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ArthurDent

Why are FWD cars so slow and boring to drive

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1 hour ago, betty boop said:

I was just trying to answer R&Rs question and couldn’t. And still haven’t seen answered. Audi A3 and 1 series and merc a series are direct competitors.

 

never mind you don’t want to answer I can’t. Closest I can think off is golf gti which can spend $50k plus on loaded up vs golf R which can also spend $50k on. Who’s going to get the gti ??

I've been out on business.

 

I'm really not getting your logic though, I still think you have R &R's question ar5e about.

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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, betty boop said:

not same car... but $ for $ commodore RWD that was replaced by the FWD opel sourced commodore . I'd take RWD aussie made one any day. and given holden has pretty much abandoned this country now given the absolute disaster a move to FWD with the move to new car was its pretty clear the market didn't think much of it either. FWD commodore have now fallen in the typical car grave yard of rental cars (appliance car) market where will fizzle away from i suspect. 

 

did you forget the reason why Holden closed manufacturing was nobody bought their RWD Commodore ?   - That was the absolute disaster, not Holden sourcing a FWD Commodore from Europe, or which now is no longer being manufactured by Opel or owned by GM.

  

Edited by metal beat

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, betty boop said:

would want to be a volvo owner i guess, i know i once mentioned volvo to my wife and she said no :D do you really want to drive a volvo she said ... this is where preferences will come in...for some neither price or performance will be the factor here. not to say they aren't popular and plenty like them....

Plus that S60 is probably fighting in the 5 series weight division. Having now owned a XC60 Volvo for over 12 months, it leaves anything else of equal $$$ at the curb as far as comfort and interior packaging/features. I suspect it's also larger than a BMW X3, better equipped and luxurious for around the same money.

 

We don't have the new S40 here yet so no direct comparison to the 3 series from Volvo at this time.

1 hour ago, betty boop said:

personally id also swing a bargain on the bmw and rather than and probably go upmarket instead for same money. bmw do great bargains

 

I've never been able to haggle ANY money off a BMW. Mustn't know the secret handshake. I got over $15k off my Volvo though, so deals can be done there too. Let's just use RRP as a comparison.

Edited by blybo

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My question was in context of another comment which mentioned that if you ignore crap RWD cars, like Commodores and Falcons, then RWD is better. So my question was around the fact of, what can you actually buy thats RWD and is a better car at the same price point as another option. So ignore body style for a moment.

 

The MX5 is always an example of a great driving car. But in Aus, that thing costs mid $40k. Would you rather have the MX5 or a GTI? or an MX5 or a Megane RS? or an MX5 or a Merc A250

 

At higher price points than commodores and falcons, yes, this becomes a bit easier. But again, under $50k, its a hard game.

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4 minutes ago, blybo said:

Plus that S60 is probably fighting in the 5 series weight division. Having now owned a S60 Volvo for over 12 months, it leaves anything else of equal $$$ at the curb as far as comfort and interior packaging/features. I suspect it's also larger than a BMW X3, better equipped and luxurious for around the same money.

 

We don't have the new S40 here yet so no direct comparison to the 3 series from Volvo at this time.

The S60 is the 3 series / C class / A4 equivalent (4.6m ish long)

the S90 (now discontinued) is the 5 series / E Class / A6 equivalent (5m ish long)

 

I don't believe they are making a new S40, that will be something under Lynx, or the Polestar 2. The XC40 was the SUV replacement on the Compact Modular Architecture which would underpin any potential S40 remake. The S60 and S90 (and the XC60/XC90) are on the SPA platform (scalable product architecture) 

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16 minutes ago, metal beat said:

 

did you forget the reason why Holden closed manufacturing was nobody bought their RWD Commodore ?   - That was the absolute disaster, not Holden sourcing a FWD Commodore from Europe, or which now is no longer being manufactured by Opel or owned by GM.

  

The only decent RWD Commodore IMHO was the last 1. I only test drove 1 as it was the only non SUV I could find at the time that would tow my van. I was shocked at how good it was, but even then all but the top spec Redline had rolly polly suspension. I tested an SV6 initially and couldn't stand how soft the suspension was on a so called sports model.

2 minutes ago, RockandorRoll said:

My question was in context of another comment which mentioned that if you ignore crap RWD cars, like Commodores and Falcons, then RWD is better. So my question was around the fact of, what can you actually buy thats RWD and is a better car at the same price point as another option. So ignore body style for a moment.

 

The MX5 is always an example of a great driving car. But in Aus, that thing costs mid $40k. Would you rather have the MX5 or a GTI? or an MX5 or a Megane RS? or an MX5 or a Merc A250

 

At higher price points than commodores and falcons, yes, this becomes a bit easier. But again, under $50k, its a hard game.

Exactly. I'd have a MX5 as a weekend car/3rd car, but how many people have that luxury? At least with the others you get a back seat, and a lot more power. If really wanting a weekend car and I had the $$$, it would be a steet legal track car like a Caterham or the others in that league.

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2 minutes ago, blybo said:

I've never been able to haggle ANY money off a BMW. Mustn't know the secret handshake. I got over $15k off my Volvo though, so deals can be done there too. Let's just use RRP as a comparison.

i am part of bmw group and dont know anyone paying list. be crazy too ! when i went into buy mine was just prior to australia day... must have been a good time to buy. I got a custom car - built to my requirement (bmw give a lot of options some paid some free) I didn't pay for any of them and was a factory order. it was actually cheaper at that time to factory order a car than buy one from stock as stock was so scarce ie it was the one with the scary sticker price ! I've had great discounts on golf ($9k ! )  similarly on a not even released merc I somehow got a bit of a discount and free servicing for 5 years. we even have had discounts on mazda 3 on release day. a honda civic with the last available in the demo ... it is about supply and demand. but there is still good margin built in cars. id always aim at 5-10-20% no matter the brand bmw or otherwise. just comes down to supply and demand.

 

6 minutes ago, RockandorRoll said:

The MX5 is always an example of a great driving car. But in Aus, that thing costs mid $40k. Would you rather have the MX5 or a GTI? or an MX5 or a Megane RS? or an MX5 or a Merc A250

before getting my current car i actually demoed mx5 - easy as we get our mazda serviced... also demoed fiat 124 when getting our fiat serviced. these are very good cars ! the fiat is actually better than the mx5 in some aspects. as much as i seriously considered, we realised we really needed 2 more seats in the back for the kids... and stuck to hatch back sized and shaped thing. a250 has been detuned because of a35. in any case we are talking AWD cars here not FWD. I took an a250 over a golf gti/golf R at one stage. today.... not sure .... golf gti and golf R are eol, new model coming. a250 is bling city and not quite car it was a35 is stratospherically up in pricing. megane RS ? I actually seriously considered that. not a very good every day car. it is hopeless without diff. and if get the model with the diff it is the track model and bone jarring as everyday. not very practical.

 

problem with comparisons like this is ... there will be aspects of cars that will appeal for many reason... drive train is only one of them. while trying to boil it down to FWD vs RWD or AWD or something is a flawed thing id suggest....just as even price as we have discussed already is impacted by a lot of things.... 

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2 minutes ago, RockandorRoll said:

The S60 is the 3 series / C class / A4 equivalent (4.6m ish long)

the S90 (now discontinued) is the 5 series / E Class / A6 equivalent (5m ish long)

 

I don't believe they are making a new S40, that will be something under Lynx, or the Polestar 2. The XC40 was the SUV replacement on the Compact Modular Architecture which would underpin any potential S40 remake. The S60 and S90 (and the XC60/XC90) are on the SPA platform (scalable product architecture) 

I'm talking more about interior space than overall size. Perhaps it is the RWD architecture of the Merc and BMW but I find them more cramped inside than the Volvo/Audi/VW's of similar $$$. I thought the new 40 series would be a hatch instead of sedan. V40 perhaps even though not a true wagon.

 

My XC60 is MASSIVE inside compared to my wife's Audi S3, feels like 2 series larger.

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Quote

Like Audi's Quattro system.

 

For the same sort of money I'd take a AWD Audi RS3 over a RWD BMW M240i any day.

 

Far superior car.

In your opinion, others beg to differ...

 

 

 

Screen Shot 2020-05-05 at 1.33.48 pm.png

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Posted (edited)
53 minutes ago, murrmax said:

 

In your opinion, others beg to differ...

 

As they're entitled to but I'll take my opinion any day.

 

Do you have a link to the article so I can read why they got it so wrong.

 

Both are performance cars and the RS3 is quicker in a straight line and around corners.

 

M240i is even slower 😉

Edited by ArthurDent

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35 minutes ago, murrmax said:

others beg to differ...

as said by journalists who don't have to pony up their own coin, and who get free access to racetracks in cars they don't have to maintain!

 

I'd take an RS3 over a M240i or even a M2 if they still exist, any day of the week and twice on Sundays.

 

I've owned 4 RWD cars, only 1 FWD surprisingly (driven heaps though) but 5 AWD cars, and it is the 5 AWD I will fondly remember.

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At the end of the day, we only can buy what we can afford to drive. Otherwise, just dream on as it costs us nothing...😉

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51 minutes ago, blybo said:

as said by journalists who don't have to pony up their own coin, and who get free access to racetracks in cars they don't have to maintain!

 

I'd take an RS3 over a M240i or even a M2 if they still exist, any day of the week and twice on Sundays.

 

I've owned 4 RWD cars, only 1 FWD surprisingly (driven heaps though) but 5 AWD cars, and it is the 5 AWD I will fondly remember.

I thought we were talking FWD cars here ... but anyways an RS3 doesn't actually exist as of now... but m2 and m240i very much still do. you can actually get cars like m240i in X drive in some markets if AWD is particular a need.... m2 is purely a rwd for those that want it ....can't see it going FWD any time soon as can't imagine an RS3 that's FWD either ? 

 

RS3 is a very nice car but as it happens i simply dont want an RS3. there was one top of our street. quiet street as it is would drive my family let alone neighbours bonkers if had one just even starting it  every morning (i often leave very early) given how loud it is .... ever heard one start up ! :D they actually banned production of it for good part of last year due to not able to meet eu environmental, it still hasn't returned to our market, expected  middle this year, goodness knows whether will actually be the case.

 

and besides the noise of thing, there is no ways id ever own something like it sends all the wrong messages. i personally prefer more the slide under radar approach let alone investing so much in a car. 

 

but I totally and absolutely understand why others might appreciate things, and what and why they do. Why so many different cars exist on the market dont they hey ? 

 

if you didn't buy what you did and i didn't what I and everyone else.... brands stop existing... but they do.... :) 

 

by all means enjoy the AWD (seems to be your particular bent) they do add traction that FWD often lack can totally understand its why cars like golf R for instance exist to go beyond what is even a very popular GTI formula and been going for years. VW been selling a ton of GTI I bet more than the AWD Golf R doesn't mean Golf R isn't a better car. people usually take one as a step up and especially since can pick up for about similar money.

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26 minutes ago, vinilink said:

At the end of the day, we only can buy what we can afford to drive. Otherwise, just dream on as it costs us nothing...😉

indeed is the case.... its also a contentment factor too ? am happy with what i have ... something planning to keep many years.... so won't  be buying something for quite some years ... but yeah still doesn't stop talking about things or dreaming for matter as you say :D 

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Back on topic, time for another clip of a slow and boring FWD car at Nurburgring. 

 

Honda Civic Type R taking the FWD record in 2017 and managing to hold it for two years with a time of 7:43.8

 

 

Clearly not as much fun as the slower BMW M2 Competition at 7:52.36 although it should be pointed out that the factory BMW M test driver Jörg Weidinger did do a 7:50 lap.

 

 

 

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Posted (edited)

It should perhaps be noted that the Honda lap caused a bit of controversy because Honda fitted a roll cage for safety (not to increase body rigidity) and then removed stuff like the rear seats, radio, etc. to compensate for the added weight of the cage.

 

The VW Golf GTI Clubsport-S which previously held the record was stock standard as delivered from the factory and how you could buy it from your local dealership.

 

Edited by ArthurDent

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20 hours ago, vinilink said:

At the end of the day, we only can buy what we can afford to drive. Otherwise, just dream on as it costs us nothing...😉

What I was getting at is would these guys buy the same car as their only, as the one they recomend in car reviews. Car reviews of sports cars like BMW M cars etc, are often skewed by track performance where it is much safer to hang the rear end out etc without having to pay for new tyres at days end...

 

I simply believe a performance AWD is a better real world and all weather car when quite frankly, the opportunities to enjoy these toys are pretty limited. My last car, the V8 RWD was great fun in a straight line or flowing corners but as soon as it started raining I had to change my driving style. Not so in an AWD unless pushing near the limit.

 

20 hours ago, betty boop said:

would drive my family let alone neighbours bonkers if had one just even starting it  every morning (i often leave very early) given how loud it is .... ever heard one start up ! 

You should have heard my Commodore start in the garage! Back in the day I had a 3" inch exhaust on my WRX. I love the sound of the RS3 and have been trying to convince my wife to put a louder muffler on her S3. I don't know about the RS3 but some premium sports cars have discrete starting modes. My Commodore had a bi-modal exhaust but it didn't really make start up any quieter, but it did at low revs. I removed the fuse so it was louder all the time, but not really loud. We are all different but I believe a performance car should sound like a performance car. Something I'll miss when electric is the norm. I have owned sleepers too, like the Spec B Liberty.

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40 minutes ago, blybo said:

What I was getting at is would these guys buy the same car as their only, as the one they recomend in car reviews. Car reviews of sports cars like BMW M cars etc, are often skewed by track performance where it is much safer to hang the rear end out etc without having to pay for new tyres at days end...

who cares ? I dont, just like looking at nurburgring times with cars modified and setup to do it is total utter irrelevance to me. more important is what is relevant to me for my use :) my tyre use has been just fine on RWD car I have.... my first FWD car I was looking at new front tyres in 15k :D it was very chuckable though :D as a peugeot 306 :D . my last fwd car on other hand ... tyres full set cost less than one tyre on our family car... and got 60k from them so who cares again, its all context. take any car  to track , depending on the day and how drive, one set will likely not even last day ! 

 

40 minutes ago, blybo said:

I simply believe a performance AWD is a better real world and all weather car when quite frankly, the opportunities to enjoy these toys are pretty limited. My last car, the V8 RWD was great fun in a straight line or flowing corners but as soon as it started raining I had to change my driving style. Not so in an AWD unless pushing near the limit

you are welcome to your thoughts here in your context, but not something totally share. I believe all styles have their limitations. FWD has the most - FOR ME ! , which is what this thread is all about, and something acknowledged even by self on why moved to AWD. ... keeping in mind different cars have different limits too. my last FWD could wring it neck and lift and best get is a little chirp once all day... another FWD both hot hatches struggle with traction... clearly more power than traction in that case.... have had no dramas on my RWD have but it does have LSD and that's certainly traction wise been better so far than hot hatch FWD cars have owned and what this thread is clearly about. 

 

in all conditions have taken cars, mine(and i do get around !) and family and have owned across all sorts dont particularly need AWD myself, but hey they do sell and people wanting them totally welcome to them

 

40 minutes ago, blybo said:

You should have heard my Commodore start in the garage! Back in the day I had a 3" inch exhaust on my WRX. I love the sound of the RS3 and have been trying to convince my wife to put a louder muffler on her S3. I don't know about the RS3 but some premium sports cars have discrete starting modes. My Commodore had a bi-modal exhaust but it didn't really make start up any quieter, but it did at low revs. I removed the fuse so it was louder all the time, but not really loud. We are all different but I believe a performance car should sound like a performance car. Something I'll miss when electric is the norm. I have owned sleepers too, like the Spec B Liberty.

unfortunately that is the RS3 it starts rich, most cars do. my merc had a lovely cackly start, mine is about loudest i want and why i wouldn't want a different exhaust from factory one i have, just dont need the added volume of noise. its a bimodal exhaust and be quite quiet in eco to bit more burbly at normal, to sport and sport + for full experience. Quite happy with as is. but hey plenty do even mod car i have and there are even factory options and plenty 3rd party speicifaclly for car ... so certainly options there if need.  Again here welcome to thoughts on how loud cars need to be, am sure we are all different in this case :) I remember a guy giving me a lift in his camry once we are talking a early 90s camry and  he was quite proud saying see can't hear the engine :) each to own ... :D

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Posted (edited)
Quote

And on the subject of BMW's which seem to get talked about a lot in this thread on FWD cars.

 

Even BMW the long term stalwarts of RWD are making FWD and AWD cars.

 

Says it all doesn't it.

 

Not really, just catering to the masses.. at least they're not a whitegood...yet.

 

 

 

Re clubsport S, specially designed for the purpose of doing 1 lap of the berg ring all the same pretty impressive...at least it's manual but good luck getting one of those there's only 400 of them, good luck getting a manual fullstop.. and at the price you might as well get a real 2 seater sports car ...or an awesome 20 year old one;

 

You don’t need to have the latest, greatest, most expensive supercar technology to go fast, even on the Nürburgring. You just need lightness, some willingness to tinker and big ol’ huevos of steel.

 

 

Let’s ride along with it on the Nürburgring’s Nordschleife, where it laid down a ridiculously quick 7:16.927 lap time.

 

 

 

Edited by murrmax

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Posted (edited)

Impressive to watch, even more so due to the traffic but it's a purpose built race car unlike all the production cars so far featured in this thread.

Edited by ArthurDent

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6 hours ago, blybo said:

I love the sound of the RS3 and have been trying to convince my wife to put a louder muffler on her S3. I don't know about the RS3 but some premium sports cars have discrete starting modes. My Commodore had a bi-modal exhaust but it didn't really make start up any quieter, but it did at low revs. I removed the fuse so it was louder all the time, but not really loud. We are all different but I believe a performance car should sound like a performance car. Something I'll miss when electric is the norm. I have owned sleepers too, like the Spec B Liberty.

The RS3 may have a performance exhaust that doesn't mirror stock volumes. Miltek, for example (and a zorst of choice for Audi's) are very much on the loud side. Another aspect may be programmable driver preferences with the bimodal exhaust, and it may be left in Performance which is not neighbour friendly. I'm not sure with the RS3, but I know the RS5 hits loud mode on start up then settles into quiet mode after about thirty seconds. Again, not neighbourly.

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18 hours ago, DRC said:

The RS3 may have a performance exhaust that doesn't mirror stock volumes. Miltek, for example (and a zorst of choice for Audi's) are very much on the loud side. Another aspect may be programmable driver preferences with the bimodal exhaust, and it may be left in Performance which is not neighbour friendly. I'm not sure with the RS3, but I know the RS5 hits loud mode on start up then settles into quiet mode after about thirty seconds. Again, not neighbourly.

I've never understood the whole loud exhaust obsession for street cars.

 

On the car forums I frequent the most often asked question from people who have just bought a brand new car apart from wheels maybe, is what kind of exhaust can I put on it.

 

And not for performance, they just want the snap, crackle and pop and of course DSG farts.

 

And don't get me started on turbo muffler deletes and blow off valves for even more noise.

 

You've got a fast car which you're probably going to drive fast and you want to attract even more attention by making it obnoxiously loud.

 

Just don't get it.

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in respect to great handling cars I expect the new Fiesta ST, regardless of it being FWD,  will perform very strongly in Motor's 2020 Bang for your buck performance car comparison.

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if a car feels too slow and boring, then chances are you're not driving it hard enough. and that's for all layouts.

having said that, i'm partial to fwd cars since i learnt from one. nothing gets the heart racing at 9k rpm over a bend. even if it's at 20km/hr :P.

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Quote

I've never understood the whole loud exhaust obsession for street cars.

I agree, it's a kids thing but there is something about a sweet NA V8 engine at 8500 rpm...music kinda

 

 

 

 

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