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sir sanders zingmore

Calling on DSpeaker experts :)

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In my other thread about my DSpeaker anti-mode I mentioned that it is a little noisy into my high sensitivity horns.

Before I give up on it and put it back in the classifieds I was after some advice on some possible ways of using it.

 

The reason I bought the DSpeaker unit was to try a few things out but the manual doesn't really give me info I need. So I'm hoping there are some experts here who can advise.

 

My current setup is Turntable/DAC >> Preamp >> Power Amp >> speakers

 

My speakers are Avantgarde Uno G2 speakers. These have powered bass units built in which can be thought of as subwoofers (at least that's what I'm thinking about with the DSpeaker):

  • They have their own volume control and crossover adjustments.
  • They can be run with speaker level input (that's how I run them now)
  • They can also have a line level input (that's what I want to try)

 

So the alternatives I'm thinking with the Speaker are the following

 

  1. Treat the speakers as "normal' full-range speakers

In this case I would run the 2.0 calibration  (Turntable/DAC >> Preamp >>DSpeaker>> Power Amp >> speakers

 

2. Treat the system as a 2.2 system

In this case I would run line level to the bass units. Something like this: 

(Turntable/DAC >> Preamp >>DSpeaker>> Power Amp >> speakers and,

                                                     DSpeaker line level out>> bass units  )

 

This is trickier but also more interesting. The DSpeaker website mentions this config and says:

Using Anti-Mode 2.0 Dual Core to correct a 2.1 or 2.2 system

You can use the Measurement tool within Anti-Mode 2.0DC to adjust the optimal level, cross-over and phase of the subwoofer(s). Note: in this setup the cross-over of the subwoofer must be used instead of ones in Anti-Mode 2.0 Dual Core.

 

So my questions are: how do I run this calibration? What settings do i have on the bass units? And how do I use the measurement tool to adjust level and crossover the bass unit?

 

 

 

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 @Ittaku ... you used a Dspeaker at one stage, didn't you?

 

Andy

 

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Posted (edited)

Yes I still use a dspeaker, but their X4, though I owned the antimode before that. I had to go trawling your other thread to see what you meant by "noisy". From memory the antimode has an output setting for normal and max output which adjusts the voltage out (but I may be remembering wrong). Check which one it's currently set to. In addition there's "input sensitivity" and "volume trim" option for all inputs, try adjusting that down.

 

As an aside, if you ignore the turntable for a moment, since you're going digital in the end, you could play the digital out (if you have one) directly into the antimode and use that as a preamp, but that then makes your DAC and existing preamp defunct - note that chaining DACs here doesn't really make the sound better.

Edited by Ittaku

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43 minutes ago, Ittaku said:

Yes I still use a dspeaker, but their X4, though I owned the antimode before that. I had to go trawling your other thread to see what you meant by "noisy". From memory the antimode has an output setting for normal and max output which adjusts the voltage out (but I may be remembering wrong). Check which one it's currently set to. In addition there's "input sensitivity" and "volume trim" option for all inputs, try adjusting that down.

 

As an aside, if you ignore the turntable for a moment, since you're going digital in the end, you could play the digital out (if you have one) directly into the antimode and use that as a preamp, but that then makes your DAC and existing preamp defunct - note that chaining DACs here doesn't really make the sound better.

Thanks, I'll look for the sensitivity settings.

 

Regarding your second point, to some extent the reason I wanted to try the antimode was specifically so that I could also apply DSP to my turntable. I can already apply DSP to my digital source via Roon

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Any other DSpeaker gurus out there?

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5 hours ago, sir sanders zingmore said:

Any other DSpeaker gurus out there?

I don't think you necessarily need gurus to help you out, especially if you ask more specific questions.

 

With option two I'm worried that it doesn't suit your setup because you'd be changing the way your full range speakers operate. I'm a bit confused with your speakers. Is there a crossover\filter before the woofer connections?

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Posted (edited)

You can't have separate outputs with the dual core. It's EITHER main speaker DSP, OR subwoofer DSP, and the outputs from both digital and analogue out are the same. Does that answer your question? I was trying to help with your other problem first...

Edited by Ittaku

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4 minutes ago, Ittaku said:

You can't have separate outputs with the dual core. It's EITHER main speaker DSP, OR subwoofer DSP, and the outputs from both digital and analogue out are the same. Does that answer your question? I was trying to help with your other problem first...

This is what I'm referring to (it seems to have outputs from the antimode going to both the speakers and the subs simultaneously)

 

52798841_ScreenShot2020-05-23at3_50_27pm.png.50dad525446f901bf1257f8d163adb06.png

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Posted (edited)
14 minutes ago, Satanica said:

I don't think you necessarily need gurus to help you out, especially if you ask more specific questions.

 

With option two I'm worried that it doesn't suit your setup because you'd be changing the way your full range speakers operate. I'm a bit confused with your speakers. Is there a crossover\filter before the woofer connections?

My specific question is that I don't understand DSpeakers instructions for option two and I'm hoping someone can explain how to do it.

Their instructions state

 

You can use the Measurement tool within Anti-Mode 2.0DC to adjust the optimal level, cross-over and phase of the subwoofer(s). Note: in this setup the cross-over of the subwoofer must be used instead of ones in Anti-Mode 2.0 Dual Core.

 

The first sentence seems to contradict the second

I read the first sentences as stating that the Anti-mode can find the best volume, crossover point and phase for subs.

I read the second sentence as stating that you can't use the Anti-mode as a crossover. This is confusing (to me at least)

 

 

Regarding your questions below: The woofer can be thought of as a completely separate unit attached to each speaker. It has its own amp and can take line-level or speaker level inputs.

Just like a regular sub, it has its own volume control and crossover adjustment (but no phase adjustment is possible)

14 minutes ago, Satanica said:

I'm a bit confused with your speakers. Is there a crossover\filter before the woofer connections?

Edited by sir sanders zingmore

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Posted (edited)

Okay what it means is that the output to the subwoofer is unmodified from the input - the only thing it can adjust is the phase of the subwoofer output, but the main speakers are affected by the DSP as having a high pass output.

Edited by Ittaku

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1 minute ago, sir sanders zingmore said:

My specific question is that I don't understand Speakers instructions for option two and I'm hoping someone can explain how to do it.

Their instructions state

 

You can use the Measurement tool within Anti-Mode 2.0DC to adjust the optimal level, cross-over and phase of the subwoofer(s). Note: in this setup the cross-over of the subwoofer must be used instead of ones in Anti-Mode 2.0 Dual Core.

 

The first sentence seems to contradict the second

I read the first sentences as stating that the Anti-mode can find the best volume, crossover point and phase for subs.

I read the second sentence as stating that you can't use the Anti-mode as a crossover. This is confusing (to me at least)

The first sentence says "You can use ... to adjust" not "can find" so I'm not convinced it will apply settings automatically for you. Perhaps this is where your gurus have the answer.

 

Yes I agree that the second sentence seems to contradict itself and is confusing. You would think that it should read something like "Note: in this setup the cross-over of the subwoofer should optimally be switched off because its is taken care of by the ones in Anti-Mode 2.0 Dual Core.".

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3 minutes ago, Ittaku said:

Okay what it means is that the output to the subwoofer is unmodified from the input - the only thing it can adjust is the phase of the subwoofer output, but the main speakers are affected by the DSP as having a high pass output.

That's helpful (but does seem to contradict what @Satanicais saying - or maybe not. Quite possibly I'm just thick)

 

If you are correct then what do I actually have to do if I want to "use the Measurement tool within Anti-Mode 2.0DC to adjust the optimal level, cross-over and phase of the subwoofer(s)" 

 

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6 hours ago, sir sanders zingmore said:

Any other DSpeaker gurus out there?

 

Torben ( @tfj100?) has a Dspeaker (used to, anyway).

 

Andy

 

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21 minutes ago, sir sanders zingmore said:

This is what I'm referring to (it seems to have outputs from the antimode going to both the speakers and the subs simultaneously)

 

52798841_ScreenShot2020-05-23at3_50_27pm.png.50dad525446f901bf1257f8d163adb06.png

This functionality did not exist when I owned one by the way. I'm assuming when you choose calibration from the device, it will ask you what your system layout is. You choose 2.1 or 2.2 and uuhhh follow the prompts? I'm assuming it will tell you what to set your subwoofer crossover to, but now I'm guessing.

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To me, you don't really have a system that qualifies for option 2.

You don't have two full range speakers and one or two subwoofers.

You have a pair of speakers that just happen to have their own powered woofers.

You would need to add one of two subwoofers to your system for it to match up with the number 2 setup idea in mind.

I think you should stick with option 1 although you said you're getting noise issues which is why you're investigating option 2 presumably.

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This is the back of your speakers? Is that a three way switch for the woofers\subs with options 40Hz, 30Hz and 20Hz?

 

Avantgarde Acoustic Uno G2 Speakers

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Isn't that a switch XLR\SPKR that means one or the other?

If so that seems to me that option 2 simply is not an option.

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Posted (edited)
35 minutes ago, Satanica said:

Isn't that a switch XLR\SPKR that means one or the other?

If so that seems to me that option 2 simply is not an option.

no, it means precisely the opposite - that option 2 is an option

 

When the switch is on SPKR, you plug the speaker cable from the amp into SPKR Inputs (at the top of your photo). You also connect a set of jumper cables (seen in your photo) to the speaker inputs on the horns (not shown in your photo). So it's speaker level input into both the horns and powered woofer

 

When the switch is on XLR, you remove the jumper cable and plug XLR into the powered woofer and speaker cables directly into the horns. You now have line-level inputs into the powered woofers (and speaker level inputs into the horns)

This is how I envisage option 2 working 

Edited by sir sanders zingmore

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10 minutes ago, sir sanders zingmore said:

no, it means precisely the opposite - that option 2 is an option

 

When the switch is on SPKR, you plug the speaker cable from the amp into SPKR Inputs (at the top of your photo). You also connect a set of jumper cables (seen in your photo) to the speaker inputs on the horns (not shown in your photo). So it's speaker level input into both the horns and powered woofer

 

When the switch is on XLR, you remove the jumper cable and plug XLR into the powered woofer and speaker cables directly into the horns. You now have line-level inputs into the powered woofers (and speaker level inputs into the horns)

This is how I envisage option 2 working 

OK, understood. So what advantage do you think option 2 might have over 1?

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31 minutes ago, Satanica said:

OK, understood. So what advantage do you think option 2 might have over 1?

Hmmm good question :)

I think mainly I just want to try it out of curiosity.

 

But also, I have heard my speakers running with line level inputs into the powered woofers (that's how Avantgarde actually run them "natively" with their amp) and it sounded really good.

 

And also, I've never really measured the system to ensure that I've set up the woofers correctly. I know I could do this with something like REW, but if DSpeaker does it for me than I'm happy.

 

And finally, I also want to test whether it reduces the noise (but I suspect it won't)

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17 hours ago, sir sanders zingmore said:

But also, I have heard my speakers running with line level inputs into the powered woofers (that's how Avantgarde actually run them "natively" with their amp) and it sounded really good.

Seemingly, you'd prevent a conversion from speaker level to line level.

 

17 hours ago, sir sanders zingmore said:

And also, I've never really measured the system to ensure that I've set up the woofers correctly. I know I could do this with something like REW, but if DSpeaker does it for me than I'm happy.

I don't understand why you have to do anything; don't Avantgarde have settings out of the box?

 

17 hours ago, sir sanders zingmore said:

And finally, I also want to test whether it reduces the noise (but I suspect it won't)

Yes, I can't see how it help.

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50 minutes ago, Satanica said:

I don't understand why you have to do anything; don't Avantgarde have settings out of the box?

I guess they leave it to the individual to “tune” for themselves. If they felt there was a “best” setting then why would they even allow the option of adjusting volume and crossover point?

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Posted (edited)
10 minutes ago, sir sanders zingmore said:

I guess they leave it to the individual to “tune” for themselves. If they felt there was a “best” setting then why would they even allow the option of adjusting volume and crossover point?

Just my opinion ... but oh no no no.

The best setting or at least the baseline which should have been provided is the one that produces the flattest frequency response albeit in an anachoic environment and anything less is slack and sloppy.

I presume there's a manual, if so what does it say?

Correct me if I'm wrong but these are woofers (something like 200-300Hz and down?) and not sub-woofers per say which makes them even more important to the overall performance of the system.

Edited by Satanica

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This is what is in the manual 

 

40E258D5-5710-43AB-9A65-4519F3A779FD.jpeg.936eaa23453c61abaaf8efaaea01a99b.jpeg

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1 hour ago, sir sanders zingmore said:

This is what is in the manual

OK, there is at least something and I would have been shocked if there was not at least some recommended settings. The whole "adjusted to the specific requirements and operating environment" is so vague that it is to be ignored IMO. 

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