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kelossus

SUT or buy a new Phono?

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I think SUT vs head amp is very much a case of personal preference as well as flexibility. 

 

Every SUT has its own sound signature and that can either complement or detract from a given cart or phono stage.  Then there are low output moving iron carts which simply don't work with them. A head amp is absolutely necessary to use into an MM only phono stage.  :)

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I have it in my head that I want a tube phono stage so it's likely to happen as I obsess over it further.

 

Hoping to get some suggestions? I have a few "must have" options and a couple preferred.

 

Budget - 2nd hand around 3k.

 

Rumble filter - Has to have one, it's a must for me. I don't care what anyone says about cart/arm matching I need one. I have the AnalogMagik software suite and my TT has a resonance factor of 9.8hz. Well within the guidelines but I still get woofer pumping when I crank the system. It's not the sort of rumble you can hear but I hate seeing the cones move like that. Also it's chewing up a lot of power from Krell power amp.

 

Low noise, obviously.

 

Mono switch - Not a must have but it would be nice. I don't know why but I would like the option to play mono records even though I don't own any.

 

Given the recently acquired SUTs I could get away with a MM only but based on my research I can't find any tube units with a rumble filter.

 

I understand I could use an external filter like the KAB RF-1 but that would make the phono chain even larger as I am already using external SUT's. It would annoy me having another device and another set of cables hence one built in to the phono would be good.

 

A few models that have sparked my interest are Rogue Audio Ares and the Modwright PH9.0.

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Borrow the sut device that you are eyeing and place it at the space you intend to put it in upon purchase. Dun plug it in the power grid. Dun change your cable wiring. Just place the sut physically there and listen to your system. Does it affect the soundstaging size in anyway when the chunky piece of ferrous object is inserted into the proximity of the existing audio equipment?

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, kelossus said:

Rumble filter - Has to have one, it's a must for me. I don't care what anyone says about cart/arm matching I need one. I have the AnalogMagik software suite and my TT has a resonance factor of 9.8hz. Well within the guidelines but I still get woofer pumping when I crank the system. It's not the sort of rumble you can hear but I hate seeing the cones move like that. Also it's chewing up a lot of power from Krell power amp.

There is a sunilda valve phono at audio connection (second hand) which has this feature. No mono, unfortunately.

Edited by Juzbear

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3 hours ago, kelossus said:

I understand I could use an external filter like the KAB RF-1 but that would make the phono chain even larger as I am already using external SUT's. It would annoy me having another device and another set of cables hence one built in to the phono would be good.

 

Tried the KAB RF-1 back in the early days of my system.  It actually eats into audible bass frequencies so if your system digs deep I can't recommend it. I prefer to go without these days.  Besides a good tube stage tends to only cover a little more than the audible range anyway.

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Pro-Ject Tube Box DS2 has a rumble filter, tubes, flexible loading and not much money, might be worth a try, low risk  

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3 hours ago, kelossus said:

but I still get woofer pumping when I crank the system. It's not the sort of rumble you can hear but I hate seeing the cones move like that. Also it's chewing up a lot of power from Krell power amp.

 

 

Yes, it would be.  :(

 

3 hours ago, kelossus said:

Rumble filter - Has to have one, it's a must for me. I don't care what anyone says about cart/arm matching I need one. I have the AnalogMagik software suite and my TT has a resonance factor of 9.8hz. Well within the guidelines but I still get woofer pumping when I crank the system. It's not the sort of rumble you can hear but I hate seeing the cones move like that. Also it's chewing up a lot of power from Krell power amp.

 

 

Strange, Chris - Felix also reports that he has woofer pumping.  As you say ... 9.8Hz resonance is smack in the right area ... so what is causing it?

 

My 15" subs roll on at 80Hz - so if I had a rumble problem ... it should be very evident.  Yet my sub drivers don't pump.

 

So I wonder what it is in your and @catman's system that causes rumble?

 

DD or idler TT, maybe?  Or, at least, a solid plinth, rather than sprung (a la LP12)?

 

Or, as you said "I still get woofer pumping when I crank the system " - does it go away when you turn down the volume?  (If so - that would surely be acoustic feedback.)

 

It has me puzzled!  :(

 

Andy

 

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Guest rondine

Rumble filter sounds like ****, you need to fix the problem.

 

ron

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4 minutes ago, andyr said:

 

Yes, it would be.  :(

 

 

Strange, Chris - Felix also reports that he has woofer pumping.  As you say ... 9.8Hz resonance is smack in the right area ... so what is causing it?

 

My 15" subs roll on at 80Hz - so if I had a rumble problem ... it should be very evident.  Yet my sub drivers don't pump.

 

So I wonder what it is in your and @catman's system that causes rumble?

 

DD or idler TT, maybe?  Or, at least, a solid plinth, rather than sprung (a la LP12)?

 

Or, as you said "I still get woofer pumping when I crank the system " - does it go away when you turn down the volume?  (If so - that would surely be acoustic feedback.)

 

It has me puzzled!  :(

 

Andy

 

It very well could be the TT itself. I have had a LP12 in the past and a Well Tempered and I don't remember the cones ever moving like this. My previous speakers were biamped with a Deqx so I added a HPF at 20hz to mimic a rumble filter. It worked a treat and the woofer movement was forgotten.

 

I am not as opposed to rumble filters if you can get one that is reasonably transparent. My Sovereign's go pretty deep for a standalone speaker without a subwoofer. That really deep bass rattles my light fittings and windows and I would rather the current be reserved for transients.

 

Reading various threads on the net show no definite solution. Some try everything under the sun and have to resort to a rumble filter. I run a VPI Prime on a Solidtech rack which is mass loaded with lead shot. The turntable sits on the Solid Tech Turntable shelf under their "Feet of Silence" spring things. The floor is concrete so I don't understand what the deal is. Every cart from the Lyra Delos, Dynavector XX2, Zyx Airy 3 to the current Windfeld TI have all had the same issue. So it can't be the cart/arm.

 

I measured the WOW and Flutter with the analogmagik and my TT has 0.07%, right on what is specified by VPI.

 

 

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Posted (edited)

For all I know my system may suffer from it too except I never play loud enough to find out.  My wife yells at me if it's at talking volume.

 

I have found that application of Dynamat Extreme under the plinth + the platter itself, an SDS IsoPlatMat + SDS IsoPuck gets rid of issues like rumble or bearing noise and improves turntable dynamics.

 

Just using the Dynamat kills impact and dynamics but the SDS products restore it while improving performance beyond what was there.

 

I've tried maglev feet to but have never been conviced they made much of a difference.

 

It occurs to me that it may not have been the Hashimoto SUT my phono stage didn't like though rather the silver tonearm interconnects..... This is the listing for my Abbas phono preamp of you were to consider one:

 

Abbas Audio EL84 Tube RIAA Preamp

 

Edited by MattyW

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Sorry, Chris but your answers are not enlightening me.  :(  So I'm still puzzled as to what is causing your woofer pumping.

 

2 hours ago, kelossus said:

I measured the WOW and Flutter with the analogmagik and my TT has 0.07%, right on what is specified by VPI.

 

Irrelevant to your problem, I suggest.

 

2 hours ago, kelossus said:

I am not as opposed to rumble filters if you can get one that is reasonably transparent. My Sovereign's go pretty deep for a standalone speaker without a subwoofer. That really deep bass rattles my light fittings and windows and I would rather the current be reserved for transients.

 

But does the woofer pumping reduce when you turn down the volume?

 

2 hours ago, kelossus said:

I run a VPI Prime on a Solidtech rack which is mass loaded with lead shot. The turntable sits on the Solid Tech Turntable shelf under their "Feet of Silence" spring things. The floor is concrete so I don't understand what the deal is. Every cart from the Lyra Delos, Dynavector XX2, Zyx Airy 3 to the current Windfeld TI have all had the same issue. So it can't be the cart/arm.

 

What you have there suggests that you are certainly not getting a noise which is coming up from the floor into your TT.  :thumb:

 

But you could be getting air-borne vibrations impacting the TT plinth?  (Hence my Qu as to whether turning down the volume ... reduces the woofer pumping.)

 

Or your bearing has a problem.

 

You could experiment with a passive 'rumble filter' (ie. a HP filter) by putting a cap in series with the RCA inputs to your power amp.  This would give you only a 6dB slope ... but by experimenting with the value of the cap, you could see whether it reduced woofer pumping without impacting the music.

 

IIRC, the equation for the roll-off point is given (near enough!) by the equation:  @frequ = 160,000 / (uF * R)

 

... where R is the input impedance (Zin) of your amplifier.

 

So if the Zin of your amplifier is, say, 40K, the equation becomes: @frequ = 4 / uF.  So if you use a 1uF cap ... the roll-off point (-3dB point) is 4Hz.  0.47uF would give you an 8Hz roll-off point ... etc.

 

Andy

 

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Posted (edited)
39 minutes ago, andyr said:

But does the woofer pumping reduce when you turn down the volume?

Just checked then. When turned up to a moderate volume from the listening position the cones start boogieing. Just to mention the cone movement is not gradual as I crank the volume, it's not present at all until I get to about 1/3 on the volume dial, then all of a sudden it starts and worsens. I just played a long instrumental intro where there is virtually no bass, just lead acoustic and electric guitar. When turned up the cones started pumping and I am certain when standing right next to the speakers I could hear it. A low level wobble if that makes sense.

 

Is there some way to rule out the bearing? The turntable is still under warranty and since VPI's warranty is transferable I should be covered. This is honestly driving me crazy like a ground loop would.

Edited by kelossus

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1 hour ago, kelossus said:

Just checked then. When turned up to a moderate volume from the listening position the cones start boogieing. Just to mention the cone movement is not gradual as I crank the volume, it's not present at all until I get to about 1/3 on the volume dial, then all of a sudden it starts and worsens. I just played a long instrumental intro where there is virtually no bass, just lead acoustic and electric guitar. When turned up the cones started pumping and I am certain when standing right next to the speakers I could hear it. A low level wobble if that makes sense.

 

That is indeed perplexing, Chris ... as there doesn't seem to be much obvious logic to it.  :(

 

If I can just interpret what you're saying - perhaps you can tell me if I have understood correctly.

 

This 'long instrumental intro ' had no bass - yet once you got to 1/3 of the volume dial ... the woofer pumping started?

 

And the higher up you turned the volume dial ... the worse the woofer pumping got?

 

If so ... that suggests air-borne vibration, to me.  But how you solve this ... is a matter of experimentation.

 

How near is your TT to one of your spkrs?

 

1 hour ago, kelossus said:

Is there some way to rule out the bearing? The turntable is still under warranty and since VPI's warranty is transferable I should be covered. This is honestly driving me crazy like a ground loop would.

 

I can imagine it would.

 

The only thing I can think of is ... can you borrow a TT from a local SNA member and put it where your current VPI Prime is - and see if you still get woofer pumping?

 

If you do ... then it would seem that TT position is the issue.

If you don't ... then it would seem your VPI Prime is the problem ... but whether it's a bad bearing - or the way the TT itself, is constructed - is a matter of conjecture.  :(

 

Andy

 

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Hmmmm, do you have a headphone amp? I've found that rumble and bearing noise is actually audible when present with quality headphones. It makes them valuable for troubleshooting.

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13 hours ago, MattyW said:

Hmmmm, do you have a headphone amp? I've found that rumble and bearing noise is actually audible when present with quality headphones. It makes them valuable for troubleshooting.

That's a great idea. I do have a headphone amp but no headphones. I'll get a pair though.

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Posted (edited)

@andyr

 

Here is a link of the woofer movement at about half volume on my Krell. I tend to listen a little louder then this when in my listening position some 4 meters away. Before the drums enter you can see the cones pumping and to be honest this is somewhat mild. Other records are far worse. It may be a little hard to gauge in the video but if you look closely you can see the woofers dancing about.

 

Also thank you Andy and everyone for your continued contribution to this thread. This why SNA is such a great resource with many being generous with their knowledge.

 

https://streamable.com/5np4rv

Edited by kelossus

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13 hours ago, MattyW said:

Hmmmm, do you have a headphone amp? I've found that rumble and bearing noise is actually audible when present with quality headphones. It makes them valuable for troubleshooting.

 

8 minutes ago, kelossus said:

That's a great idea. I do have a headphone amp but no headphones. I'll get a pair though.

 

As well as making rumble/bearing noise more audible ... surely it also means that the speakers are not making a sound - thus enabling you to see whether air-borne vibration is the cause of your problem?

 

5 minutes ago, kelossus said:

@andyr

 

Here is a link of the woofer movement at about half volume on my Krell. I tend to listen a little louder then this when in my listening position some 4 meters away. Before the drums enter you can see the cones pumping and to be honest this is somewhat mild. Other records are far worse.

 

Also thank you Andy and everyone for your continued contribution to this thread. This why SNA is such a great resource with many being generous with their knowledge.

 

https://streamable.com/5np4rv

 

Yes, indeed - clearly visible.  :(

 

Andy

 

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Posted (edited)

Incorrect post.... removed

Edited by MattyW

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3 hours ago, kelossus said:

That's a great idea. I do have a headphone amp but no headphones. I'll get a pair though.

Headphones at higher volume can be useful to identify if a noise is audible and if audible identify what it is. Bearing noise for example can be clearly identified. Audio Technica headphones are quite critical and great for this use..... Wouldn't want to actually listen to music with them though.  ;)

 

You could probably borrow my Monoprice Monolith M1060C headphones if that would help? Saves purchasing something. I no longer have a dedicated headphone amp now though so you'll need to use your own. I sold my Darkvoice 336SE and my JLH 1969 based headphone amp is on loan to another mate.

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@kelossus I has the same issue a number of years ago. We just couldn't figure out what was causing it. I have no idea why but I changed phono stages and it was gone.

 

See if you can borrow a couple of phono stages and see for yourself.

 

 

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Posted (edited)
11 minutes ago, Gryffles said:

@kelossus I has the same issue a number of years ago. We just couldn't figure out what was causing it. I have no idea why but I changed phono stages and it was gone.

 

See if you can borrow a couple of phono stages and see for yourself.

 

 

Interesting... Sounds worthwhile trying. I've a modded Realistic 42-2101 here (Jupiter copper foil output caps) you could try as well so maybe grab that + the headphones and kill 2 avenues of investigation with 1 stone. Heck, you could even borrow one of my spare turntables if you wanted to rule that out as well. I've enough spares here to loan a full analog sound chain and thats not counting the stuff that's on long term loan to mates :)

Edited by MattyW

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28 minutes ago, Gryffles said:

 

@kelossus I had the same issue a number of years ago. We just couldn't figure out what was causing it. I have no idea why but I changed phono stages and it was gone.

 

 

That's very interesting, G.  It could be that the phono stage which you had, that caused woofer pumping, had a badly implemented bass roll-off in its RIAA curve (ie. one of the components in the RIAA circuit had the wrong value) ... and the new one you bought had a correct RIAA?  :)

 

@kelossus, maybe your phono stage's RIAA is also suspect - so, yes, borrow Matt's!  :thumb:

 

Andy

 

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Might be worthwhile having a Google to see if other users of the Silver Cube have experienced this issue.  If it is the phono stage I expect other users of the stage will have experienced it

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Posted (edited)

That video looks normal to me lol. Mechanical reaction with two transducers.

Also, theres kick drum in that piece of music as well. Hence the dynamic movement.

Get some long interconnects and move the turntable to another room. See if it replicates your problem then.

Just had another look and listen. The speaker has to move to create a sound and it looks normal to me.

Edited by Wimbo

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12 minutes ago, andyr said:

 

That's very interesting, G.  It could be that the phono stage which you had, that caused woofer pumping, had a badly implemented bass roll-off in its RIAA curve (ie. one of the components in the RIAA circuit had the wrong value) ... and the new one you bought had a correct RIAA?  :)

 

@kelossus, maybe your phono stage's RIAA is also suspect - so, yes, borrow Matt's!  :thumb:

 

Andy

 

Yep, that’s what I suspected Andy but it is only a suspicion.


Def worth a shot though as you can chase your tale with this stuff.

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