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13 minutes ago, rmpfyf said:

You missed the bit in what you've quoted where this is almost literally written... or the  many other posts on this forum by myself and many others many times?

 

 

As stated before intended for the OP, @Cafad if you've interest consider converting the lot to FLAC - should your hard disk start feeling sad enough to much on your files, there's features in FLAC that will let you know if you've still got good copies. Can't do that with WAV.

I upvoted/liked  your post as  I do believe the OP must try it for themselves.  I believe they will decide flac is the best for them.

 

I do also believe your concerns/fears come from a previous era where we struggled for cpu power and circuits that handled musical data badly.  I have experienced some of the problems you speak of, but that was years ago.  I am delightfully amazed at how well modern cpus and associated support chipsets can handle stuff I previously thought was the realm of dedicated DSPs and expensive proprietory LSI chips . 

 

 

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I've been putting off going "further digital" for many years now since I quite like the act of spinning silver discs.  However, as I said in the title since hard drive space is now so cheap I decided

Don’t forget to buy another HDD drive and backup your days of work.    

Flac are smaller, so copy quicker over connections and you can fit more on a given size media. But the biggest one is that they have extensive metadata tags. So song title, track number, artist, date,

4 minutes ago, aussievintage said:

I upvoted/liked  your post as  I do believe the OP must try it for themselves.  I believe they will decide flac is the best for them.

It's been a long day. I owe you a beer. Apologies.

 

4 minutes ago, aussievintage said:

I do also believe your concerns/fears come from a previous era where we struggled for cpu power and circuits that handled musical data badly.  I have experienced some of the problems you speak of, but that was years ago.  I am delightfully amazed at how well modern cpus and associated support chipsets can handle stuff I previously thought was the realm of dedicated DSPs and expensive proprietory LSI chips . 

I do a bit of work in OS development, software development and the like. Have the good fortune to have a former chip developer at Intel as a close friend that indulges my various stupidities (including attempting audio) along with some actual 'real' work we collaborate on (which isn't audio). 

 

The process of playback (as in 'just' playback) is not net CPU intensive. Unless the conversions involve domain conversions (e.g. PCM>DSD and the like) then it's computationally not a lot at all... to the point I'm about to use a PC for 8-channel filtering at 192kHz and it won't really break a sweat, nor is it a beast of a machine (I'm hoping it doesn't **** itself occasionally and fry my speakers, but that's another story). 

 

The differences are most practically around task latency. Flac playback isn't enough to consistently boot a modern CPU into a C-state ('how much' of the CPU is used, in a coarse way) that's lowest-latency. Data is packetised so what we end up with (this is a gross oversimplication of what happens in practice) is intermittent periods where the CPU cycles between latency states that are high and low. Of concern to us, jitter. You could lock the C-states at lowest latency to minimise the effect (I do) though keeping the whole thing on all of the time generally isn't a plus (power consumption effects etc dominate). Remember, as the cycle-to-cycle latency changes, the CPU is still responsible for moving music through to the playback device. This doesn't change whether the CPU load is 0.8% or 80% for the same task.

 

Conversion to a native format effectively means removes the need to spool up intermittently... operation is temporally smoother.

 

The effect is (obviously) more obvious on systems that are core limited, that have very lightweight operating systems/runtime environments and (of course) in DAC implementations susceptible to an audible difference in upstream jitter. Beyond which the ears involved have to be able to discern things (response, acuity, speakers, room dynamics, etc... ) If one was running a full OS, frinstance, the differences would IMHO be small to negligible - music would be a sole OS task among a few hundred, many of which would be active.

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Don’t forget too, that the OPPO has digital out via coax and optical up to 24/192,  well for the 105!  So if you don’t like the output you can feed it to an external dac.

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Hey Jeff, have a look at this. When the restrictions are eased Terry will be have a gtg.

Bring your digital and if I can, I'll bring mine via this jigger.Have read.

 

Music in the Round #92: Digibit Aria Piccolo +

 

 

 

718mitr.promo__0.jpg

Lovers of high-resolution multichannel sound still don't have it easy. While the two-channel market is replete with snazzy, efficient music servers in stylish boxes, the only multichannel equivalents are Merging Technologies' Merging+Player Multichannel-8, and a handful of stereo devices that are rumored to do multichannel, though no such claims are made in print. To be candid, the latter will play multichannel tracks via USB, Ethernet, or HDMI outputs to suitable DACs (but that's another story), but because they're aimed at the two-channel market, they tend to skimp on the CPU horsepower and RAM needed to handle higher-resolution multichannel files. Even the Merging+Player Multichannel-8 ($13,500), with its Intel i3 CPU running Roon, couldn't entirely keep up with everything in my library.

Among the many multichannel wannabes was DigiBit's elegant Aria music server, which I reviewed in March 2015. At the time, I noted that DigiBit's website made "no mention of the playback of multichannel files," though their representatives told me that all Arias could play multichannel files. Sure they could.

The datasheet for the Aria Piccolo + boldly announces "Multichannel Support via HDMI and USB outputs." This piqued my interest, not only for the overt declaration of multichannel support but also for the mention of HDMI. Given the fact that, currently, there are only three multichannel USB DACs on the consumer market, we should welcome support for HDMI so that we can play multichannel audio through an AVR or preamplifier-processor.

The Piccolo + runs a Celeron CPU and 4GB RAM and comes in three configurations, depending on the internal storage capacity: 1TB SSD,  ; 2TB SSD,  ; or 3TB HDD,  . It includes a standalone USB DVD drive for ripping CDs, with automatic ripping and tagging features. I opted for the 3TB version, as uncompressed multichannel files are about six times the size of equivalent two-channel files. On the other hand, none of the three configurations is constrained by the internal storage—the Aria can access and play files from a NAS or a directly attached USB drive.

At 17" wide by 2.4" high by 9.8" wide and 13.25 lb, the Piccolo + is somewhat smaller than the original Aria, and though it lacks its predecessor's beautifully sculpted, and no doubt expensive to machine heatsinking, its looks are equally elegant. There are no visible heatsinks—the Piccolo + clearly relies on radiating heat from its sealed and smoothly machined case. Throughout my testing and listening, it never got more than barely warm to the touch.

718mitr.picbac.jpg

The black front panel is empty but for the illuminated On/Off button. A lot more goes on around back. At left are pairs of RCA and XLR analog output jacks that are fed from the internal stereo DACs, and above them is the single HDMI connector. In the middle of the panel are AES/EBU (XLR), S/PDIF (RCA), and USB output jacks, along with a LAN (RJ45) jack and a USB in/out port for local storage devices. To the right are an IEC power inlet, the main power switch, and a connector for a possible future dedicated linear power supply.

The Piccolo + is operated via DigiBit's iAria app, which I downloaded to my iPad from the Apple Store. (There's a version for Android devices.) After I'd connected the Piccolo + to my LAN and powered it up, the app found it, then presented me with a well-designed GUI, with which all setup and playback functions can be controlled. The iAria supports automatic tagging and display of album-cover art via web access to Discogs, FreeDB, GD3, MusicBrainz, and SonataDB (classical). Albums and tracks are accessible by almost any category, and there is full playlist support. In addition, the GUI permits user editing of tags and cover art, as well as library backup.

The setup options offer a degree of user control suitable for a music server. But, consistent with DigiBit's intention of making everything as foolproof as possible, there's no real access to the Aria's operating system. For instance, I could send files from the Piccolo + via the stereo analog outputs of the built-in DAC, or via USB 2.0 if no special driver was required. (The Piccolo + is compatible with Apple AirPlay and DLNA.) But to use my exaSound e38 DAC, I had to e-mail DigiBit, who then magically downloaded and installed the driver in the Aria overnight. Now, I prefer a more hands-on approach, but I have to admit that, with DigiBit's way of doing things, there's no way the user can screw things up.

718mitr.pic2.jpg

After testing the Aria's communication and playback via the exaSound e38 with the provided sample files, I directed the Piccolo + to access my NAS, then told it to add to its library all of the more than 20TB worth of music files stored there. This was not accomplished instantaneously. While the Piccolo + was busy doing all that, I played some of the files. All two-channel formats played well, as did multichannel 24-bit/96kHz PCM and DSD64 files, but to my great disappointment, all higher resolutions played only with frequent interruptions. "Here we go again," I muttered.

But the Piccolo turned out to be much better than that. First, I canceled the comprehensive library process and instead downloaded only about 2TB of music to the Aria's HDD. Listening to those, I found that the Piccolo + played everything, including DXD and DSD256 in multichannel, without a burble or hesitation or interruption. The sound from the e38 and the rest of my Manhattan system was as clean, smooth, and satisfying as ever. From this, I concluded that the frequent interruptions I'd heard earlier were the result of playing hi-rez multichannel files while the Piccolo + was busy transferring my entire library over the network.

I then asked the Piccolo + to add another 2TB of files to its library, but without downloading them to the Piccolo's internal HD. Only after that process was completed did I try to play any of them over my LAN, and again, it was everything I'd hoped for. The logical conclusion: The Piccolo + could play every music format I had on hand, either from internal or network storage. That it couldn't play the highest-density files while simultaneously adding files to its library over a network was no big deal. As my mother said, "First, finish your homework; then you can go out and play."

718mitr.pic3.jpg

What about HDMI? I toted the Aria Piccolo + up to our place in Connecticut, intending to plug it into one of the HDMI inputs on my Marantz AV8802a preamplifier-processor, but there was another wrinkle: HDMI output is not enabled on the Piccolo + by default, but requires an e-mail request to DigiBit to activate it via the Internet.

Playing files on the Piccolo + and sending them via HDMI to the Marantz was completely successful, with two small limitations and one convenient advantage. The first limitation is a common one: HDMI output from the Aria's Intel motherboard doesn't support DSD, but converts DSD to hi-rez PCM on the fly. The second limitation is the Marantz's inability to accept any input resolution higher than 24/192. If your pre-pro can handle more, the Piccolo + will do it, as I proved by using it in my Manhattan system. The advantage: You can apply to the feed from the Piccolo + all of your AVR's audio-processing facilities, including room EQ, bass management, or whatever else it has onboard.

Given the closed structure of the Piccolo +'s GUI and its not-ready-for-gaming CPU, there's no easy way to implement bass management or equalization. For the same reason, massive library operations should not be performed while listening. Normal operations, such as adding a few albums, are not problems.

 

I'm happy to say that DigiBit's Aria Piccolo + is a well-integrated music server that's delightfully capable and easy to use. With suitable attached devices it will play uncompressed (AIFF, WAV) and lossless (ALAC, FLAC) formats up to 32/384 PCM, as well as DXD (32/352.8), DSD64, DSD128, and DSD256 files in glorious multichannel. It was a pleasure to use, and will suit the needs of almost any aficionado of music and multichannel-sound.

 

 

 

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Not to difficult to put the same track on a drive twice, once in FLAC followed by Wav.

Play both and listen Back to back for your preference.

 

For ripping I’m a fan of dbpoweramp, thanks for asking 😁

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Maybe we need a new thread to discuss formats.

 

I am confused. At the beginning of this thread it seemed FLAC and / or compression caused too much CPU load. Now it seems there is not enough load to stop the CPU from shutting down and when starting up causes delay that causes packet jitter that effects DACs.

3 hours ago, rmpfyf said:

Conversion to a native format effectively means removes the need to spool up intermittently... operation is temporally smoother.

@rmpfyf what is the conversion to native format you mention ?

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14 minutes ago, Cruncher said:

Maybe we need a new thread to discuss formats.

 

I am confused. At the beginning of this thread it seemed FLAC and / or compression caused too much CPU load. Now it seems there is not enough load to stop the CPU from shutting down and when starting up causes delay that causes packet jitter that effects DACs.

@rmpfyf what is the conversion to native format you mention ?

 

What? No one has mentioned anything about it being too much CPU load. Or CPUs shutting down and starting up - C states are called out explicitly.

 

You're smart enough, judging by your posts, not to be facetious about this.

 

In my case I go FLAC >32 bit PCM pre playback... Which is what would happen on the fly if I played back a FLAC file.

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I am not been facetious at all.

 

As far as where the topic of CPU power was mentioned.

 

11 hours ago, frednork said:

some say that flac files as they require more cpu power to extract are inferior

The way I interpreted the comment was  frednork had heard / read that CPU increase caused the drop in audio quality . I have read other threads where de-compression (higher CPU) caused a drop in audio quality.

 

You mentioned C-State. I am familiar with it only from BIOS settings which I associate with power savings so I looked up some Intel documentation here  Intel C-State which says "C1-Cn represent idle sleep states where the processor clock is inactive " and you said "Flac playback isn't enough to consistently boot a modern CPU into a C-state" ... which I assumed FLAC playback was not enough to keep the CPU at C-State C0, that is busy and not idling down. Intel openly documents the delays when coming out of C1-CN state.

 

So this stage of the thread I am wondering does music put too much load on the CPU or not enough ? or is there a third option I am missing? I don't know much about the different formats, people say they sound different and the way my mind works there should be a logical explanation.

 

When I first got into audio I was looking for a Integrated Amp and I learnt tons from @Cafad and his posts. Also I have learnt lots from others on the forum.

 

Since Cafad had only joined in the Computer Audio game recently by plugging a HDD into his Oppo I thought the appropriate level was of discussion for the thread was on the lines of 'some people think format A is better than format B, put a FLAC and Wave file onto a USB stick and see which one you like'.

 

I personally was intrigued with the comments around formats / compression / OS / jitter etc and wanted to discuss it further but I thought it would be better in a separate thread. 

 

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@Cruncher thank for for explaining.

 

The overall load whether FLAC or anything else is very small. It's how it's managed.

 

Intel does list C state latencies, they can also be polled from the command line in Linux.

 

During five minutes of playback there's a few hundred thousand changes of combined power and C state if the CPU is left to throttle automagically. This can be forced to some degree with aforementioned compromises.

 

In a net sense when there's less variance in latency. This is closer to the issue than, IMHO, net CPU load. I used to have data on this from experiments I'd done though it's packed away presently.

 

Broad strokes here and there's a ton to deep dive.

 

If you're Linux it's easy to test - identify your device end format, convert to it, have a go with aplay or similar. 

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20 hours ago, Cafad said:

Is there any advantage to flac files over wav files?  Since space isn't an issue and I'm happy with the sound from my cds I was just going to keep things simple and stick with wav files.  Unless there is a reason I shouldn't.

Flac are smaller, so copy quicker over connections and you can fit more on a given size media. But the biggest one is that they have extensive metadata tags. So song title, track number, artist, date, comments, album, contributing artist, composer, etc can all be contained in the file, along with album cover art. Wav can't have most of this additional info. The sound is identical.

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28 minutes ago, pwstereo said:

Flac are smaller, so copy quicker over connections and you can fit more on a given size media. But the biggest one is that they have extensive metadata tags. So song title, track number, artist, date, comments, album, contributing artist, composer, etc can all be contained in the file, along with album cover art. Wav can't have most of this additional info. The sound is identical.

Thanks mate, that's the sort of info I was after.  No sound diff so no big reason to convert to Flac (at least in my opinion) but a definite advantage in the area of metadata tags.

I will say though, since I ripped via dbpoweramp (which grabs all its info from the net as it reads the disc) the Oppo displays album art on every album I've played so far so I think the advantage might not be all that big.

 

Sorry guys, haven't had the time to read many of the posts on page 2 yet (my phone keeps ringing and my email keeps popping up with jobs to do), but I will as soon as I can.

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19 minutes ago, Cafad said:

I will say though, since I ripped via dbpoweramp (which grabs all its info from the net as it reads the disc) the Oppo displays album art on every album I've played so far so I think the advantage might not be all that big.

Maybe it's player dependant, I've had much better success with EAC ripping to flac, when I make wavs I get less metadata, even though it shows up from the external database when I query it in EAC.

But the gist of it is that there is no downside to flac, and it's smaller for storage and transfer.

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I really prefer Flac and with the software I said earlier, clearly not all players read this format but for this there is MP3 at 320 khz

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I also prefer the physical format, CD ', vinyl and some cassette tapes that I occupy depending on the time I have to listen to the music.

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I thought hard drive storage was cheap, hmmm 20+ years ago. 😏

 

While those continue to insist that WAV sounds better than FLAC I know to never fully trust an audiophile. :shifty:

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On 13/05/2020 at 9:38 AM, Cafad said:

Not really, it's the first relevant reason I've been given to get an i-device yet. 

 

Bugger!

This is a very slippery slope. Averting my eyes now ...:shocked:

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On 14/05/2020 at 1:52 PM, lemarquis said:

This is a very slippery slope. Averting my eyes now ...:shocked:

Hang on, I'm not giving in to the Apple giant without a fight.

 

IMG_1191.thumb.JPG.e04cca31163eaa6451021b0f8ea3b9f0.JPG

 

Do I really need more tags than this?  I'm inclined to think I don't.

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1 hour ago, Cafad said:

Hang on, I'm not giving in to the Apple giant without a fight.

 

IMG_1191.thumb.JPG.e04cca31163eaa6451021b0f8ea3b9f0.JPG

 

Do I really need more tags than this?  I'm inclined to think I don't.

When it comes to metadata, you won’t know what you’re missing until you try Roon.

 

It’s not just about the tags.

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On 13/05/2020 at 3:24 PM, Cruncher said:

There is a fair bit of angst and confusion around compression. 

I once bought a digital copy of an analog recording, that apparently sounded great in analog, but had been absolutely smashed loud once they got it into a computer.  

I emailed the person responsible and asked if I could have a copy of the digital file before it was dynamically compressed, he replied that the FLAC would decompress without loss.  

There is confusion.

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On 14/05/2020 at 12:04 PM, Sonichifi said:

but for this there is MP3 at 320 khz

Others can do what they like, but not this mp3 thing in our household. In our view, mp3 is a bit like Facebook and sugar - popular does not mean it's good for you.

 

wav and flac I don't worry about the differences between.

 

A few years back, someone started a thread here that reported on some research findings regarding lossless files with and without metadata. With extremely high end stereos using test conditions an audible difference was identified between flac files with metadata, and flac files without metadata. The main problem was image files, so if this very slight effect is of concern to anyone, the advice was, don't attach album image files.

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3 hours ago, jt301 said:

It’s not just about the tags.

So what's it about then?

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1 hour ago, Luc said:

So what's it about then?

The music.

 

However besides the basic album, artist and track names with album cover that tags give you, Roon also gives you artist bios, many of the song lyrics, album reviews and credits for the album including composers and people who played on the album and what they played.

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There are people that can hear the difference between flac and wav. On my system with my ears I can't.

However

To make sure I dot the i's and cross the t's: I ripped all my discs with dbpoweramp in 3 formats: wav, flac and mp3. And where i did not I converted it so that I have it in 3 formats. When I was using a mac mini I had it all in AIFF as well.

@cafad

dbpoweramp is very powerful - I have the full version. 

If you have ripped in one format and want to have a copy in another format it can do a batch conversion - very easy. 

I use the CD Ripper, the Audio Converter and PerfectTunes

If you need help or info just let me know.

 

Regardless - welcome to music not on a LP or a CD :).

 

Now take the next step and go for Tidal 😀 or similar - even less work.

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26 minutes ago, Jventer said:

There are people that can hear the difference between flac and wav. On my system with my ears I can't.

However

To make sure I dot the i's and cross the t's: I ripped all my discs with dbpoweramp in 3 formats: wav, flac and mp3. And where i did not I converted it so that I have it in 3 formats. When I was using a mac mini I had it all in AIFF as well.

@cafad

dbpoweramp is very powerful - I have the full version. 

If you have ripped in one format and want to have a copy in another format it can do a batch conversion - very easy. 

I use the CD Ripper, the Audio Converter and PerfectTunes

If you need help or info just let me know.

 

Regardless - welcome to music not on a LP or a CD :).

 

Now take the next step and go for Tidal 😀 or similar - even less work.

Totally agree with you on the DBpoweramp sentiments. The full version is great and associated programs are very handy. I also like perfect tunes for bulk processing and finding album artwork if you are starting with a messy baseline.

 

On a side note, I also use a music program called Music Bee. Its a free music program in the vein of Monkey Media and iTunes etc.  Where I really like it is that It has allowed me to create filters from my iTunes ripped AAC files which are simply 256kbps and also my Media Monkey FLAC files which as I posted very early in this thread are uncompressed using DBpoweramp. 

The really cool thing about Music Bee is  I can simply select the filter I created (to which there are no limits) in my case FLAC or AAC and it instantly loads all files and all IDtags associated so artwork, genre everything is there.   It does not mix FLAC and AAC all together so no duplicates and it loads instantly. 

The interface is completely customizable so you can view it as you like with genres or whatever  and it provides instant access to your computer drives on the left hand panel.

As a bonus it also provides a full bio on the artists and all their albums and similar artitsts in your library etc etc etc simply clicking on the music explorer tab of the artist you are listening too which I suspect is much like Roon. 

 

Sadly there is no phone app like media monkey which is why I got the Gold license on that.  I am also yet to work out if I can push Music Bee through my home network which is why I continue with media monkey as I can access that via my Oppo, not as a program but as a file system which then allows me access to all the files on my harddrive.  Great for me because I have no idea what my computer username and password is!!!

Anyway, if you listen to music with your computer or Laptop hooked into your DAC or whatever Music Bee would also be a brilliant option IMHO.

 

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  • 2 months later...

So what are your thoughts here.... If you rip a CD using Exact Audio Copy (or similar app) for a 1:1 copy with error checking for accurate file copy to FLAC. When you play the CD or FLAC file using the same CD Player (with USB input), should they sound the same? Also assuming any re-clocking and/or upsampling applies to both the CD+FLAC.

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1 hour ago, audiohippo said:

So what are your thoughts here.... If you rip a CD using Exact Audio Copy (or similar app) for a 1:1 copy with error checking for accurate file copy to FLAC. When you play the CD or FLAC file using the same CD Player (with USB input), should they sound the same? Also assuming any re-clocking and/or upsampling applies to both the CD+FLAC.

No, though it won't be for differences in the source content.

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32 minutes ago, rmpfyf said:

No, though it won't be for differences in the source content.

Can you elaborate more on the 'differences in the source content'

Edited by audiohippo
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37 minutes ago, audiohippo said:

Can you elaborate more on the 'differences in the source content'

I mean to say there will be no differences in source content. 

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16 hours ago, audiohippo said:

So what are your thoughts here.... If you rip a CD using Exact Audio Copy (or similar app) for a 1:1 copy with error checking for accurate file copy to FLAC. When you play the CD or FLAC file using the same CD Player (with USB input), should they sound the same? Also assuming any re-clocking and/or upsampling applies to both the CD+FLAC.

Short answer is No. One version is read by the laser, the other by the internal DAC. There is different processing going on. They may sound very close though, YMMV. 

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      If you are advertising multiple items, you must post one bulk price only, or post seperate ads for each item If you include any reference to pricing whatsoever in this section (excluding RRP), your ad will not be approved If you don't include photographs of the actual item being sold, your ad will not be approved



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