Audio Technica cartridges ???

[aussievintage]

4 minutes ago, 08Boss302 said:

Are you referring to the vm540ml for $383?

I have seen Klapp have them on sale, they have the version with the at headshell at that price.  You won't need the headshell if that's the one your looking at, but, it's a good headshell and that price they have is very good imo.

 

The VM95ml is different again and usually had for approx $300

 

They both review very well.  I think on paper the 540ml spec is better, though this doesn't always return an audible benefit,  and most comparisons put them pretty equal with a minor nod again to the 540, but it can be system dependant also.

 

They do come from a slightly different line heritage, but seem to measure closely - pick the one that best matches your arm would be advisable.  Do a bit of research of your arm and either cart, refer to the vinyl engine resonance calculator also.  

 

I haven't heard either in person  so can't comment from experience, but, I like the interchangeable flexibility of the vm95 range and given the praise both receive my money would probably go there. It also matches up to my arm well which is important too.

 

 

Yep  $290 on Amazon for the VM95ML.  $427 for the 540 though.

 

[John Baseley]

@08Boss302 yes - that's the one I've seen. I'm going into this fairly blind and doing the "purchase by reviews" theory unfortunately seeing I don't have any local place to test/listen - but am getting insights from SNA as well. I've got MUCH reading to do on the Cartridge/ Arm/ Plinth/ Platter/ Mass interrelation and sound aspect of Turntables..

[08Boss302]

4 minutes ago, John Baseley said:

@08Boss302 yes - that's the one I've seen. I'm going into this fairly blind and doing the "purchase by reviews" theory unfortunately seeing I don't have any local place to test/listen - but am getting insights from SNA as well. I've got MUCH reading to do on the Cartridge/ Arm/ Plinth/ Platter/ Mass interrelation and sound aspect of Turntables..

It's a fun journey, have fun with it, plenty of good help here at SnA. Cartridges are hard to and rarely are able to be auditioned.  Reviews, user experience etc are all powerful in assisting a decision I agree.

 

I'm sure if you started a thread requesting some user experience on your table and carts to match it, it will give you lots of quality responses and reading.

 

Lots of brands and carts out there to consider in all price ranges. The Rega is a  very popular table, there's bound to be good feedback to help you.

 

I still purchase by review too, nothing wrong with that.  YouTube can be helpful video and comments.

 

Audio Technica make a tonne of carts, all pretty popular. I'd learn a bit about the difference in stylus types and their sound signatures  and then work out the arm match.  

[John Baseley]

5 minutes ago, 08Boss302 said:

 

 

5 minutes ago, 08Boss302 said:

I'd learn a bit about the difference in stylus types and their sound signatures

I didn't even know that there were different types of stylus types until last week..

[aussievintage]

Just now, John Baseley said:

 

I didn't even know that there were different types of stylus types until last week..

There aren't.  Just MicroLine, nothing else to consider  

[John Baseley]

3 hours ago, 08Boss302 said:

Are you referring to the vm540ml for $383?

I have seen Klapp have them on sale, they have the version with the at headshell at that price.  You won't need the headshell if that's the one your looking at, but, it's a good headshell and that price they have is very good imo.

 

The VM95ml is different again and usually had for approx $300

 

They both review very well.  I think on paper the 540ml spec is better, though this doesn't always return an audible benefit,  and most comparisons put them pretty equal with a minor nod again to the 540, but it can be system dependant also.

 

They do come from a slightly different line heritage, but seem to measure closely - pick the one that best matches your arm would be advisable.  Do a bit of research of your arm and either cart, refer to the vinyl engine resonance calculator also.  

 

I haven't heard either in person  so can't comment from experience, but, I like the interchangeable flexibility of the vm95 range and given the praise both receive my money would probably go there. It also matches up to my arm well which is important too.

Yes..I typed the wrong cartridge TWICE.  Definitely the VM540..not the 750ML at $700.

[mkaramazov]

3 hours ago, aussievintage said:

There aren't.  Just MicroLine, nothing else to consider  

I agree wholeheartedly . Other stylus shapes are capable of great sound,  but in some ways a well set up microline is all you need.

19 hours ago, eltech said:

 

I bought a Denon DL-110.

I compared recordings made with the AT-150MLX and I found that the Denon has a flatter frequency response. The Denon is clearer, more accurate, and even the high frequencies are faster and more defined and the bass is deeper and overall more dynamic than the AT. This was interesting to me because I thought that a microline stylus would be more revealing than a special elliptical, but no. .

This is really interesting,  as I had the reverse experience.  All the AT microlines I have spent time with - AT440ml, AT33ML MC,  AT36ML, AT VM540ML - sound far better than the DL110 I have here,  which sounds punchy, musical and full,  but lacks the extension and detail of the ATs.  But I haven't yet installed my AT150MLX, and /or perhaps my DL110 is not a good sample.  

4 hours ago, John Baseley said:

 

I think I will take the AT VM750ML route - so thankyou @aussievintage for the post. I can get the AT VM750ML for $14 more ($383) than the Ortofon 2M Blue ($369) from local Aussie stores. I think it will suit my needs after getting back into vinyl after many years off to match the Rega Planar 3. Side note - any posts or sites for TT and Cartridge setup ? Thanks.

Do you mean the AT VM740ML or the AT VM540ML? If you can get the 740 for under $400 its a great buy! 

 

$440 is the going Australian  rate for the 540ML (at Decibel hifi)  which is actually a reasonable price given the exchange rate.  You can get it on ebay for closer to $400, though you then risk an international seller.  

 

The 540ML and 740ML are the same internally,  the only difference is the metal body for the 740. Whether you need the metal body depends on your arm and if the extra weight helps. 

 

Btw,  there is some confusion about the pricing of the more expensive Special Line Contact and Shibata AT stylii.  In theory the Microline is a more advanced profile, and many manufacturers (such as Hana) will charge more for the ML stylus, which should be more complex to manufacture .  Obviously AT got a good deal on the ML stylii,  or perhaps the SLC and SH are special in other ways that AT have not made clear to buyers  Or alternatively, they can just charge more for these stylii,  because of their subjective sound quality.  

Edited May 9, 2020 by mkaramazov

[mkaramazov]

15 minutes ago, John Baseley said:

Yes..I typed the wrong cartridge TWICE.  Definitely the VM540..not the 750ML at $700.

Sorry,  just saw this

[eltech]

21 hours ago, mkaramazov said:

This is really interesting,  as I had the reverse experience.  All the AT microlines I have spent time with - AT440ml, AT33ML MC,  AT36ML, AT VM540ML - sound far better than the DL110 I have here,  which sounds punchy, musical and full,  but lacks the extension and detail of the ATs.  But I haven't yet installed my AT150MLX, and /or perhaps my DL110 is not a good sample.  

I agree it is very interesting.

 

I actually owned two AT150MLX which sounded identical. I tried them on a variety of turntables. I used them for critical evaluation of tonearms and turntables themselves. I used them with ultra lightweight tonearms and medium heavy tonearms. The sound was incredibly similar irrespective of which tonearm they were on.

For purposes of comparison I made recordings on different tonearms and turntables.  I am very familiar with the sound.

 

The DL-110 is a much better cartridge. It's a step up in sound across all frequencies.

More extended. More detailed. More accurate and natural tone.

 

I checked recordings on both headphones and speakers.

 

I also owned an AT440Mlb at the same time as owning the AT150MLX. The 440 is not as good as the 150. It's too bright, (it's frequency response is not flat).

 

The capacitance of my phono cables are 80pf + 15pf for tonearm and zero on the preamp means I was correctly loading the AT cartridges at 100pf. The AT cartridges will have a rising frequency response if the capacitance goes over 100pf.

But even correctly loaded the AT frequency response isn't as flat as the DL-110.

 

Your experience is obviously quite different to mine.  *Shrugs*

Edited May 10, 2020 by eltech

[aussievintage]

20 minutes ago, eltech said:

More detailed.

This is the strange thing for me. 

 

Fancy stylus shapes like shibata, were invented because conical and elliptical styluses, could not get reproduce the higher frequencies well enough for quadrophonic, and high-end cartridges benefit - microline being even better than shibata IMO, but at least as good.

 

The DL-110 stylus must be a very special elliptical indeed as the cartridge claims response up to 45kHz like the more exotic shapes, and to better them for detail.   Pity it is more expensive than some of the AT microlines and the stylus is non-replaceable. 

[mloutfie]

Dl110 is 0.1x0.2mm stylus profile so much smaller than 0.7x0.3 elliptical price wise it's always around $270-290 in most online retailer so pretty much the same price with at 95 microline

[mkaramazov]

2 hours ago, eltech said:

Your experience is obviously quite different to mine.  *Shrugs*

Thanks eltech,  you have given me an incentive to get my DL110 and give it another go! 

[eltech]

5 minutes ago, mkaramazov said:

Thanks eltech,  you have given me an incentive to get my DL110 and give it another go! 

During the "run in" period my cartridge behaved very badly. It was initially balanced then sounded bright and brittle, then it got a hole in the midrange. But after the suspension ran in it was fantastic. I have read some comments on forums where people described all of the above and I get the feeling they gave up before it had run in. 

 

I hope you have a good experience this time. 

I'm running mine with a very heavy headshell on a light-medium mass tonearm.

[eltech]

2 hours ago, aussievintage said:

The DL-110 stylus must be a very special elliptical indeed as the cartridge claims response up to 45kHz like the more exotic shapes, and to better them for detail.   Pity it is more expensive than some of the AT microlines and the stylus is non-replaceable. 

The diamond is a greeny yellow colour. I think this means it's a natural diamond gemstone - not a cultured diamond.

 

It is what it is. That's the deal with moving coil cartridges.

 

I had avoided MC for years due to the non-replacable stylus. I now regard myself as having made an erroneous decision. 

I was told many years ago to get an MC. With hindsight I should have listened. 

 

[mkaramazov]

22 minutes ago, eltech said:

I hope you have a good experience this time. 

I'm running mine with a very heavy headshell on a light-medium mass tonearm.

This is useful.  I used the DL110 cartridge in my Yamaha PX3 linear tracker, which has a short,  low mass arm. I might give it a go in the other turntable (Thorens 124 / SME3012).   

 

I should stress I really liked my DL110. My DL110 tracks beautifully,  and has an organic punchy sound that is very persuasive.  The stylus under a microscope is a work of art, especially given the price.  And it being an MC doesn't worry me,  I have several LOMCs here,  and they are all special in their own way.  I have also recommended the Denon to others,  particularly where their systems will not cope with a bright sound (such as that which emanates  from the AT440ML). I  just found that - personally -  I preferred some of my AT cartridges,   which sounded to me  more detailed. But I will try again with the Denon,  as I wanted to like it. 

 

Btw the one AT cartridge I had that sounded to my ears similar to the sound signature of the DL110 was a vintage AT30E LOMC ( one of the rare MCs with a replaceable stylus).  Just in case you ever stumble on one and are curious!  

Edited May 10, 2020 by mkaramazov

[aussievintage]

51 minutes ago, mloutfie said:

Dl110 is 0.1x0.2mm stylus profile so much smaller than 0.7x0.3 elliptical price wise it's always around $270-290 in most online retailer so pretty much the same price with at 95 microline

Oh.  It was $500 approx everywhere I found in Australia.  It is $349 USD at LP-Gear.    

[mloutfie]

10 minutes ago, aussievintage said:

Oh.  It was $500 approx everywhere I found in Australia.  It is $349 USD at LP-Gear.    

Amazon au is $280 with free delivery https://www.amazon.com.au/DENON-DL-110-Phono-Cartridge/dp/B07TNP2Y8P/ref=mp_s_a_1_1?keywords=dl110&qid=1589106601&sr=8-1

 

 

Edited May 10, 2020 by mloutfie

[eltech]

18 minutes ago, aussievintage said:

Oh.  It was $500 approx everywhere I found in Australia.  It is $349 USD at LP-Gear.    

$285 eBay Australia.

[eltech]

20 minutes ago, mkaramazov said:

Btw the one AT cartridge I had that sounded to my ears similar to the sound signature of the DL110 was a vintage AT30E LOMC ( one of the rare MCs with a replaceable stylus).  Just in case you ever stumble on one and are curious!  

I actually had an AT30E years ago. I did enjoy it! But I can only remember that it had a smooth detailed sound.

I sold the body a few years ago.

[aussievintage]

2 minutes ago, eltech said:

$285 eBay Australia.

Found it.  Yeah, a hifi clearance special - fantastic deal.  It really is $500 most places.   

 

 

 

Edited May 10, 2020 by aussievintage

[Ahh- Schnoo Schnoo]

1 hour ago, eltech said:

During the "run in" period my cartridge behaved very badly. It was initially balanced then sounded bright and brittle, then it got a hole in the midrange. But after the suspension ran in it was fantastic. I have read some comments on forums where people described all of the above and I get the feeling they gave up before it had run in. 

 

I hope you have a good experience this time. 

I'm running mine with a very heavy headshell on a light-medium mass tonearm.

@eltech

How long did your Denon DL110 take to run in?

I have just purchased one from Amazon for a good price, interested in knowing how long I need to give it.

Cheers

[mkaramazov]

 

12 hours ago, mloutfie said:

Dl110 is 0.1x0.2mm stylus profile so much smaller than 0.7x0.3 elliptical price wise it's always around $270-290 in most online retailer so pretty much the same price with at 95 microline

I thought that was the "shank" size and not the tip size? There is discussion of this here. 

14 hours ago, aussievintage said:

The DL-110 stylus must be a very special elliptical indeed as the cartridge claims response up to 45kHz like the more exotic shapes, and to better them for detail.   

 

12 hours ago, eltech said:

The diamond is a greeny yellow colour. I think this means it's a natural diamond gemstone - not a cultured diamond.

 

Since this thread has moved towards  comparing the AT microline and the DL110, I thought I would share a few snaps of the stylii that I have. I make no claims on the quality of my pics, and as you can see I live in a dustbowl, but in the spirit of sharing, I thought it would be interesting. 

 

This is a shot of my DL110 (pardon the dust). A shortish aluminium cantilever, and a beautiful stone. There is lots of talk on the web about how Denon not only uses high quality diamonds, but also polishes them to a high standard. You can actually see the greenish / yellow colour here that eltech refers to - I never noticed before. I guess not all diamonds are the same. 

 

 

This is AT VM540ML that I use. I don't have the equipment to get close enough to see the lovely precision by which diamond is cut by Namiki, but I have a magnifier which gets really close in the sunlight - the ridges in microline are amazing. Note the AT uses a longer (and thinner?) aluminium cantilever than the Denon. 

 

 

For reference, here is the AT 440ML OCC. Looks very similar to the AT VM540ML, except the cantilever in this is not polished. Note this the first variant of the 440ML- renowned as the brightest sounding. It was indeed painful to listen to for the first hundred hours, but then it settled down. The below picture is after many hours of use - lots of crud on the cantilever. 

 

 

For comparison, this is the simply glorious stylus of the AT36ML LOMC I have. This is a very fine microline cut diamond on a gold plated beryllium cantilever. I think it is a work of art. I am a huge fan of the old beryllium cantilevered ATs - I have several and they all sound special. 

 

 

 

 

[aussievintage]

Thanks for those pictures.  Yes, I wondered about the size being shank size.  You link doesn't work for me but  https://www.vinylengine.com/turntable_forum/viewtopic.php?t=47669

 

Thanks for the pictures.  Always enjoy seeing stylus closeups.    My avatar picture is a closeup of the VM95ML microline stylus btw.   Lovely clear diamond with exquisite shape and ridges

Edited May 10, 2020 by aussievintage

[08Boss302]

Very nice pics guys, and nice collection of carts!!  Gives a great illustration of the differences.  

I have been looking at and considering this cartridge for quite a while.  After hearing and reading very very good things about the Denon I will try one very soon on my Technics SL1200mkII and am very much looking forward to it. I just read thru the link @aussievintage attached and its a good read.

 

Here is some of my basic understanding on the DL110. Please dont take my information as gospel but its how I have concluded fitting a DL110 to my table will work.

There seems to be bit of arjy barjy on the 10hz compliance of the  DL110 however most agree on it being a low/medium compliance of around 14cu.   The manufacturer spec measure it at 100hz and thankfully there a people around that are much smarter than I and done the conversion to 10hz for us. 

 

I am of the understanding the Denon will match up well in my situation with slightly heavier headshell - and that is probably one thing to be considered with the Denon in that it is a light cart at 4.8grams and is said to require a bit of extra mass to get the best out of it on light to medium arms (from all I have read).  The Denon DL103 and DL103R (LOMC)  even more so.  Of course the great thing with the DL110 is it can be used with a MM phono stage.  The AT VM range should have no issues with the std Technics headshell.

 

On the Technics for example, the factory arm/headshell has a  12gram effective mass (medium mass) with the std headshell being 7.5gram and the arm being 4.5grams. Using a slightly heavier headshell of about 10-12 grams on that arm does justice to the Denon when using VE calculator, I've read people using upto 15gram on the Technics arm, but to do that you'd need to also use the auxillary counterweight on the arm.  I have also read people using the std headshell with great outcome so I guess user experience and expectation bias can vary also.

@eltech mentions above a very heavy headshell on his Denon, not sure what arm or headshell weight he is using but again the increase of effective mass is trending.

 

The AT line seems to fit up well without much fuss, I am keen on the VM95ml due to reading great things and also  due to its flexibility in stylus swapping.  The 540ml also reviews well, but I keep coming back to the 95ml even though the 540ml specs read better I am not sure my ears will hear those minor differences and again, only from what I read, the 540ml can come accross a little brighter or more sterile, which would not be to my liking.  The ML range is said to track like a tram too.

 

Given both can be found for around $280 what a great price point to performance ratio - thats not even opening up the hole for the other carts in this range!!  I own the Nagaoka MP110 and Ortofon Blue, also around this range and constantly compared to these two carts.  I am looking forward to making my own judgement once I own them all.

 

some interesting articles for your reading pleasure.

 

https://www.analogplanet.com/content/ortofon-2m-blue-versus-audio-technica-vm95ml

 

https://www.positive-feedback.com/Issue15/denondl110.htm

[aussievintage]

 

A couple of videos I hadn't seen before.  The first demonstrates why I don't like the 440ML carts.  This is a b, but mine is an a, which I think is even brighter. The video compares them to a 95ML

 

 

 

This one demonstrates IGD vs stylus shape with a range of carts starting with an AT91, an Ortofon Red, a 

Nagaoka MP-110 (which I think lacks highs), and an AT-440mlb which is too bright.

 

 

Edited May 15, 2020 by aussievintage