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Will my Yamaha Receiver drive Dynaudio Emit M20’s?


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There seems to be lots of info out there that says Dynaudio’s need lots of current to get the best out of them. 
 

I’m a beginner and I’m still struggling to come to terms with what the things on my spec sheet mean. 
 

I have a Yamaha RX-V3073. How will this drive the Emit M20’s? Underwhelming, average or excellently


The rated power output stated on the spec sheet is 150W (8ohms, 0.06% THD), I understand this is different to current...?
 

I would greatly appreciate some guidance. 

 

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I started on the Yamaha AVR path, then got more into music so started upgrading and now don't even use an AVR for movies but I'm odd ball for the movie side.    It will get you started. Howe

Sorry to say that is marketing BS from many companies,  The total power consumption is a better indicator. With 490W (from manual) over 9 channels at 60% efficiency = 33W per channel.  Unfortunately,

There may be a small increase if you are driving only 2 channels, but AVRs, often built to a budget, do not have the smarts to re-allocate power. And given you like to push things, the Yamaha will lik

Dynaudio's 'reputation' for power and current needy was garnered from their more expensive higher end speaker range. Their more affordable Excite range is designed to be driven with receivers in mind, so I won't be surprised if the Emit range is similar in thinking. Looking at their specs the Emit m20 has a sensitive of 86dB which is quite average, i.e. you wouldn't need a very powerful amp to make them play loud. Their impedance is 4 Ohms which means some parts of the music may be more difficult to drive and draws on more current. So that is something to watch out for. Check if your receiver has a tap setting (check the back of the unit) to select its output specifically for 4 Ohms speakers (or for speakers with less than 8 Ohms). That is the correct setting you should be using. 

 

This is just my opinion. Ultimately it just depend on how loud you wish to play your music, and what genre of music. If you mainly play at a moderate to medium level, with music that are not overly demanding, then you should be fine. If you can hear distortions in your music as you turn the volume up, then I suggests you back off by turning it down. You won't want to 'clip' your amp and possibly cause damage to your speakers.

 

There are plenty of people in this community who can add much more to the above.

 

Edited by LHC
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1 hour ago, Lashes said:

The rated power output stated on the spec sheet is 150W (8ohms, 0.06% THD), I understand this is different to current...?

Sorry to say that is marketing BS from many companies,  The total power consumption is a better indicator. With 490W (from manual) over 9 channels at 60% efficiency = 33W per channel.  Unfortunately, many AVRs are under powered and it is better to get multi channel power amps where they often provide proper numbers for multi channels simultaneously driven.

 

What is your mix of movies vs music?  Are you after 1 box only or can you accommodate a few?  AVRs are not the best for music.  If you are serious about music, get a stereo integrated which will have much better analog stages. 

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3 hours ago, LHC said:

Check if your receiver has a tap setting (check the back of the unit) to select its output specifically for 4 Ohms speakers (or for speakers with less than 8 Ohms). That is the correct setting you should be using. 

Yes, there is a setting in a setup menu to change the receiver to suit 4 Ohm speakers and I’m confident to do that. 
 

3 hours ago, Snoopy8 said:

Sorry to say that is marketing BS from many companies,  The total power consumption is a better indicator. With 490W (from manual) over 9 channels at 60% efficiency = 33W per channel. 

@Snoopy8 I never thought to look at the total consumption and I can see that figure in the manual. I can also track your calculations. I’m not going to be using the 9 channels so does this change the calculations?

 

This is early days for me so I’ll be starting with a 2 channel system with bookshelves that in time will grow to a 2.1 and then a 3.1 beyond that.

 

4 hours ago, Snoopy8 said:

What is your mix of movies vs music?  Are you after 1 box only or can you accommodate a few?

The mix will probably be more music but I can only accomodate 1 box. I’m going to stick with my current receiver for now. 
 

Thanks @DrTobiasFunke, I rang one of the Dynaudio retailers in Sydney today and he seemed to suggest my receiver would have more than enough power. Just wanted to see if there were other opinions from people who aren’t selling (which obviously there are), it’s all food for thought. 

 

Thanks @Bunno77 for you input also

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@Lashes I rekon the Yamaha will have enough power.

The main problem with A/V receivers is the power supply. The Highend Yamaha Receivers have better power supplies then most. If you arnt using all the amps you should be fine.

Also, there will be a switch to bypass all the DSP crap. Make sure you use that. Otherwise, higher noise floor.

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Thanks @Wimbo, excuse my ignorance but what exactly do you mean by “if you aren’t using all the amps”?


I thought I had a decent receiver so that’s encouraging regarding the power supply. 

 

And yes, there is a “Pure Direct” button for the bypass

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41 minutes ago, Lashes said:

Thanks @Wimbo, excuse my ignorance but what exactly do you mean by “if you aren’t using all the amps”?


I thought I had a decent receiver so that’s encouraging regarding the power supply. 

 

And yes, there is a “Pure Direct” button for the bypass

Not using the 9 amps. You are only using the two for the time being.

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4 minutes ago, allthumbs said:

How loud do you listen?

I’d like to push it when I have the opportunity 

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9 hours ago, Lashes said:

 

@Snoopy8 I never thought to look at the total consumption and I can see that figure in the manual. I can also track your calculations. I’m not going to be using the 9 channels so does this change the calculations?

 

This is early days for me so I’ll be starting with a 2 channel system with bookshelves that in time will grow to a 2.1 and then a 3.1 beyond that.

 

The mix will probably be more music but I can only accomodate 1 box. I’m going to stick with my current receiver for now. 

There may be a small increase if you are driving only 2 channels, but AVRs, often built to a budget, do not have the smarts to re-allocate power. And given you like to push things, the Yamaha will likely not have enough power.  

 

You are not doing justice to music using an AVR. The DAC and analog stages do not cut it. The pure direct mode does not overcome the issues with music.

 

You will be way ahead in sound quality in getting a second hand integrated amp and a streamer DAC.  At best, the AVR can be a temporary solution while you save. 

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4 hours ago, Snoopy8 said:

There may be a small increase if you are driving only 2 channels, but AVRs, often built to a budget, do not have the smarts to re-allocate power. And given you like to push things, the Yamaha will likely not have enough power.  

 

You are not doing justice to music using an AVR. The DAC and analog stages do not cut it. The pure direct mode does not overcome the issues with music.

 

You will be way ahead in sound quality in getting a second hand integrated amp and a streamer DAC.  At best, the AVR can be a temporary solution while you save. 

Dont agree IMX. I'm not a surround sound person but I have seen what these amps can do if they are built and designed well.

(The pure direct mode does not overcome the issues with music.) This is too vague.(but AVRs, often built to a budget,) So is this.

 @Lashes If you want to push the Amp a bit more, put a dedicated 30 amp circuit in. Can use it for better amps in the future.

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34 minutes ago, Wimbo said:

Dont agree IMX. I'm not a surround sound person but I have seen what these amps can do if they are built and designed well.

If you go up to the high end and get an Arcam, I will agree with you about being built and designed well. Arcam (& NAD) publish power numbers when multiple channels are driven simultaneously.

 

At the entry and mid level, there is a constant battle with budget.  If anything, AVRs are cheaper now and the power suffers. They resort to marketing BS using 1 CH driven at silly THD numbers to then claim how powerful they are.

 

When was the last time you saw an AVR that was well built and designed well and how much was it?  I am on my 3rd mid tier AVR but do not use it for music. My NAD produces 60W when all 7 channels driven and that is considered good for an AVR.

2 hours ago, Wimbo said:

(The pure direct mode does not overcome the issues with music.) This is too vague.(but AVRs, often built to a budget,) So is this.

AVRs have lots of processing to do, so a Pure Direct will bypass much of this. But with limited power and so so analog stages, an AVR using a Pure Direct mode will still not be as good at music compared with an integrated amp.  Even high end AVRs will compromise music.

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I started on the Yamaha AVR path, then got more into music so started upgrading and now don't even use an AVR for movies but I'm odd ball for the movie side. 

 

It will get you started. However AVRs are the Swiss Army knife of amps. Do everything, but none oof the tools are as good as proper tools. However they are the best at being a Swiss Army Knife, do everything and multiple tools for a comparatively low cost. 

 

Relax, enjoy it for now until you don't so much. If the audio bug takes you the previous sentence will apply to most components, speakers, the room and probably particular recordings or recording studios after a while. It can be never ending.

 

I left AVRs behind when I wanted better clarity and dynamics. Ended up with separate DAC, Preamp, power amp for the front and ran 2.0 for a few years. And when I could afford went to additional individual amps for multi channel movies with processing done elsewhere. 

 

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2 hours ago, Wimbo said:

If you want to push the Amp a bit more, put a dedicated 30 amp circuit in. Can use it for better amps in the future.

@Wimbo does this mean use the preouts on the receiver to add in another amplifier?

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Thanks for all the input. 
 

I think I should provide a little more context. Initially I was trying to find a soundbar that would do a decent job at music and would fit with the decor of a multipurpose lounge/living room. I knew this would be a compromise but after listening to various examples the compromise was far to great! 
 

Even spending close to 1k on a soundbar didn’t get me near what I was content with. I had the receiver mentioned above doing nothing and decided I was much more likely to get better music out of it and some 1k bookshelves. Hence the bookshelf search and the interest in the Emit M20’s. 
 

In my auditioning I’ve heard systems that far exceed my budget now and probably forevermore. I have gotten immense enjoyment from these experiences.
 

But I’m on a scale, and really I’m looking at the soundbar being kinda at the bottom. Correct me if I’m wrong but my AVR with some bookshelves, maybe even the Emit M20’s, will be a big step up in music reproduction. Could it be better, absolutely! As @DrSK mentioned, I’ll enjoy it and then maybe some of my circumstances might change and I might not be able to resist being able to do some upgrades in the future. 
 

So, some people think my AVR will be fine for the Emit M20’s and some people think not so much. I haven’t auditioned the Emit M20’s yet so there’s a chance they won’t be my thing.

 

So I guess here is the bottom line, am I going to get better bang for my buck by choosing an 8ohm speaker that’s easier to drive or my AVR (RX-V3073) is powerful enough to just choose the bookshelf that I think sounds best?

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15 minutes ago, Lashes said:

 

 

 

 

15 minutes ago, Lashes said:

So I guess here is the bottom line, am I going to get better bang for my buck by choosing an 8ohm speaker that’s easier to drive or my AVR (RX-V3073) is powerful enough to just choose the bookshelf that I think sounds best?

Just remember to a certain extent you'll be hearing the AVR as much as the speakers.

 

Looking at their specs and budget I'd give Mike a call at Lenehan Audio on the off chance someone has traded in some ML1s and he's looking to sell them secondhand. Depending on which series and spec they can go for under $2k.

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It is more than just whether the AVR can power the speakers. But please educate yourself before making a decision.

 

Go to a hi-fi retailer and listen for yourself, using the same input and same speakers, an AVR costing $1,500 and an integrated amp with streaming DAC costing the same. If you can live with the AVR, so be it. 

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1 hour ago, Lashes said:

I haven’t auditioned the Emit M20’s yet so there’s a chance they won’t be my thing.

It would not be wise to purchase speakers blind without audition. If you have a spare AVR, consider taking it with you to your local hi-fi retailer and ask to use it to audition the M20. That way you get a much better idea of what the combination may sound like. Take your CD or music files with you as well. While there you could ask the sales rep about the pairing. 

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3 hours ago, Lashes said:

Thanks for the ML1 tip @DrSK but those colours will not pass the wife test...

They are usually in piano black. Although they come in any colour and Mike can repaint them anyway since he makes them. 

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Something like these two to start off with.

The Paradigms are great speakers for the money and will go loud. (I use to demo and sell them back in the day).Will also work fine with your Yamaha.

The NAD's 80 watts rms per channel will be more then enough to drive the speakers loud, plus it has a lot of the Mod cons for the digital future.

The speakers look big, but really do not take up much more space then the Bookshelf speakers on stands.

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Posted (edited)
20 hours ago, LHC said:

It would not be wise to purchase speakers blind without audition.

Thanks @LHC, I won't be purchasing without auditioning.

 

It seems like the way forward for me is to take the AVR in-store, hook up the speakers and see how I feel/think.

 

@Wimbo are you suggesting adding that NAD to my AVR or replacing the AVR with the NAD? Thanks for the speaker suggestion, I'm not going to be going for anything that big. My bookshelves won't be on stands, they'll be on an entertainment unit (and yes...close to the wall...). And those Paradigm's won't pass the wife decor test.

 

That said, I've been trying to put the knowledge shared in this thread into a feasible scenario for me. I'm guessing I would be lucky to sell off my AVR for around $500. There is a Bluesound Powernode 2i that seems to go for around $700 second hand. You guys have said that the Yamaha specs are BS, the specs of the Powernode are Power Output: HybridDigital™ Amplifier, 60 Watts x2 into 8ohms. These specs are way lower than my AVR but are you experts saying that the output from this would be bigger than my AVR? Bigger and cleaner? seems crazy...

Edited by Lashes
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20 minutes ago, Lashes said:

There is a Bluesound Powernode 2i that seems to go for around $700 second hand. You guys have said that the Yamaha specs are BS, the specs of the Powernode are Power Output: HybridDigital™ Amplifier, 60 Watts x2 into 8ohms. These specs are way lower than my AVR but are you experts saying that the output from this would be bigger than my AVR? Bigger and cleaner? seems crazy...

Yes, it will have more power than your AVR!  It only has to power 2 channels. Your AvR can power 9 channels.  

 

But please focus on the sound quality first which is more important than any power discussion. Compare AVR vs Power node or something similar. 

Edited by Snoopy8
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Posted (edited)

Ok @Snoopy8, so I get your point on sound quality but surely power is part of the sound quality equation. If the speakers require a certain power to sound good then whatever is connected needs to be at or above that certain level otherwise the quality will be rubbish. I've even read that under-powering a speaker can damage it.

 

Applying the efficiency formula you applied earlier in the thread means the Powernode will have 36 watts per channel. This is pretty close to the 33 watts per channel on my AVR calculation. Have the comments above been more about the sound quality of the AVR, cause earlier on in the thread it seemed to me like some people were saying the AVR wouldn't have the power to drive the Emit M20's?

 

As you mentioned earlier, if I can live with AVR sound, so be it.

 

You also mentioned I should do a comparison with the AVR and an integrated amp, is your estimation that I would see a noticeable and significant improvement with the Powernode?

Edited by Lashes
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@Lashes Unlike AVRs, the stereo numbers are true numbers. There is a standard for the declaration for stereo but not multi channel. The AVR manufacturers chose to interpret that standatd, each in their own way, for multi channel units to maximise its marketing potential (i.e. BS!).

 

I am keen for you to learn about the difference in music sound quality between an AVR (jack of many trades) and a stereo system (does music only).  Some people find the AVR acceptable (because of budget, space, mainly casual listening etc).  If you fall into this category, then the next step is to get a best possible AVR with the largest true power.

 

But if you prefer the sound of a stereo integrated, then this whole thread becomes redundant.

 

I have said far too much in this thread already and irritated a few people. 

Please go away (said nicely!)  and listen... 😀 

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The specs given by Yamaha for the RX-V3073 are pretty clear 

 

Rated Output Power (20Hz-20kHz, 2ch driven) 150W (8ohms, 0.06% THD)

 

Those for the Powernode are somewhat vague

 

60 Watts x 2 into 8 ohms

 

i.e no frequency range or distortion level given.

 

The Yamaha will definitely deliver significantly more power in stereo mode and plenty to drive Dynaudio Emit 20.

 

 

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Posted (edited)

I think this thread has run its course for the moment. My plan from here is to take my AVR to my auditions. 

Thank you to the people who contributed and made me aware of some things to look into further.

 

I will endeavour to update this thread once I’ve gotten set up. In case it helps someone in the future. 

Edited by Lashes
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I was in a similar position a while ago trying to power my dynaudio bookshelfS from a yamaha receiver (rookie error) At high levels my receiver would go into meltdown and shutoff simply because its not designed to push a 4 ohm load all day long. Thats not to say that it sounded terrible at low-med levels. I would probably jump on an 6-8 ohm speaker to get started simply because you already have the receiver and then probably plan for a better setup as you interests evolve. Those paradigms mentioned above would get you up and running quite nicely. The dynaudios are gonna be a little too thirsty for your receiver and any capable salesman should probably outline that to you. 

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16 minutes ago, $piro said:

I was in a similar position a while ago trying to power my dynaudio bookshelfS from a yamaha receiver (rookie error) At high levels my receiver would go into meltdown and shutoff simply because its not designed to push a 4 ohm load all day long. Thats not to say that it sounded terrible at low-med levels. I would probably jump on an 6-8 ohm speaker to get started simply because you already have the receiver and then probably plan for a better setup as you interests evolve. Those paradigms mentioned above would get you up and running quite nicely. The dynaudios are gonna be a little too thirsty for your receiver and any capable salesman should probably outline that to you. 

Were they emits? 

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They are dm 2/8.  Have an 8 inch driver that can push hard down low and am giving them lots of stick via an emotiva power amp. They sound big and clean for an entry level dynaudio

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5 minutes ago, $piro said:

They are dm 2/8.  Have an 8 inch driver that can push hard down low and am giving them lots of stick via an emotiva power amp. They sound big and clean for an entry level dynaudio

So no. As Roland said the Emits had effort put in to work better with AVRs and aren't as much of a difficult load as the DM series this shows that AVRs just don't do a good job even with entry level bookshelves and even the likes of emotiva can be an upgrade. 

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Would it be safe to say that he can power them but not satisy them ?

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47 minutes ago, $piro said:

Would it be safe to say that he can power them but not satisy them ?

yeah like my first post. I ran Emits on Denon, Marantz, Yamaha and others daily. If it were only a surround HT system going for then fine but music seems to be a priority

There is a lot more to popular name, modern AVRs that are detriment to music performance than just power ratings. Power ratings are the last thing to worry about

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Look a used pair of Emit M20 is available in the Classifieds. Unfortunately located in Brisbane though. 

 

 

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Posted (edited)

Thanks @LHC I did some auditioning on the weekend in store. One of the options was the Emit M20’s.

 

i discussed how my avr would go. I was advised that it would be fine for the emits but would struggle with any of the other higher model Dynaudios. 
 

That’s probably the end of this thread for me. However, I thought someone who finds this thread later might be interested in my perspective of the auditions. That’s next. 
 

I listened to the kef Ls50, richter Merlin s6 and the Dynaudio Emit M20’s. To my ears, the Dynaudios were my least favourite. (It probably didn’t help that on one of my auditioning tracks the first sound brought out a vibration in the driver.) I was told it had been a floor model for quite sometime and may have been dropped. That aside, wasn’t the sound I was looking for. 
 

Quite liked the LS50’s, but that aluminium midrange driver was a little in your face for me.
 

So my pick was the Richter Merlin S6. For me it had a bigger sound stage than the other two. It even provided an element of instrumentation separation. The tones it produced seem to match what I’m looking for in a speaker. In the price range I’m looking at, I think these might be hard to beat!

Edited by Lashes
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@Lashes you original query inspired me to do further research and down a few blind alleys.  I now have definitive data to backup what I will say.

Your Yamaha will deliver to specs regarding stereo power.  My views have changed since I dug up Test Bench data from Sound & Vision who did their own independent measuring.

 

Please note that while power itself is enough, your Yamaha has basic analog stages and a multi channel DAC.   AVRs are not enough for my music requirements but you may be happy with it.

 

Happy listening.

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Thanks @Snoopy8, I posted in your other thread before I realised you’d posted here... well done on the researching. I think if people want to track this thread in the future they will benefit by looking at your thread as well. 

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