Gabehcuod Posted April 29, 2020 Share Posted April 29, 2020 I've spent the past week looking around for power-amplifiers as an upgrade to my system. Whenever I would ask people in the chat groups they would mock me for my very low budget. My system is: A&K Kann cube (XLR Out) or Musical Fidelity A3.5 CDP -> Kinki EX-P7 -> Proton D1200 power-amp -> System Audio Pandion 2 I only have around $1500AUD to spend as I intend to keep the proton for my electrostatic headphones. Planning on going the used/refurbished route. What brands should I look for, and what should I avoid? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gryffles Posted April 29, 2020 Share Posted April 29, 2020 Are you keeping an eye on the classifieds here? There’s an Ayre power amp for sale atm. Older model but high quality 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Volunteer sir sanders zingmore Posted April 29, 2020 Volunteer Share Posted April 29, 2020 Is there anything missing from your current amp? I’d never heard of it but this review (which google showed me) is very good http://www.hifi-classic.net/review/proton-d1200-165.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mbz Posted April 29, 2020 Share Posted April 29, 2020 Think I'm on a tighter budget... Here is a list I lifted off Audiokarma McIntosh MC-2300, Mark Levinson ML-2, Krell KSA-100(?) Accuphase P-300 Sansui AU 7700 Marantz 1060b Sansui BA-5000 Pioneer Spec-2 Accuphase P300 Marantz 510M Kenwood 700M Yamaha M-2 Yamaha MX-10000 Yamaha MX-2000 Yamaha B-6 Yamaha B-2 Perreaux PMF 2150B Sansui BA 5000 Marantz 170DC (For the non switching DC lush sound and amazing looks) Perreaux PMF 3150 (For the clinically accurate and immensely powerful FET) Pioneer SPEC 2: What a machine. Power/Pre Combinations: Sansui BA-2000 with a CA-3000 preamp Marantz 140 with a 3200 pre Rotel RB-980BX still holds the over-looked award. Sansui BA-5000 They are mostly high end and priced accordingly. Maybe something like Yamaha MX-1000, MX-1, M-70 Harman Kardon Citation upto 19 I'd stay away from the vintage FET amps like Yam B-2. Also the amp must have a speaker protection circuit (which can be retro fitted), As always best to listen then decide... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gabehcuod Posted April 29, 2020 Author Share Posted April 29, 2020 6 minutes ago, sir sanders zingmore said: Is there anything missing from your current amp? I’d never heard of it but this review (which google showed me) is very good http://www.hifi-classic.net/review/proton-d1200-165.html Nothing is missing no. I bought it for $500 off eBay so i figured It would be the next logical upgrade. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gabehcuod Posted April 29, 2020 Author Share Posted April 29, 2020 13 minutes ago, Gryffles said: Are you keeping an eye on the classifieds here? There’s an Ayre power amp for sale atm. Older model but high quality No offense to the guy selling it, but what turned me off it was someone sending me this post. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gabehcuod Posted April 29, 2020 Author Share Posted April 29, 2020 7 minutes ago, mbz said: Think I'm on a tighter budget... Here is a list I lifted off Audiokarma McIntosh MC-2300, Mark Levinson ML-2, Krell KSA-100(?) Accuphase P-300 Sansui AU 7700 Marantz 1060b Sansui BA-5000 Pioneer Spec-2 Accuphase P300 Marantz 510M Kenwood 700M Yamaha M-2 Yamaha MX-10000 Yamaha MX-2000 Yamaha B-6 Yamaha B-2 Perreaux PMF 2150B Sansui BA 5000 Marantz 170DC (For the non switching DC lush sound and amazing looks) Perreaux PMF 3150 (For the clinically accurate and immensely powerful FET) Pioneer SPEC 2: What a machine. Power/Pre Combinations: Sansui BA-2000 with a CA-3000 preamp Marantz 140 with a 3200 pre Rotel RB-980BX still holds the over-looked award. Sansui BA-5000 They are mostly high end and priced accordingly. Maybe something like Yamaha MX-1000, MX-1, M-70 Harman Kardon Citation upto 19 I'd stay away from the vintage FET amps like Yam B-2. Also the amp must have a speaker protection circuit (which can be retro fitted), As always best to listen then decide... Hey Mate, Thanks for that list. I'll keep an eye out on hifishark for those. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gryffles Posted April 29, 2020 Share Posted April 29, 2020 1 minute ago, Gabehcuod said: No offense to the guy selling it, but what turned me off it was someone sending me this post. Oh haha. Of course they are going to say that. Geez the new model is always so much better than the old 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Martykt Posted April 29, 2020 Share Posted April 29, 2020 (edited) 29 minutes ago, Gabehcuod said: Whenever I would ask people in the chat groups they would mock me for my very low budget. If they're mocking you over your budget then they're just a bunch of ****s and not worth listening to !! @Gryffles is spot on, a higher quality second hand amp is probably your best bet. Ayre does have a good reputation, might be worth a look. Edited April 29, 2020 by Martykt 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gryffles Posted April 29, 2020 Share Posted April 29, 2020 @Gabehcuod I’m not trying to sell the Ayre or it’s virtues to you btw. It was just an example 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JC. Posted April 29, 2020 Share Posted April 29, 2020 Your setup looks good as it is. Whats the power amp not doing for you ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steffen Posted April 29, 2020 Share Posted April 29, 2020 People will usually tell you that any system upgrade should start with the speakers. They’re wrong, I reckon any system upgrade should start with the room But joking aside, if you’re truly in love with your speakers and you reckon your room sounds fine, there are great amplifier buys to be had under $1000. I went through a stage when my beloved amplifier of 20+ years finally bit the dust, and I thought there was nothing out there within my means that could ever make my speakers sing like that again. But after taking the (small money) punt on an oldish Rotel integrated amp, and working my way up from small to medium to large Rotel power amps over the following months, I’m now in a happy place again. The 15-20 y.o. RB-991/1080 model is an affordable (about half a grand), deliciously overspec’ed, exquisitely measuring and well-made from prime components solution for me. It will drive virtually any speaker with ease and authority. I don’t know how it compares to more expensive amps factory-wrapped in audio-sommelier jargon, and I have no need to find out, because right now it is about the strongest link in my system, and the one least in need of upgrade. You could also join the merry-go-round of hype, hope, disappointment and back to hype, and sample all the big names that form the basic vocabulary of audio forums. As long as you stick to 2nd-hand gear (like from the SNA classifieds) you’ll be fine and won’t risk much money. 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bunno77 Posted April 29, 2020 Share Posted April 29, 2020 $1,500 can get you a lot of amp, especially on here and looks like you have some great gear already. Be patient and demo as much as you can 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gabehcuod Posted April 29, 2020 Author Share Posted April 29, 2020 11 minutes ago, JC. said: Your setup looks good as it is. Whats the power amp not doing for you ? I really just want better vocal clarity, more emotion. That's the main thing. The system is great but I strongly feel it gets much much better and I want a small taste of that. I mainly listen to 50s/60s Jazz and blues so a warm sweet sound is kinda what I've been dreaming of. 40 minutes ago, Gryffles said: @Gabehcuod I’m not trying to sell the Ayre or it’s virtues to you btw. It was just an example Sorry mate, didn't mean it that way, I just was put off by that comment. I made a lot of audio mistakes when I started the hobby two years ago, so I have audio PTSD. I'll look into it more, thanks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steffen Posted April 29, 2020 Share Posted April 29, 2020 3 minutes ago, Gabehcuod said: I really just want better vocal clarity, more emotion. That's the main thing. The system is great but I strongly feel it gets much much better and I want a small taste of that. I mainly listen to 50s/60s Jazz and blues so a warm sweet sound is kinda what I've been dreaming of. From my personal experience, I don’t think a change of amplifier will give you that. The biggest potential for tuning the tonality of a system lies (and I hate to repeat myself) in the room itself. A few 50mm sheets of CSR Martini or Autex (or commercially available panels if you have the money), placed right against the wall in the appropriate spots, will tame the shrill presence range and make all the difference to how warm and sweet your system will sound, without affecting the bass. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bryansamui Posted April 29, 2020 Share Posted April 29, 2020 19 minutes ago, Steffen said: People will usually tell you that any system upgrade should start with the speakers. They’re wrong, I reckon any system upgrade should start with the room But joking aside, if you’re truly in love with your speakers and you reckon your room sounds fine, there are great amplifier buys to be had under $1000. I went through a stage when my beloved amplifier of 20+ years finally bit the dust, and I thought there was nothing out there within my means that could ever make my speakers sing like that again. But after taking the (small money) punt on an oldish Rotel integrated amp, and working my way up from small to medium to large Rotel power amps over the following months, I’m now in a happy place again. The 15-20 y.o. RB-991/1080 model is an affordable (about half a grand), deliciously overspec’ed, exquisitely measuring and well-made from prime components solution for me. It will drive virtually any speaker with ease and authority. I don’t know how it compares to more expensive amps factory-wrapped in audio-sommelier jargon, and I have no need to find out, because right now it is about the strongest link in my system, and the one least in need of upgrade. You could also join the merry-go-round of hype, hope, disappointment and back to hype, and sample all the big names that form the basic vocabulary of audio forums. As long as you stick to 2nd-hand gear (like from the SNA classifieds) you’ll be fine and won’t risk much money. Spot on (Steffen) Furthermore,with this hobby of ours, wow, does the "law of diminishing returns" kick in quick. Sometimes spend a tremendous amount of your 'hard earned' for a 2 or 3% improvement. The well heeled of course will spend whatever it takes to squeeze 1% more out of their setup... However imo, if your spending considerably less, often you are not missing on too much especially when buying preowned. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sloper Posted April 29, 2020 Share Posted April 29, 2020 Goodaye For that money you should get something that sounds very nice. Can l just point out that for some of the older stuff you will have to spend some money replaceing the electrolytic caps at least. Maybe a couple of transistors. Buying refurbished can be a problem as how for did they go. So if you are buying second hand just try and keep some cash aside for a service with a trusted tech. Good luck. regards Bruce 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
doogie44 Posted April 30, 2020 Share Posted April 30, 2020 Your loudspeaker specs: Power handling: 200 Watts Frequency range (+/- 1.5 dB): 40 – 25.000 Hz Impedance: 4-8 ohm Sensitivity (1W, 1m): 87 dB Construction: 2-way bass reflex Rec. amplifier: min. 70 Watts As members have pointed out you could in theory 'improve' your sound with a good amp upgrade and/or room treatment. Your amp has the capacity for high output and this is a good thing: The Proton D1200's output clipped at 155 watts per channel into 8 ohms, 175 watts into 4 ohms, and 350 watts into 2 ohms. I agree with other members that your system seems to be technically OK as it is. That is, your amp/speaker combination is a good electro-mechanical marriage. I do note that some suggestions on that list include a pre + power amp combination I think you're leaning toward a different amp (presumably a 'better' amp) but this depends entirely on synergy between the components. As such, if you can take your speakers to another system OR have a loan of an amp to play with in your own, you'll be well ahead of intellectual speculation. The Sansui sound is held to be a sweet one and I agree (for example). But you do need quite a few watts according to the speaker makers. When you describe the actual sound you're seeking---and the funds you have---I start thinking of valves somewhere in the chain! Your front end is digital all the way, isn't it? My own bias tells me that a more 'lush' presentation, especially for voices, might be tackled in part at the front end...with a valve preamplifier for example. Something worth borrowing and trying out in your system? Then there's this line/buffer amp ($650 new) you could insert into your system if the concept appeals: https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/1-x-McChanson-Mini-LINE-Buffer-6S4P-Amp-Transformer-Coupled-Tube-Valve-NEW/114205035899?hash=item1a97268d7b:g:YcAAAOSwWz1dGIRj Eric works in Sydney and is very helpful with suggestions. I hope I haven't disturbed your upgrading mission. There are many ways to go here, also including very good solid state, but not all are within your budget. Just my 2c worth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Janjuggler Posted April 30, 2020 Share Posted April 30, 2020 Hi @Gabehcuod In the Commercial Classifieds there is the following at Len Wallis Audio for $1000 Rotel RC-980BX Pre-amp & 2 x Power Amp Bundle JJ 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wen Posted April 30, 2020 Share Posted April 30, 2020 @Gabehcuod, reading reviews of all your gear points to the A&KKann Cube "not a subtle performer" in review from What HiFi, also said the KannSP100M was " compelling delivery, greater finesse and aptitude for conveying intricacies", what you said you wanted in you first post. All your other gear is an interesting mix but certainly exudes quality, the power amp i would see as a sleeper, the review i read was i would say more than very good. the comment on the room being a factor goes without saying, very important, i would also look at what cables you are using ( many different views about this) you need to decide yourself, good luck Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gabehcuod Posted April 30, 2020 Author Share Posted April 30, 2020 Hello All, Thanks for all the replies. My youth allowance covid suppliment just came in, so i've bumped myself up to $2k. There's a really nice pair of audiolab 8200MB but it has a SNR of 88 dB. I haven't been in the hobby long enough to know if it matters but I'm afraid of hissing in near-field. The only other possibilities I'm considering is keeping the amp if it really is that good, I'll have it serviced after COVID and upgrade to a denafrips ares 2 so i have digital inputs. 24 minutes ago, wen said: @Gabehcuod, reading reviews of all your gear points to the A&KKann Cube "not a subtle performer" in review from What HiFi, also said the KannSP100M was " compelling delivery, greater finesse and aptitude for conveying intricacies", what you said you wanted in you first post. All your other gear is an interesting mix but certainly exudes quality, the power amp i would see as a sleeper, the review i read was i would say more than very good. the comment on the room being a factor goes without saying, very important, i would also look at what cables you are using ( many different views about this) you need to decide yourself, good luck The Kann Cube is the only DAP on the market with an XLR out that lets you bypass the internal amplifier completely. Geoff at Aurealis has done the majority of my cables, I have an AQ speaker cable coming in though so I can give that a try. 16 hours ago, Steffen said: From my personal experience, I don’t think a change of amplifier will give you that. The biggest potential for tuning the tonality of a system lies (and I hate to repeat myself) in the room itself. A few 50mm sheets of CSR Martini or Autex (or commercially available panels if you have the money), placed right against the wall in the appropriate spots, will tame the shrill presence range and make all the difference to how warm and sweet your system will sound, without affecting the bass. I looked yesterday but couldn't find anywhere that sold either of those. Definitely something i need to do. I'm hesitant to get any proper panels since we'll be moving into large house in Canberra and I don't want to loose a great deal of money when moving (these things aren't reusable from what I've gathered). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ittaku Posted April 30, 2020 Share Posted April 30, 2020 Hypex NC400 monoblocks if you're into DIY, or a prebuilt NC502 stereo amplifier will blow all of those out of the water for quality and power handling. As much as it pains me to say it, March Audio probably offer the easiest way to get one of these at an affordable price. DIY option with NC400 monoblocks: https://www.diyclassd.com/product/nc400-mono-kit-complete-kit/24 Prebuilt with NC500: https://www.marchaudio.net.au/product-page/p502-500-watt-stereo-power-amplifier Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steffen Posted April 30, 2020 Share Posted April 30, 2020 46 minutes ago, Gabehcuod said: I'm hesitant to get any proper panels since we'll be moving into large house in Canberra and I don't want to loose a great deal of money when moving (these things aren't reusable from what I've gathered). Acoustic panels are certainly reusable. You need to mount them in a way that allows you to take them off the wall later, of course. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wen Posted April 30, 2020 Share Posted April 30, 2020 you can make the acoustic panels as freestanding panels like a foldable screen, can then move around room to suit and take them with you when you move Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thejt Posted April 30, 2020 Share Posted April 30, 2020 Have you considered changing the pre? I found a huge shift in character when switching my preamp. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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