned a Musical Fidelity KW (which the valve monoblocs replaced - I owned them side by side and kept what I preferred) and recently tried a PS Audio BHK Signature 250 stereo power amplifier (a kind local dealer lent me one to try) and my Cymer M160's (now with KT120's) have a better sense of a real musical event happening (it wasn't all one way).

Against all normal thinking I find that they have a greater sense of real instruments (great midrange and sweet clear treble, which is expected from valves) with bass that sounds like real bass instruments (tight, clean , textured, natural - which is not - according to common thinking).

To me, valve amplifiers don't sound like hi fi, they sound like real instruments and singers.

 

I played bass in bands (hobby / semi professional) for 20 years both live and in studios - to me, and based on what I have heard to date; valves get closer to real music and instruments.

 

Good luck with your search.

 

cheers

Cameron

 

[nil]

1 hour ago, Cammyboy0_0 said:

To me, valve amplifiers don't sound like hi fi, they sound like real instruments and singers.

#Cammyboy0-0, thanks for your thoughtful reply,  nicely written too, much appreciated. I suspect you've tipped me into action.

 

2 hours ago, pulinap said:

Look for a DHT preamp If you can afford it. Also look into AM RT-2  (s/h)...you'll be pleasantly surprised.

#Puylinap - I just had a quick scope about the interwebs for those items  mentioned, it looks like id have to sell my whole stereo to afford one. But hey it doesn't hurt to be a well informed gear-hunter :  you never know your luck.

 

2 hours ago, Colin Rutter said:

then you are fully registered "tube nut"

#Mr Rutter,  thank you too. It seems there is little dissent among card carrying members of the fraternity. Once you're in you're in, as Cammyboy's story attests even when your trying out some of PS Audio's finest.

 

Based on the kindly donated opinions in the whole string above, It seems what the pathway is, is less important than just get in and experience valves somehow.

My conclusion is: the first  bit of gear that looks suitable / affordable will be the thing I try. 

 

Thanks again to all contributors much appreciated.

Peaceful, delicious, valvey listening to y'all.

 

Nil

[Jhsg]

Hello mate, 

 

I've recently bought a primaluna prologue preamp. I am running a Bluesound Node 2i into it and powering my speakers with a ROTEL 1582 amp. 

 

The sound is really great. Much more immersive than non-tube options I've tried. It also has HT bypass which is handy. 

 

Cheers

 

JH 

 

[Guest]

I have a Supratek Cortese pre that you can borrow for the weekend if you would like.

 

Give you a taste of tubes so to speak. 

[Guest deanB]

Entering the world of valve amplification isn't stepping into a valley, it's about getting out of a rut, climbing to higher ground and enjoying a fresh perspective. 

[Jhsg]

5 minutes ago, deanB said:

Entering the world of valve amplification isn't stepping into a valley, it's about getting out of a rut, climbing to higher ground and enjoying a fresh perspective. 

Very true - couldn’t agree more!!

[pulinap]

14 hours ago, nil said:

#Cammyboy0-0, thanks for your thoughtful reply,  nicely written too, much appreciated. I suspect you've tipped me into action.

 

#Puylinap - I just had a quick scope about the interwebs for those items  mentioned, it looks like id have to sell my whole stereo to afford one. But hey it doesn't hurt to be a well informed gear-hunter :  you never know your luck.

 

#Mr Rutter,  thank you too. It seems there is little dissent among card carrying members of the fraternity. Once you're in you're in, as Cammyboy's story attests even when your trying out some of PS Audio's finest.

 

Based on the kindly donated opinions in the whole string above, It seems what the pathway is, is less important than just get in and experience valves somehow.

My conclusion is: the first  bit of gear that looks suitable / affordable will be the thing I try. 

 

Thanks again to all contributors much appreciated.

Peaceful, delicious, valvey listening to y'all.

 

Nil

Not necessarily.....here are couple of DHT options: (they will trump most of other pre amps in their price range)

 

 

Ming Da - MC2a3

[nil]

9 hours ago, John Doe said:

I have a Supratek Cortese pre that you can borrow for the weekend if you would like.

 

Give you a taste of tubes so to speak. 

Zoweee, very generous of you Mr JohnDoe. PM coming your way.

[Martykt]

On 28/05/2020 at 12:29 PM, nil said:

Question One:

As a first step would you recommend -  a valve pre-amp (upstream from a SS amp), or rather get an integrated valve amp?

 

To answer your question @nil, while a valve preamp SS combo may give some tube goodness it will still sound like a SS amp.

A full tube setup or tube integrated will give full effect of tubes.

 

The best way is to try and see what works for you and your speakers.

Along with @John Doe's generous offer I would also recommend contacting Cam from Line Magnetic to see if you can organise to have a listen to a tube amp like the one @Grizzly suggested.

I have been dealing with Cam on a different sale and have found him great to deal with.

[nil]

13 hours ago, Martykt said:

To answer your question @nil, while a valve preamp SS combo may give some tube goodness it will still sound like a SS amp.

A full tube setup or tube integrated will give full effect of tubes.

@Martykt, thank you. I will act on your advice, and try to organise a little listening session with both.  (I'm delighted that may even be possible - isn't the SNA community great!)

The Suprateks seem to foster loyalty from their owners - so I am keen to hear that one - acknowledging your point that a pre-amp alone is not the whole shebang..

Thanks again for your thoughts - and answering the question too : )

[THOMO]

I found an EL34 push pull valve amp sounded really good with my JBL Studio 590s If impedance dips too low in the bass region you might still be better off with a SS amp despite the good sensitivity.

It would be tempting to try one of the Chinese made JLH 1969 class A amps like those sold by Nobsound or Weiliang for around $300.They also sound good driven by a Supratek preamp.There are higher resolution and far more powerful sounding amps but they just sound really nice  and are very musically engaging.

[Pops110]

@nil where about sin Perth are you?
You would be welcome to bring the JBL’s over and hook them up in my system for a listen if you like. Audio Note valve pre and MF power amp, or I may be able to bring them around to your place.

Let me know, send me a pm.

[Martykt]

3 hours ago, nil said:

 

The Suprateks seem to foster loyalty from their owners - so I am keen to hear that one - acknowledging your point that a pre-amp alone is not the whole shebang..

Yes the Supratek owners I know are very happy with their ownership.

They have copped some flack in the past as the point to point wiring in the Suprateks can look a bit messy however I haven't heard of them actually having any reliability issues due to this so don't think it is anything to worry about.

Supratek is over there in WA as well (Margaret River) so might be worth contacting as well to see what they can offer.

Supratek makes amplifiers as well preamps though they they may be over your budget.