USB audio is not just bit but diminishing return are very unreasonable in digital front end ?

[ikhuong]

13 hours ago, rmpfyf said:

Amusing: a jitter thread descends to ASR and faith in its measurements despite ASR's jitter measurements being the poorest understood of its admin, and most difficult to evaluate with the test equipment used.

 

Absolute as you make it.

Audio Science Review guys stared with great ideas and somehow is helpful such as spotting out the crappy ifi power adapter generated lots of noise in output phase of Dacs. However, their admin Amir has continuously downplayed other company products without comprehensive evaluation such as listening test, AB test, etc.
If you are a good and neutral reviewer,  you should only show data, proof and leave open conclusions to readers. He criticized and downplayed any product he doesn’t like that I feel there is economic reason rather than non profit, who knows.

he also advertised too much about his background engineer or chief of designer something from Microsoft where we all know careless about hiend audio and provided scrappy sound products/design from Windows OS. By all means, they have no real foundation or demonstrated visible success in hiend audio industry.

 

their measurements are not a comprehensive explanation of all aspects in audio science, human still knows very little and needs to keep discover new things. The measure device is machine too and designed by a group of people. Measurements cannot spot out timing, sound characters or explain why this silver sounds different ly to coppers, why soundstage is vary

 

there are lots of genius designers such as Rob Watts, Paul McGowan who are popular on social media/forums and honest/ acknowledged what they don’t know or cannot explain by science. Those people demonstrated success and have real products that changed the industry. 

so if we follow ASR’s advice, I think  we need to double or triple checks their opinions

 

Edited May 9, 2020 by ikhuong

[kukynas]

On 08/05/2020 at 1:25 PM, rmpfyf said:

 

Because I'm a scientist confident in what I know enough not to need argue it with people that don't, because I'm a student of life keen to learn that's similarly put off by entrenched views, because I'm grateful for some of the work on that site - which has helped inform some purchases of mine - and because I'd rather have a chuckle at a potential pointless endeavour than waste time indulging in it. 

 

Amir certainly isn't bad, he knows a great deal and his time comes extremely free. As per most of us mortals (whether armed with an audio analyser or otherwise) his knowledge is not absolute. I'm thankful for what we get; plenty of review sites with better resources could well take note. 

 

But no, insofar as jitter beyond noting that USB provides an inherently better interface than traditional sources, the understanding of jitter put forth on ASR (particularly as it relates to audibility) is somewhat incomplete.

 

You're quite right to point out Auralic's marketing BS (it is indeed) though I'd personally be reluctant to invoke ASR as a truth source for jitter audibility.

 

you right, his knowledge isn't absolute, nobody's is but I think he knows enough about jitter, 10 years old debate

https://whatsbestforum.com/threads/audible-jitter-amirm-vs-ethan-winer.1151/

about him if you didn't know

https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/a-bit-about-your-host.1906/

 

[Guest rmpfyf]

7 minutes ago, kukynas said:

 

you right, his knowledge isn't absolute, nobody's is but I think he knows enough about jitter, 10 years old debate

https://whatsbestforum.com/threads/audible-jitter-amirm-vs-ethan-winer.1151/

about him if you didn't know

https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/a-bit-about-your-host.1906/

 

 

Yep... Read all that before. Didn't say doesn't know anything, happy in my differing opinions.

 

As are many others. Isn't a criticism.

[Ittaku]

17 minutes ago, kukynas said:

You're right, his knowledge isn't absolute, nobody's is but I think he knows enough about jitter; 10 year old debate:

https://whatsbestforum.com/threads/audible-jitter-amirm-vs-ethan-winer.1151/

They obviously valued both of their opinions highly on that forum too.

 

[kukynas]

26 minutes ago, Ittaku said:

They obviously valued both of their opinions highly on that forum too.

 

yep, they obviously value everyone who agrees with them and those who don't...

[Ittaku]

6 minutes ago, kukynas said:

yep, they obviously value everyone who agrees with them and those who don't...

Sounds like ASR.

[Addicted to music]

2 hours ago, kukynas said:

 

you right, his knowledge isn't absolute, nobody's is but I think he knows enough about jitter, 10 years old debate

https://whatsbestforum.com/threads/audible-jitter-amirm-vs-ethan-winer.1151/

about him if you didn't know

https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/a-bit-about-your-host.1906/

 

But then again no one on this site is either....
 

why voice your differences or opinion on several threads on SNA or any forum and make certain  statements without backing it up? 
 

There’s a difference of voicing your opinion with no will or data and voicing your opinion with data to back it up.  

 

you’re definitely no scientist or engineer if you you don’t back your argument with supporting data, and that goes with everything you do in life.  That’s how I get the job done at work; find a fix,  provide the data for the fix,  get another tech With the same problem  to implement the fix,  document the success and prove proof....    without data and proof no one is going to believe you.

[Guest rmpfyf]

26 minutes ago, Addicted to music said:

But then again no one on this site is either....
 

why voice your differences or opinion on several threads on SNA or any forum and make certain  statements without backing it up? 
 

There’s a difference of voicing your opinion with no will or data and voicing your opinion with data to back it up.  

 

you’re definitely no scientist or engineer if you you don’t back your argument with supporting data, and that goes with everything you do in life.  That’s how I get the job done at work; find a fix,  provide the data for the fix,  get another tech With the same problem  to implement the fix,  document the success and prove proof....    without data and proof no one is going to believe you.

 

Might suggest going easy on these notions? 

 

Having bad data or a poor understanding of any data is arguably worse than presenting none. Nor is there anything wrong with voicing opinions on a forum - that's what forums are for: an exchange of opinions. It gets less fun when we try to make each other's opinions absolutes. 

 

I have zero interest in writing a thesis/posting data/etc on this forum, not least as I don't log on to continue my day job. I'm not alone. That others might not doesn't have me doubt their credentials. 

 

Believe what you want; if you enjoy the music, so be it - you're winning. 

[kukynas]

29 minutes ago, Addicted to music said:

But then again no one on this site is either....
 

why voice your differences or opinion on several threads on SNA or any forum and make certain  statements without backing it up? 
 

There’s a difference of voicing your opinion with no will or data and voicing your opinion with data to back it up.  

 

you’re definitely no scientist or engineer if you you don’t back your argument with supporting data, and that goes with everything you do in life.  That’s how I get the job done at work; find a fix,  provide the data for the fix,  get another tech With the same problem  to implement the fix,  document the success and prove proof....    without data and proof no one is going to believe you.

I’m not sure what you are asking me to prove, took the artickle from the net, pasted it here and provided comment which proofs that Amir knows enough about jitter, if anyone’s willing to disprove it I have no issue with that but than I would expect he/she would provide info, or I’m missing something?

[kukynas]

Btw. I don’t think we need to be proving anything here, either we believe what we see, read or hear or we don’t and unless it gets to heavy argumentative  where we got to prove something we are adult enough to keep it under civilized discussion 
that’s at least how I see/feel it 

 

[Ittaku]

The most fascinating part of that whole jitter debate with Amir was him saying he used to own an $8K Mark Levinson DAC.

[sir sanders zingmore]

8 minutes ago, Ittaku said:

The most fascinating part of that whole jitter debate with Amir was him saying he used to own an $8K Mark Levinson DAC.

No longer in use apparently 

 

https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/mark-levinson-no-360s-dac-review.10842/

 

"FYI now that I pulled it out of my system, I will be putting a Matrix Audio DAC in its place"

[Ittaku]

3 minutes ago, sir sanders zingmore said:

No longer in use apparently 

 

https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/mark-levinson-no-360s-dac-review.10842/

 

"FYI now that I pulled it out of my system, I will be putting a Matrix Audio DAC in its place"

Yes I know, but it's still fascinating given his bent towards numbers based DACs today... well I guess that evolved as he measured more, and explains how he ended up with a Matrix Audio DAC since they measure the best (I don't have anything against MA gear, I think it's great and own an MA USB to SPDIF converter.)

[Guest rmpfyf]

42 minutes ago, Ittaku said:

Yes I know, but it's still fascinating given his bent towards numbers based DACs today... well I guess that evolved as he measured more, and explains how he ended up with a Matrix Audio DAC since they measure the best (I don't have anything against MA gear, I think it's great and own an MA USB to SPDIF converter.)

 

Thankfully he's not a marriage counsellor:

 

"FYI now that I pulled it out of my system, I will be putting a Matrix Audio DAC in its place. Thank you my old friend for two decades of service. You were expensive to marry to but good mate to have had.”

 

[firedog]

Quote

Quote from JA in Innuos review - measurements:

If I left the room then came back again, I don't think I could tell you whether the PS Audio DAC was receiving data via USB from the Statement or via Ethernet or USB from the Nucleus +.

Was he blind testing? Not clear. In any case, read between the lines - the differences were very minor at best. Sounds to me like he was trying to hear a difference - and did. But even he admits (above) it was vanishingly small. 
 

The measurements basically show that with a competent DAC like the Mytek there's zero difference. And even with the inexpensive DragonFly Red, it looks to me like the very small measured differences are below the threshold of  audiability. 

 

The same team just published a review of a Wolf "audiophile" server ($10K US) with similar results. 

 

Conclusion: "The Emperor has new clothes", as it were.  Get a good DAC, and in a blind test you won't be able to consistently pick out the difference between these expensive "audiophile" devices and any other well made PC/renderer. Don't waste thousands of dollars for no actual SQ benefit.

 

JA  clearly realizes this is true, but either can't (magazine policy) or won't say it explicitly. 

 

Of course, if you want the company support and like the casework - cosmetics of the expensive stuff - go for it. Just don't claim is gives you superior SQ. 

 

 

 

Edited May 12, 2020 by firedog

[Guest rmpfyf]

1 hour ago, firedog said:

Was he blind testing? Not clear. In any case, read between the lines - the differences were very minor at best. Sounds to me like he was trying to hear a difference - and did. But even he admits (above) it was vanishingly small. 
 

The measurements basically show that with a competent DAC like the Mytek there's zero difference. And even with the inexpensive DragonFly Red, it looks to me like the very small measured differences are below the threshold of  audiability. 

 

The same team just published a review of a Wolf "audiophile" server ($10K US) with similar results. 

 

Conclusion: "The Emperor has new clothes", as it were.  Get a good DAC, and in a blind test you won't be able to consistently pick out the difference between these expensive "audiophile" devices and any other well made PC/renderer. Don't waste thousands of dollars for no actual SQ benefit.

 

JA  clearly realizes this is true, but either can't (magazine policy) or won't say it explicitly. 

 

Of course, if you want the company support and like the casework - cosmetics of the expensive stuff - go for it. Just don't claim is gives you superior SQ. 

 

 

 

 

That's an exceptionally poor test.

[firedog]

23 hours ago, rmpfyf said:

 

That's an exceptionally poor test.

What are you trying to say?

[Guest rmpfyf]

1 minute ago, firedog said:

What are you trying to say?

 

Just that. It's an exceptionally poor way to test. Audible recall isn't absolute - this is well known - walking in and out of the room contaminates the baseline enough to make relative comparisons especially pointless.

 

Nor is what's workable on one system a panacea for all systems... for what PS Audio charges for a DirectStream I'd hope they put a relevant amount of money into isolation/reclocking/etc downstream of whatever interfaces the customer provides. 

 

I'd agree that you'd need to be certifiable or having pockets deep enough to wish to cover all bases whether independently audible or otherwise if you're in the market for an Innuos Statement, but just in that much there's certainly a market for what they do. 

 

Plenty of cases where making better of a USB interface will give audible results. That a $25k computer doesn't rock someone's world on a $8k DAC packing enough of an EMI signature internally to obliterate whatever jitter characteristic is incoming off whatever interface... on top of noise introduced my losing the baseline condition (in walking out of the room) in an uncharacterised state prior to assessing a step change... it's an exceptionally poor experimental design. It's scientific as in the third grader next door could design as much, and has a bright future in leading audiophile rags starting circa the second the current pandemic passes if it's acceptable journalism. You'd be expecting to discover something fundamentally new with respect to audibility if seeking a result above the sheer amount of noise inherent in that experiment.

 

Not a slight on you @firedog. JA can do (much) better. 

[Steffen]

47 minutes ago, rmpfyf said:

for what PS Audio charges for a DirectStream I'd hope they put a relevant amount of money into isolation/reclocking/etc downstream of whatever interfaces the customer provides.

No, for the money they’re charging you should expect a substantial and obvious improvement. There are a 101 ways of spending this sort of money and getting a real, unmistakable upgrade to one’s system.

 

Just because there is a market for it doesn’t mean it’s real. A lot people will spend any dollar figure you care to name just for the illusion that they’re in the “inner circle”.

Edited May 13, 2020 by Steffen
tpyos

[firedog]

42 minutes ago, rmpfyf said:

 

Just that. It's an exceptionally poor way to test. Audible recall isn't absolute - this is well known - walking in and out of the room contaminates the baseline enough to make relative comparisons especially pointless.

 

Nor is what's workable on one system a panacea for all systems... for what PS Audio charges for a DirectStream I'd hope they put a relevant amount of money into isolation/reclocking/etc downstream of whatever interfaces the customer provides. 

 

I'd agree that you'd need to be certifiable or having pockets deep enough to wish to cover all bases whether independently audible or otherwise if you're in the market for an Innuos Statement, but just in that much there's certainly a market for what they do. 

 

Plenty of cases where making better of a USB interface will give audible results. That a $25k computer doesn't rock someone's world on a $8k DAC packing enough of an EMI signature internally to obliterate whatever jitter characteristic is incoming off whatever interface... on top of noise introduced my losing the baseline condition (in walking out of the room) in an uncharacterised state prior to assessing a step change... it's an exceptionally poor experimental design. It's scientific as in the third grader next door could design as much, and has a bright future in leading audiophile rags starting circa the second the current pandemic passes if it's acceptable journalism. You'd be expecting to discover something fundamentally new with respect to audibility if seeking a result above the sheer amount of noise inherent in that experiment.

 

Not a slight on you @firedog. JA can do (much) better. 

The overall point is that neither his listening nor his measurements show any real difference between 5 figure devices  and his standard desktop computing equipment when used with a good modern DAC. Yet, he can't actually write this in the magazine, it seems.

[ikhuong]

18 minutes ago, firedog said:

The overall point is that neither his listening nor his measurements show any real difference between 5 figure devices  and his standard desktop computing equipment when used with a good modern DAC. Yet, he can't actually write this in the magazine, it seems.

Agree this is not a poor test by any mean, John Arkinson knows about a thing or two about reviewing hiend components, better that 99,99% of us in any forum worldwide.

As a founder of Stereophile, he has his reputation to keep and leave open conclusion to readers, he did not explicitly downplay any company product or tell straight to readers that 5-figure device should make him "wow" every AB test.

 

In conclusion, Innuos's flagship product is not good enough to charge that much money.

 

 

Edited May 13, 2020 by ikhuong

[Guest rmpfyf]

42 minutes ago, Steffen said:

No, for the money they’re charging you should expect a substantial and obvious improvement. There are a 101 ways of spending this sort of money and getting a real, unmistakable upgrade to one’s system.

 

Just because there is a market for it doesn’t mean it’s real. A lot people will spend any dollar figure you care to name just for the illusion that they’re in the “inner circle”.

 

Sure... And that's a market. As written.

 

PS Audio should absolutely do better. I'm not a customer.... For good reasons.

[Guest rmpfyf]

42 minutes ago, firedog said:

The overall point is that neither his listening nor his measurements show any real difference between 5 figure devices  and his standard desktop computing equipment when used with a good modern DAC. Yet, he can't actually write this in the magazine, it seems.

 

His measurements aren't resolute enough and his test is crap. Doubt it? Submit it for any reasonable journal of audiology and see how far it gets.

 

Don't pretend it's science when it's not.

 

PA Audio does made modern DACs. 'Good' is another story - with many dimensions. They're not universally 'good'. There's caveats for this test. Clear ones.

[Guest rmpfyf]

29 minutes ago, ikhuong said:

In conclusion, Innuos's flagship product is not good enough to charge that much money.

 

Sure it is. People are buying it.

 

'Good enough' is subjective, and not a rationale for marketing.

[firedog]

1 hour ago, rmpfyf said:

 

His measurements aren't resolute enough and his test is crap. Doubt it? Submit it for any reasonable journal of audiology and see how far it gets.

 

Don't pretend it's science when it's not.

 

PA Audio does made modern DACs. 'Good' is another story - with many dimensions. They're not universally 'good'. There's caveats for this test. Clear ones.

What, in your opinion, should he be doing with his measurements?