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Any Class D Amp Lovers Here ?


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Hi All, I have been looking at some class D amps, mainly for a bedroom, computer set up, 200 watts is what I am looking at, now, I have read that class D is more efficient, with lower noise, but then, on some forums some comment that they have higher noise ?! so, what are your experiences with class D amps, do or have you owned any ? how did they compare ? Any love for them here ? Thanks 

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I have owned class d amps from W4s and Bel Canto. I enjoyed both (the Bel Canto more than the W4s). They are not perfect, but nothing in the price range is. Great bass control and dynamics, but slightly flat soundstage. Definitely worth auditioning - they may have the right mix of compromises for you. 

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For the record, it's class D, not D class. I have a pair of NC400 monoblocks that I use as my backup power amps and I find them clean, tight, clear, wide bandwidth, focused soundstage, very power efficient, drive moderately difficult loads very well and an absolute bargain compared to other amps with similar qualities. They lack the depth and body of a great soundstage, and harmonic structure that brings out the realistic tonality and timbre "sweetness" in the midrange and top end of the finer amps but those come at a huge cost penalty. Not all class D amps are created equal, mind you.

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My experience is with the lower power cheaper class D.  Biggest I have is 100 watts (more like 70 watts really - you know how the marketing people exaggerate) 

 

23 minutes ago, Ittaku said:

 They lack the depth and body of a great soundstage, and harmonic structure that brings out the realistic tonality and timbre "sweetness" in the midrange and top end of the finer amps but those come at a huge cost penalty. Not all class D amps are created equal, mind you.

 

That's key here I think.    Especially amongst the budget end of the market.  Hard to generalise.   Still there examples of good class D , even at the ultra-cheap end.     Those ncore you have and the purifi  amps are well considered by many, and they are still reasonably priced.     

 

I have not particularly noticed the midrange and top end lack you speak of, but then I am not so familiar with the "finer amps" at the top end.   In the mid and top area however, I found a Tripath class D came quite close to the finesse of the SET valve amps I normally use.

 

 

 

1 hour ago, Digital Man said:

 I have read that class D is more efficient, with lower noise, but then, on some forums some comment that they have higher noise ?!

To address one point the OP raised.  Noise?  I haven't experienced noise with even the cheap ones.  Lucky maybe?  I don't see it as a characteristic of class D particularly anyway.

 

And absolutely they are way more efficient than other classes.

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I had owned a couple of class d amps 7 or 8 years ago , they were the tact and bel canto’s. I think the tact used one of the earlier iteration of the b&o ice module.

 

tbh I walked away from class d amps thinking they had decent bass but that was about it, very dry treble and mid and they pancaked into difficult loads making them sound worse. In effect I was in the anti class d brigade.

 

About two years ago I first listen to the Kii three active system and absolutely loved its power, bass, dynamics, detail and indeed musicality, so much so I now own a pair and love them. The kii’s use the latest N core class d design by BrunoPutzy’s, who is considered to be at or close to the forefront of class d design.

 

The class d designs I have recently heard have been the nuforce/nuprime ida 16 integrated and st100 power amp, which also sound pretty great, and dont cost a fortune.

 

in my eyes(and ears) I think class d continues to exponentially evolve technologically and from a listening perspective. I have been completely converted by the models above and am excited as to where the tech will go in the next 10 years or so.

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I think it has much more sense to talk about particular models/brands than any generalisation. Last time I heard Devialet and Primare they were both excellent. 

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With the latest Purify and Ncore, do you think Class D amps now are in a position to compete head to head against expensive Class A amps in a true ABX blind setting? It would be interesting to see such a study to really understand whether there is a true gap, or is it just personal reservation against class d.

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1 minute ago, spottie said:

With the latest Purify and Ncore, do you think Class D amps now are in a position to compete head to head against expensive Class A amps in a true ABX blind setting? It would be interesting to see such a study to really understand whether there is a true gap, or is it just personal reservation against class d.

 

ABX testing is meaningless in my opinion. The only valid test is the long term listening experience.

 

I have NC500 and 1200 monoblocks and they're both great sounding amps, but as much as I want them to be as good as my class A,AB references they're not. However, my NC1200 mono's give me the best bass I've heard in my system so I use them to power the woofers.  

 

 

 

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6 minutes ago, Art Vandelay said:

 

ABX testing is meaningless in my opinion. The only valid test is the long term listening experience.

I presume you have not spent a long time with class D and whatever time you have was a mere fraction of class A/B or whatever? Given this to be true, by your own definition it seems a bit .

... unfair. 

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2 hours ago, Ittaku said:

 They lack the depth and body of a great soundstage, and harmonic structure that brings out the realistic tonality and timbre "sweetness" in the midrange and top end of the finer amps but those come at a huge cost penalty. Not all class D amps are created equal, mind you.

I found this with the few Class D amps I have used in the past. It was until I went with the Nord Ncore500 with Sonic Imagery opamps where this changed for me. 

For me it was the after market opamps that lifted the Class D amp up in line with my other Class AB amps. So much so that I now use one as my main amp which was made locally with SI opamps and Toroidals.

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3 minutes ago, Satanica said:

I presume you have not spent a long time with class D and whatever time you have was a mere fraction of class A/B or whatever? Given this to be true, by your own definition it seems a bit .

... unfair. 

 

For me, a few months is long enough. 

I come to class D without any preconceptions or bias, but my opinion ultimately only matters for me.

If you're happy with class D then you should use class D because it's more efficient and occupies less shelf or floor space.   

 

 

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Well worth considering.

 

Developing field and getting better.

All going to be different the same way Valve Tubes or S/S are.

 

Very clear ,very detailed, firm control on bass.

Low power input, no heat, lightweight.

 

Mine were 'voiced' to work best with tube input.

 

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3 hours ago, Ittaku said:

For the record, it's class D, not D class. I have a pair of NC400 monoblocks that I use as my backup power amps and I find them clean, tight, clear, wide bandwidth, focused soundstage, very power efficient, drive moderately difficult loads very well and an absolute bargain compared to other amps with similar qualities. They lack the depth and body of a great soundstage, and harmonic structure that brings out the realistic tonality and timbre "sweetness" in the midrange and top end of the finer amps but those come at a huge cost penalty. Not all class D amps are created equal, mind you.

Have you had the opportunity to try the purifi based amps? They are supposed to address many of the shortcomings you experiece with the ncores.

As others have said, the buffer and opamp choice for the nc500 modules can also be used to "tune" the sound.

Your other amps are killer though!

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22 minutes ago, Satanica said:

I presume you have not spent a long time with class D and whatever time you have was a mere fraction of class A/B or whatever? Given this to be true, by your own definition it seems a bit .

... unfair. 

Actually, I take the comment as it takes an experienced listener months to tell the difference between state-of-the-art Class D and Class A/B reference amps in a (possibly) bias setting. Even if Class D does not win the heart of the listener, I think Class D has done a very good job

 

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3 hours ago, Ittaku said:

Not all class D amps are created equal, mind you.

 

Although most class D amplifiers use either ICE power or Hypex modules and identical SMPS's, so at their core they're all very similar or near identical. The primary differentiator is the input stage (buffer) which adds almost insignificantly to the measured performance in most cases.  This is very unlike class AB amplifiers which are mostly discrete designs with a wide range of topologies and ditto measured performance. 

 

 

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I don't understand the angst about this.

As we all know there are good and bad examples of Class D amplifiers, just as there is with other topographies. I personally have never found a Class D amplifier that I could live with, but that does not mean the technology is flawed.

This is the part where individual choice happens and god forbid, a subjective judgement regarding their worth ( or lack thereof ) is made by each person.

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8 minutes ago, rantan said:

I don't understand the angst about this.

Sometimes, I think some members see angst where there is none or much less than is seemingly perceived. Disagreement does not equal angst and can form the basis of learning. 

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Just now, Satanica said:

Sometimes, I think some members see angst where there is none or much less than is seemingly perceived. Disagreement does not equal angst and can form the basis of learning. 

Yes.

Fair enough.

I think angst does exist on this topic but probably not  in this thread.

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2 minutes ago, rantan said:

Yes.

Fair enough.

I think angst does exist on this topic but probably not  in this thread.

Seeing as though we're being nice and civilised the more I think about it I'm sure I've overestimated the amount of fire behind many posts too. 

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23 minutes ago, AudioGeek said:

Have you had the opportunity to try the purifi based amps? They are supposed to address many of the shortcomings you experiece with the ncores.

Not yet, but I'm always open to new technology. Even in light of the "limitations" of the Ncore amplifiers, I am still extremely impressed with their performance/price ratio and am hopeful for the future.

 

This is going to seem ridiculous, so don't take it to heart since this is terribly hand drawn with a mouse and purely my perception.

 

I know that all class D is solid state, but when I speak of solid state here I speak only of class A and/or A/AB.

 

Here is a graph of price/musicality from my own experience with solid state A/AB in black, valve A/B in red, and class D in blue. Obviously not remotely to scale and a ridiculous generalisation since it is more about implementation than design, but again this is purely my own perspective on well designed versions of each.

 

 

image.png.c076d3395f7384ce1ee190e37b6f84bf.png

 

The main points are - the finest solid state and valve amps converge at equal peak performance in the high price category. Cheap solid state is better than cheap valve. Mid price valve is better than mid price solid state. Cheap class D is better than both, mid-price is equivalent, and then regular solid state and valve both outperform them.

 

You mileage will almost certainly wildly vary with mine, and I have nothing to prove any of this, it's just my perception.

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31 minutes ago, Ittaku said:

Not yet, but I'm always open to new technology. Even in light of the "limitations" of the Ncore amplifiers, I am still extremely impressed with their performance/price ratio and am hopeful for the future.

 

This is going to seem ridiculous, so don't take it to heart since this is terribly hand drawn with a mouse and purely my perception.

 

I know that all class D is solid state, but when I speak of solid state here I speak only of class A and/or A/AB.

 

Here is a graph of price/musicality from my own experience with solid state A/AB in black, valve A/B in red, and class D in blue. Obviously not remotely to scale and a ridiculous generalisation since it is more about implementation than design, but again this is purely my own perspective on well designed versions of each.

 

 

image.png.c076d3395f7384ce1ee190e37b6f84bf.png

 

The main points are - the finest solid state and valve amps converge at equal peak performance in the high price category. Cheap solid state is better than cheap valve. Mid price valve is better than mid price solid state. Cheap class D is better than both, mid-price is equivalent, and then regular solid state and valve both outperform them.

 

You mileage will almost certainly wildly vary with mine, and I have nothing to prove any of this, it's just my perception.

I like this. Too often the discussion is very broad regarding these different topologies and people are argueing with a totally different price point in mind. 

 

I realise this graph is not to scale but just wondering in your experience where that price range is where all 3 are at a similar price and musicality

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16 minutes ago, frednork said:

I realise this graph is not to scale but just wondering in your experience where that price range is where all 3 are at a similar price and musicality

I realised myself I should have elaborated as people have wildly different views on what "midrange" is, but about the 2K mark for pure power amps.  At 5k the valve amps are really starting to kick goals. At 10k onwards it's a matter of preference but all well-designed classical topologies sound better than class D to me. (Integrated amps probably double that price range.)

 

Sure there are wild exceptions, and you can pay 10x more than you should for equivalent quality (in my opinion) but that will always be the nature of the market. I speak purely of what I see as the well-designed equipment worth its money, and not what -- in my opinion -- are rip offs.

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