$piro Posted March 16, 2020 Author Share Posted March 16, 2020 On 15/03/2020 at 6:57 PM, almikel said: Phase 2 should be acquiring a measurement rig (mike, mike stand, laptop, REW software (free)) Maybe i can make this phase one and do a before-and-after once the curtains are in. I will acquire this REW software and I will also acquire the curtains. And i thank all members of the LOWY institute (hi-fi branch) for their sensible recommendations. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TerryO Posted March 16, 2020 Share Posted March 16, 2020 (edited) On 08/03/2020 at 3:30 AM, Peter the Greek said: We had a space like that in our last house.....have you got another room you can use for listening? In my experience you'll need to cover a good portion of wall or ceiling in acoustic planel. It'll be very expensive, even DIY, given the scale..... If that is the only room you have for audio then you have little choice than to try and I mean try and fix it, but as Peter has said it will get very expensive and my bet is chances are after spending lots of money you will end up with a room that still isn’t good for hi-fi and looks very compromised at best. If you do have any other choice then I’d be listening to Peter. Personally I would first up before spending one dollar on curtains or acoustic panels etc be paying someone who really knows what they are doing to come long and measure your room and advise you on what it will take to fix it, then you can make an informed decision, which chances are will save you money and give you a better outcome. cheers, Terry Edited March 16, 2020 by TerryO Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Peter the Greek Posted March 17, 2020 Share Posted March 17, 2020 7 hours ago, TerryO said: Personally I would first up before spending one dollar on curtains or acoustic panels etc be paying someone who really knows what they are doing to come long and measure your room and advise you on what it will take to fix it, then you can make an informed decision, which chances are will save you money and give you a better outcome. I agree.....I'm by no means an expert here. But I hate seeing people waste money, which I'm pretty sure the curtains will be....well at least in achieving an acoustic objective. These modern rooms are really hard to deal with. We managed it in our last house with a variety of printed panels, a sisal rug, and fabric furnishings. But it wasn't perfect. Funnily, I sold those panels to another member last year and it made a night and day difference to his room - different dimensions and layout, but similarly large. The issue I'd have with that room is that it wouldn't be a nice acoustic environment just to be in and talk to someone, let along listen to music or watch a movie. Paying some coin for some advice I think is a prudent approach. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
$piro Posted March 17, 2020 Author Share Posted March 17, 2020 I made an enquiry today over the phone and spoke to a professional who deals mainly in commercial acoustics and he told me to cover the ceiling in acoustic panels with an nrc of 0.8 or higher and its job done. I mentioned the curtains and he said that some improvements can be made through this as well but emphasised the ceiling. I asked him what his fees were and he said $1200 for a site visit and but suggested i put that money towards treating the ceiling. What a nice bloke ! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Peter the Greek Posted March 18, 2020 Share Posted March 18, 2020 16 hours ago, $piro said: cover the ceiling in acoustic panels LOL, of course that'll work. But lets consider the cost - 50mm of Ultratel is say $35/sqm. That excludes fabric, the panels or track system, labour......$30k later, you could have built and treated a nice little sound proof, treated granny flat out the back Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
almikel Posted March 20, 2020 Share Posted March 20, 2020 On 17/03/2020 at 8:15 PM, $piro said: he told me to cover the ceiling in acoustic panels with an nrc of 0.8 or higher and its job done. On 18/03/2020 at 1:15 PM, Peter the Greek said: But lets consider the cost - 50mm of Ultratel is say $35/sqm. That excludes fabric, the panels or track system, labour......$30k later, you could have built and treated a nice little sound proof, treated granny flat out the back agreed - and I don't think it would do much in the bass end On 17/03/2020 at 8:15 PM, $piro said: spoke to a professional who deals mainly in commercial acoustics Sometimes advice over the phone requires qualification - these guys are busy and 9 out of 10 calls are tyre kickers not money spenders - and you can't get good answers/guidance on a phone call.. ...also "commercial" acoustics covers a broad range of spaces, with many spaces requiring improved "speech intelligibility" but not good music reproduction - especially not good bass reproduction... ...covering the ceiling would likely assist speech intelligibility...if that was an issue to begin with in your room...it is a major issue in many restaurants with too many reflective surfaces and vocals just bounce around - the ceiling treatment described would help a lot... ...but I can guarantee that... On 17/03/2020 at 8:15 PM, $piro said: cover the ceiling in acoustic panels with an nrc of 0.8 or higher and its job done ...will not achieve the reverb/decay times in the bottom end that would be the target of a "good" room. For reference here is a standard for a "good" room http://www.acousticfrontiers.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/10/acoustic_measurement_standards.pdf Since you're in Melbourne, it would be worth seeking guidance from @Paul Spencer, a member on this forum who does acoustic consulting, and can provide another opinion. I have no commercial connection with Paul, but I have purchased speakers and speaker designs from Paul, and have great respect for his knowledge and skills regarding achieving great "in room" sound for typical home listening spaces. cheers Mike 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joz Posted March 21, 2020 Share Posted March 21, 2020 On 10/03/2020 at 10:19 PM, mpearce38 said: if you have the $$$ functional and stylish https://www.artnovion.com/categories/2-residential-hi-fi I ended up chasing up some pricing on these. Pricing with the new Oz $$ it scared the crap out of me. perhaps will revisit the idea when things get back to normal Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
betty boop Posted March 21, 2020 Share Posted March 21, 2020 11 minutes ago, joz said: I ended up chasing up some pricing on these. @joz check in with @Geoff@HeyNow Hi-Fi I saw something similar when popped by his showroom, and he is quite local to you, so can see in person. this shot below in a recent thread of his shows the stuff on the back wall... 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mpearce38 Posted March 22, 2020 Share Posted March 22, 2020 Other option would be pirmacoustic They do panels in white or paintable finish https://www.soundseasy.com.au/products/primacoustic-paintables-24x48x2?_pos=16&_sid=7a5d4a4b3&_ss=r Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HeyNow Hi-Fi Posted March 22, 2020 Share Posted March 22, 2020 4 hours ago, betty boop said: @joz check in with @Geoff@HeyNow Hi-Fi I saw something similar when popped by his showroom, and he is quite local to you, so can see in person. this shot below in a recent thread of his shows the stuff on the back wall... Hi @joz I’m very happy to help you with your room acoustics. I can help with a full sweep of your room with full graphs showing all nodes and standing waves, alternatively help and advice on single pieces such as the one you posted. I still have competitive pricing on certain artnovion pieces and collections. The pirmacoustics concept shown above are totally different to what you have pictured and I can help you sort out the differences. The hybrid diffuser @betty boop has shown in my room does an amazing job of capturing the vocals in the soundstage. I have my version of the pirmacoustics - custom made in 60 different colors to suit your room and needs. Please Pm me for more details on any of this. Thanks for the tag @betty boop kind regards Geoff 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joz Posted March 22, 2020 Share Posted March 22, 2020 @Geoff@HeyNow Hi-Fi will pop down for a visit, but it’ll be a while before my speakers are back in situ. Atm I have Primaccoustic Broadway panels around the room but like the artnovian ones pictured, well except the cost. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Red Spade Audio Posted March 22, 2020 Share Posted March 22, 2020 On 20/03/2020 at 11:08 PM, almikel said: Since you're in Melbourne, it would be worth seeking guidance from @Paul Spencer, a member on this forum who does acoustic consulting, and can provide another opinion. Thanks for the mention Mike. Quote Sometimes advice over the phone requires qualification - these guys are busy and 9 out of 10 calls are tyre kickers not money spenders - and you can't get good answers/guidance on a phone call.. This may surprise you but I'd say of those who call on the phone about acoustics, very few are tyre kickers. On 17/03/2020 at 8:15 PM, $piro said: I made an enquiry today over the phone and spoke to a professional who deals mainly in commercial acoustics and he told me to cover the ceiling in acoustic panels with an nrc of 0.8 or higher and its job done. I measured a room recently where the entire ceiling had been treated. In this particular case, it was actually too much, resulting in a room that measured more like a studio, but this does show that you can do a lot to tame overall reverberation levels in a room with just the ceiling. Very often the ceiling is neglected in room treatment. It's odd in one sense that so many people consider carpet important, yet don't think at all about the huge untreated ceiling above. The downside with ceiling treatments is that it adds installation challenges. The upside is that you have a very large area that you can treat, usually with fewer obstacles. Going back to your first post where you mentioned speakers, here is something people that often happens in these types of rooms: the speakers often are very close to the wall, either side of a large entertainment cabinet. If you can move the speakers out from the wall behind them, and sometimes the couch a little further forward, this adjusts the ratio of direct to reflected sound. This is a ratio that you can adjust with both treatment and speaker placement. Yes, I know this involves SAF challenges but in rooms like this there is always a conversation in which we try to find the sweet spot. Very often in these rooms you will end up with a more reflective room that the ideal. In many cases we can get a significant improvement with this one adjustment alone. In some cases, you may find you can get a similar result that may have taken twice as much treatment. With this in mind, isn't it worth seeing how far you can push your luck with speaker placement? Now keeping this in mind, you might also think about having speakers that are not too easily toppled over! Before you make any decisions about how to treat a room like this, you need to consider: 1. What specific problems are you aiming to solve? Hint: it's not as simple as reducing reflections. 2. What bass challenges do you have? Some problems you can solve with trial and error - it's not ideal to do it that way but with bass, you really can't. 3. Aesthetics - do you want panels that blend, like say white panels on the ceiling and upper parts of the walls. Do you want panels that could pass as decoration? In a room like this, you might think about both. In some rooms, you can set up bass capable floorstanders and get great bass. In others, there is no feasible speaker placement that will work well for bass. This is where a specific number of subs in specific locations can become the only effective tool to make great bass possible. Here is an example: The black line is how some very large floorstanders measured in a room very much like this one. You can see the speakers still have some low bass output but in terms of tonal balance, the room is out of whack. The blue curve shows the best sub position I found in this room, with EQ applied - yes I know, that's cheating. The sub is tiny compared to the floorstanders but is has the advantage of being able to go in the ideal bass position. This solves the bass problem, but you may also notice, the low midrange is missing. What this suggests is that very often these kinds of acoustic challenges require solutions that go beyond traditional approaches. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HeyNow Hi-Fi Posted March 22, 2020 Share Posted March 22, 2020 2 hours ago, joz said: @Geoff@HeyNow Hi-Fi will pop down for a visit, but it’ll be a while before my speakers are back in situ. Atm I have Primaccoustic Broadway panels around the room but like the artnovian ones pictured, well except the cost. Thank Jos. Please contact me before you pop in. Looking forward to it. Regards Geoff 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
almikel Posted March 24, 2020 Share Posted March 24, 2020 On 22/03/2020 at 7:28 AM, joz said: I ended up chasing up some pricing on these. Pricing with the new Oz $$ it scared the crap out of me. perhaps will revisit the idea when things get back to normal those look awesome but what are they designed to do? The website calls them a hybrid absorber/diffuser ( https://www.artnovion.com/product-categories/6-absorption/products/317-avalon-flow ) and has some absorption stats "Absorption Range: 250 Hz to 5000 Hz" but no diffusion data... They look way too thin to absorb down to 250Hz though, and their graph shows their absorption is way down by 250Hz They look fantastic...and likely provide some diffusion, or at least scattering...and a new take on a hybrid surface, like a cross between a 1D QRD and a 1D BAD panel. I'd be interested to see if there's maths behind it or it's just a creation of interior decorating? Mike 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mellowman Posted March 27, 2020 Share Posted March 27, 2020 its a very high and large space, you could pretty much build in a mezzanine level effectively lowering the ceiling which would reduce the echo substantially and give you a small upstairs area. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
$piro Posted June 16, 2020 Author Share Posted June 16, 2020 Just to keep you guys updated and to thank you for all your great advice. I have since moved my gear to the man cave and with great results. Sound quality has improved drastically and i am now really enjoying my setup. We also ended up installing about 18sqm of curtain (not the acoustic type) and out of curiosity i put my 2 -channel gear back for a before 'n' after and i still find it disappointing. So the man cave wins buy a country mile and i have free reign to play with speaker placement and cheap diy acoustic panels. Neighbours officially hate me now... 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lemarquis Posted June 19, 2020 Share Posted June 19, 2020 On 16/06/2020 at 6:29 PM, $piro said: I have since moved my gear to the man cave and with great results. Sound quality has improved drastically and i am now really enjoying my setup. Who knew? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kanef Posted June 30, 2020 Share Posted June 30, 2020 A great room. However absorption curtains may be useful further down the track. Suggest that you do phase 2 first. what is the longest dimension in the room? Happy to assist in getting some data together. Just need to use your smartphone. I can email a wav file with some sweeps that will interrogate the room. We would need to make Audio measurements in a number of points in the room. since I retired I’ve developed some Passive absorption technology that may be of use. cheers Kanef 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
muon* Posted July 1, 2020 Share Posted July 1, 2020 (edited) Definitely need thicker than 50mm for lower frequencies. I know see you moved to the man cave, but in case It's of interest.........If needing panels or bass traps, CSR Martini absorb XHD comes in 50mm think and can be doubled up, or they might still make the 100mm stuff, in black it doesn't need covering and is not floppy so easier install. More affordable than most solutions and good stuff! https://www.bradfordinsulation.com.au/commercial-and-industrial-insulation/walls/martini-acoustic-polyester-products/martini-absorb#current These guys are in Melbourne and their bass traps and panels are very interesting. https://soundacoustics.com.au/ Edited July 1, 2020 by muon* 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davewantsmoore Posted July 1, 2020 Share Posted July 1, 2020 On 07/03/2020 at 10:34 PM, $piro said: My question is will this curtain have a significant dampening effect? No, if it's lightweight..... otherwise, a little bit. Your room contains a low amont of absorbent things (either on the walls, or in the room). The windows alone aren't really the problem per se. On 07/03/2020 at 10:34 PM, $piro said: Would it be advised that i upgrade to some floor standers once the acoustics have been sorted ? Given the size of the room. The dynaudio's can play loud and clean but i am looking for some more low end. I would even consider a sub also. Either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lemarquis Posted July 2, 2020 Share Posted July 2, 2020 13 hours ago, muon* said: These guys are in Melbourne and their bass traps and panels are very interesting. https://soundacoustics.com.au/ Thanks for the link. These guys have some very affordable options, much much cheaper than some DIY type materials I have seen elsewhere. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
muon* Posted July 2, 2020 Share Posted July 2, 2020 1 hour ago, lemarquis said: Thanks for the link. These guys have some very affordable options, much much cheaper than some DIY type materials I have seen elsewhere. I'm only aware of them as some other member linked them in another thread :D Very reasonable compared to other commercial offerings, and the tests indicate they do as they should and pretty well. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kanef Posted July 2, 2020 Share Posted July 2, 2020 (edited) Martini XHD will help absorption of your room axial mode reflections. However the material is not particularly linear in its response as can be seen in the test results below. Referring to first image, the blue line is the XHD at 50mm thickness. (Doubling the thickness makes matters worse. ) The purple line is my own absorber. Developed to produce smooth absorption thru the full base spectrum. Compare these with my super bass absorption panel results in the second image. Designed to deal specifically with fundamental axial modes in small rooms. This passive absorber will deal those difficult 40 to 80 Hz modes. All panels are 550mm * 550mm *90mm deep. They may be wall mounted, free standing, inserted between wall studs or incorporated into room furniture. Edited July 2, 2020 by Kanef Figures have disappeared Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
$piro Posted July 3, 2020 Author Share Posted July 3, 2020 On 01/07/2020 at 1:04 AM, Kanef said: A great room. However absorption curtains may be useful further down the track. Suggest that you do phase 2 first. what is the longest dimension in the room? Happy to assist in getting some data together. Just need to use your smartphone. I can email a wav file with some sweeps that will interrogate the room. We would need to make Audio measurements in a number of points in the room. since I retired I’ve developed some Passive absorption technology that may be of use. cheers Kanef Thanks for overwhelming support and advice you guys have provided me and i can now declare that since i have had the curtain installed ( was on the wife's agenda for a while ) we have noticed a small improvement in the echo of the room. I have also acquired for free a stack of 450mm x 450mm x 100 mm thick foam pads from a customer of mine that throws them out and will use these through a trial and error process and move them around in the room to see what works and then mark the area with tape. When i am satisfied with the result i will then acquire some appropriate panels with a high NRC and fit them to spots i have marked with tape. I will keep you guys posted because it is clear this thread has attracted a large amount of interest and advice which is most welcomed. Thanks again 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
$piro Posted October 31, 2020 Author Share Posted October 31, 2020 Hey guys, just thought I’d keep this thread alive by updating you guys on my recent works. I have since been able to further “tame” the reflections in the room that were giving me grief by installing some 7mm acoustic panels from Autex. I managed to acquire these at a sensible price and am quite happy with the results. My wife is also happy with the way they look. The combination of curtains and panels has provided us with a more pleasant space to sit and converse (yell) in. Still a very average room to listen to music in but at least my ears don’t bleed when a seven year old and a nine year old get into a shouting match. The man cave is still my primary music room. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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