"90% of a Turntables sound comes from its cartridge''

[EV Cali]

"90% of a Turntables sound comes from its cartridge"

Came across this video the other day.

Once you get past the above statement, one of the most interesting observations , for me, is regarding the vertical tracking height, adjustment on the Technics SL1200.

As mentioned in the video, even set at its lowest point, with any of the carts I own, including DJ carts, the arm is still pointing down towards the platter, .

What is the point of having adjustment if you still having to pack up the cart with shims and a thicker mat to get the arm level?

I had wondered if it was just me and something I was doing but since this guy mentions this SL1200 issue I assume it is not just a problem for me.

Perhaps DJ's don't worry about  the arm being level.

 

 

Edited April 28, 2020 by EV Cali

[betty boop]

am in the camp cart and phone stage is very important combination to get right... the needs of table are to present record... and arm to present the cart....

 

of course the job of those two things though arm and deck ... go without saying..... I have gone from a mid level deck to something few steps up with a better arm and couldn't believe with the same cart and phono stage the difference made... so table/deck and arm certainly make a difference.

 

however the character and quality of sound is very much down to the cart and phono stage. really go hand in hand.....

 

21 minutes ago, EV Cali said:

adjustment on the Technics SL1200.

As mentioned in the video, even set at its lowest point, with any of the carts I own, including DJ carts, the arm is still pointing down towards the platter, .

What is the point of having adjustment if you still having to pack up the cart with shims and a thicker mat to get the arm level?

don't folk always use thicker mats on the technics for this reason ? 

[aussievintage]

16 minutes ago, betty boop said:

don't folk always use thicker mats on the technics for this reason ? 

 

I have the opposite problem on a Techincs SL-150.  The SME-3009 arm sits too low and has to be adjusted up. This is with the proper Technics mounting plate for that arm.  So maybe it's only with their own arms?

[betty boop]

8 minutes ago, aussievintage said:

 

I have the opposite problem on a Techincs SL-150.  The SME-3009 arm sits too low and has to be adjusted up. This is with the proper Technics mounting plate for that arm.  So maybe it's only with their own arms?

Fitting other arms to deck is always going to present other challenges

[aussievintage]

2 minutes ago, betty boop said:

Fitting other arms to deck is always going to present other challenges

 

It's a bit different in this case.  The SL-150 is the armless version of the SL-1500, you have to supply your own arm, and the adaptor  for the SME arm comes from Technics I believe. 

[muon*]

Cartridge and phono stage, could be argued the phono stage more so.

 

Edit: IMO

Edited April 28, 2020 by muon*

[awty]

I couldnt even bother turning the sound on, anyone who puts their turntables on a glass bench or a wooden floor isnt worth listening to.

[EV Cali]

4 hours ago, betty boop said:

don't folk always use thicker mats on the technics for this reason ? 

I can see this being needed when an arm has no adjustment but one of the selling points for this TT is the fact that it has adjustment, so why is all the adjustment in the wrong direction. 

[SL1200]

I am certain that Turntable and Cart are more important than Tonearm or Phono Stage.   I disagree that the influence of the cart is 90%.  Transduces (Microphones, Cartridges, and Speakers) by their nature have to have a great deal of importance. 

The turntable has to cope with (1) Wow and Flutter) and (2) Vibration.  A turntable just has to be protected from the vibrations.  It is usually not done.  Vibration comes from many sources; Ambient sound in the room, footfall,  close passing heavy vehicles, the turntable bearing, reflections from the stylus going into the vinyl and getting back into the stylus, resonance in the tonearm or turntable material, resonance from the platter (esp metal platters), the sound coming from the speakers themselves.  So I am inclined to think the TT and Cart are approx equal.  

[cheekyboy]

Oh, what the hell. With regard to SQ and swings in performance I would rank in order, cartridge, tonearm, phono stage and turntable. In initial consideration in putting a good vinyl rig together, I would rank in order, turntable, tonearm, cartridge and phono stage.

 

There are many reasonably priced turntables that you could throw a blanket over for what you would be looking for in a turntable. The biggest swings in performance are going to come from the phono cartridge and tonearm and then to a lesser degree, the phono stage. I would not agree with the sound of the cartridge being 90% of how a rig performs, if indeed that is actually what the attached video is saying, because I didn’t bother watching it.

 

Cheers,

 

Keith

 

 

Edited April 29, 2020 by cheekyboy

[analog brother]

the recording and pressing of the record is the most important.

a **** record will sound just that on even the best six-figure rigs.

[analog brother]

imo;

recording

pressing

stage

cable

cart

arm

rack

table

in that order

 

Edited April 29, 2020 by analog brother

[analog brother]

but they are all very important, hence why analog obsessiveness can become a very expensive sub-branch.

some will even add such things as record cleaners and static-free sleeves to the equation 

[cheekyboy]

33 minutes ago, analog brother said:

imo;

recording

pressing

stage

cable

cart

arm

rack

table

in that order

 

I admit I haven’t watched the video in the OP’s post, but I thought reading through this thread that the statement was that the cartridge was responsible for 90% of the sound, which in itself is a plainly stupid statement anyway.

 

I think the actual recording and how it is pressed is a given in this and would be a constant, regardless of the rig it was being played on. As far as the possible swings is SQ/performance, I could not put the phono stage [assume that is what you mean and not the stage the artist is standing on] and the interconnect cable ahead of what a phono cartridge brings in terms of SQ. The rest is probably subjective (which this whole ranking of bits is anyway) but I would probably put the turntable ahead of a rack, although when done well, a racking system can make an enormous difference in how a vinyl rig ultimately performs.

 

Like I said earlier,’ oh, what the hell!’ I thought it would come to this.

 

Cheers,

 

Keith

Edited April 29, 2020 by cheekyboy

[aussievintage]

2 minutes ago, cheekyboy said:

I think the actual recording and how it is pressed is a given in this and would be a constant

 

I think it has to be in order for this discussion to make sense.

 

2 minutes ago, cheekyboy said:

I could not put the phono stage  and the interconnect cable ahead of what a phono cartridge brings in terms of SQ.

Totally agree.  The phono stage can only have that much importance if funny things are going on, like cart loading problems.  Like the record, correct loading, that is the same in all other comparisons, should also be a given.  As for cable, other than lowering noise with better cable, any reasonable cable work to deliver full SQ, unless it stuffs up the loading, but that should be covered by the above given.

[cheekyboy]

9 minutes ago, aussievintage said:

 

I think it has to be in order for this discussion to make sense.

 

Totally agree.  The phono stage can only have that much importance if funny things are going on, like cart loading problems.  Like the record, correct loading, that is the same in all other comparisons, should also be a given.  As for cable, other than lowering noise with better cable, any reasonable cable work to deliver full SQ, unless it stuffs up the loading, but that should be covered by the above given.

I think the whole discussion doesn’t make much sense, but not having watched the video, I can see that there must be some ranking of how the record was produced and then pressed, but I still say this is going to be a given across all vinyl rigs and thus will be a constant, regardless of what deck, arm, cart or phono preamp you’re comparing.

 

Cheers,

 

Keith

Edited April 29, 2020 by cheekyboy

[analog brother]

agreed, it's all subjective.

i think the phonostage is important when most of the cool carts are low output

[Warren Jones]

Ok I'll add my 2c

 

I didn't bother watching the video, but I'm not in the cartridge is the most important, yes you can get an improvement by changing the cartridge. But the cartridge will only perform as well as the arm allows. I'm in the tonearm as THE most important component, then the table and phono stage.

 

I have a Technics SP10 and EPA100.  The EPA100 has VTA on the fly and dynamic damping to adjust it to the cartridges compliance. With a Stanton 881s installed it smashed my Rega RP8/Apheta2 and LinnLP12/Ittok/Troika.

 

I changed the arm to a linear with very short stiff carriage and the sound improved significantly. Bass was improved as was detail. The reason is the linear arm with its 55mm pivot to stylus and extremely stiff carriage has a main bending mode close to 20kHz. This puts all the tonearm resonance out of the audio band.

 

https://www.hi-fiworld.co.uk/index.php/vinyl-lp/70-tests/104-arm-tests.html

 

Any resonance in the tonearm (or any other part of the system) will be modulated to the audio signal.

[cheekyboy]

35 minutes ago, Warren Jones said:

Ok I'll add my 2c

 

I didn't bother watching the video, but I'm not in the cartridge is the most important, yes you can get an improvement by changing the cartridge. But the cartridge will only perform as well as the arm allows. I'm in the tonearm as THE most important component, then the table and phono stage.

 

I have a Technics SP10 and EPA100.  The EPA100 has VTA on the fly and dynamic damping to adjust it to the cartridges compliance. With a Stanton 881s installed it smashed my Rega RP8/Apheta2 and LinnLP12/Ittok/Troika.

 

I changed the arm to a linear with very short stiff carriage and the sound improved significantly. Bass was improved as was detail. The reason is the linear arm with its 55mm pivot to stylus and extremely stiff carriage has a main bending mode close to 20kHz. This puts all the tonearm resonance out of the audio band.

 

https://www.hi-fiworld.co.uk/index.php/vinyl-lp/70-tests/104-arm-tests.html

 

Any resonance in the tonearm (or any other part of the system) will be modulated to the audio signal.

 

On 15/04/2020 at 7:02 PM, cheekyboy said:

I would also now look at the recipient of a hi end vinyl rig and if that person was a complete novice, my best advise would be to have that rig professionally set up. A beautifully resolving and delightful hi end vinyl rig in the hands of a complete klutz, will only end badly.

 

Having said that, synergy in a vinyl rig is very important and there are many very good and reasonably priced decks out there and all will do more than 95% of what you’re going to require. That is not to say the last 5% is not important, but you will pay for it!
 

There are many phono preamps available sub $2k that will punch well above that price point and hold their own with highly over priced phono preamps costing many times that amount.

 

The components you really should look closely at and to do the research on is the cartridge and the tonearm, because these two components are where you’ll get the  biggest swings in performance.

 

Cheers Keith

Above is what I initially had to say in another thread here and frankly that thread and the question posed did actually make more sense. As I have said, I haven’t watched the video, so there is probably some things in that video that are relevant to this thread and the question it poses, but I haven’t changed my mind as to what I said back on the 15th and so glad to leave it at that. Phew!!

 

Cheers,

 

Keith

Edited April 29, 2020 by cheekyboy

[EV Cali]

1 hour ago, cheekyboy said:

 

Above is what I initially had to say in another thread here and frankly that thread and the question posed did actually make more sense. As I have said, I haven’t watched the video, so there is probably some things in that video that are relevant to this thread and the question it poses, but I haven’t changed my mind as to what I said back on the 15th and so glad to leave it at that. Phew!!

 

Cheers,

 

Keith

You make four posts regarding a video you have not watched !!!!!!!

[cheekyboy]

1 minute ago, EV Cali said:

You make four posts regarding a video you have not watched !!!!!!!

Yep, so please enlighten me.............what have I missed?

 

Cheers Keith

[Chill3]

23 minutes ago, cheekyboy said:

Yep, so please enlighten me.............what have I missed?

 

Cheers Keith

You missed waisting some of your life, the guy knows nothing about audio

[muon*]

4 x cheap tables?

 

That's what it looks like in the vid, so how can he determine what the table or arm contributes if he is only comparing cheapies

What's the phono stage, I dread to think

 

Yeah, I haven't watched it either, lasted I think 45 seconds

[Wimbo]

On 28/04/2020 at 11:46 AM, betty boop said:

 

however the character and quality of sound is very much down to the cart and phono stage. really go hand in hand.....

Both of these coloration's you mention have very fine parameters. Neither will be noticeable on an average turntable.Damn, doesnt matter how great the character and quality of sound is if the pitch is  and dynamics are f..cked.

Edited April 29, 2020 by Wimbo
Too many f..ked's.

[Wimbo]

Never watched it. Fools like that make me sad and I hate sad. Not going there again.