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doogie44

In Praise Of Toe-out

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Since 1975 I have been playing with my speakers (only the models keep changing). These included KEF 104ab; Celestion SL600; Martin Logan ESL; Artemis Eos; Magneplanar 1.7; Spatial Hologram M3 Turbos, and, now, Tekton Perfect SET 15. I kept the first 4 types for a decade each. Now I'm pursuing low power and high speaker efficiency.

 

Every single speaker I have owned has ended up toed-in to a degree (viewed from the listening position). Just sounded better that way to me.

 

Over recent weeks I have been plagued by an excess of treble sound/energy from my system sufficient to make certain reproduced piano notes (only in the higher frequencies, almost like a 'dud' key on an actual piano) and some female vocals quite harsh in forte passages. I racked my brains trying to sort this out and was mostly focussed on the poor local power supply (having attended to any- and everything else I could think of. My PS Audio Dectet tripped out each night and sometimes during the day (= over/under voltage). I won't bore you with the experiments I have made (big and small amps and connections, room treatments, etc). Now to the crunch.

 

In passing I read on the Net about a speaker that poured a lot of treble energy into a room and required a fair bit of toe-out to cure/tame the poor sound blend. Could it be?? I leapt from my chair and immediately changed the speaker angles. TA DA!! Problem gone. 

 

Even better, it was a superior sound since the effects of some 'over-driving' of the room by the Tektons disappeared. I could not make the problem come back. Good. I had a very good evening where I rediscovered the joy of non-critical listening. The different parts of my system now function synchronously.

 

I realise I had been mired in the complacency of the familiar. I didn't go back to basics--as I thought I had done--to solve a problem.

 

Just bringing it up here in the Forum because I see that many system photos show toe-out (or no toe-in) routinely, so presumably the brains trust on SNA are better informed than I was. But if not--here you go. Something to try.

 

My 2c worth.

 

 

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9 minutes ago, doogie44 said:

toe-out

Interesting. Never considered it.

Might be something to consider although I am not sure it is legal.😖

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Yes, some spkrs are supposed to sound best perpendicular to the front wall - which, to me, is the same as 'toe-ed out'.  (if toe-ed out means "not toe-ed in"!  :lol: )

 

Andy

 

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nit experience this ... but my main speakers certainly dont need any toe in...they fire straight ahead...

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9 minutes ago, betty boop said:

they fire straight ahead...

 

Well, they do now, after your last GTG...  😉

 

Mine sound best firing straight ahead.  Played around with toe-in, never toe-out though...sounds like something from the Hokey Pokey.

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Straight ahead for me and my Altec horns. 

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1 minute ago, Kaynin said:

 

Well, they do now, after your last GTG...  😉

 

Mine sound best firing straight ahead.  Played around with toe-in, never toe-out though...sounds like something from the Hokey Pokey.

curiously same brand but smaller stand mount,  in my bedroom system  seem ot benefit with tow in...

 

so good ness knows :D will keep an open mind ... hehe

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Toe in does the same thing but can also have the benefit of creating a larger sweet spot for other listeners other than the central position. That's why some recommend to have an extreme toe in position pointing the speaker to cross them  in front of the listening position.

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2 hours ago, doogie44 said:

Since 1975 I have been playing with my speakers (only the models keep changing). These included KEF 104ab; Celestion SL600; Martin Logan ESL; Artemis Eos; Magneplanar 1.7; Spatial Hologram M3 Turbos, and, now, Tekton Perfect SET 15. I kept the first 4 types for a decade each. Now I'm pursuing low power and high speaker efficiency.

 

Every single speaker I have owned has ended up toed-in to a degree (viewed from the listening position). Just sounded better that way to me.

 

Over recent weeks I have been plagued by an excess of treble sound/energy from my system sufficient to make certain reproduced piano notes (only in the higher frequencies, almost like a 'dud' key on an actual piano) and some female vocals quite harsh in forte passages. I racked my brains trying to sort this out and was mostly focussed on the poor local power supply (having attended to any- and everything else I could think of. My PS Audio Dectet tripped out each night and sometimes during the day (= over/under voltage). I won't bore you with the experiments I have made (big and small amps and connections, room treatments, etc). Now to the crunch.

 

In passing I read on the Net about a speaker that poured a lot of treble energy into a room and required a fair bit of toe-out to cure/tame the poor sound blend. Could it be?? I leapt from my chair and immediately changed the speaker angles. TA DA!! Problem gone. 

 

Even better, it was a superior sound since the effects of some 'over-driving' of the room by the Tektons disappeared. I could not make the problem come back. Good. I had a very good evening where I rediscovered the joy of non-critical listening. The different parts of my system now function synchronously.

 

I realise I had been mired in the complacency of the familiar. I didn't go back to basics--as I thought I had done--to solve a problem.

 

Just bringing it up here in the Forum because I see that many system photos show toe-out (or no toe-in) routinely, so presumably the brains trust on SNA are better informed than I was. But if not--here you go. Something to try.

 

My 2c worth.

 

 

Interestingly l tried the same recently. People talk about 'the sweet spot' , the triangleation. But move your head 3" either side and you lose it.

 

So l thought l would experiment. I moved my speakers from a toe in position,to a straight ahead position. There is still a very slight toe in, but only 1" from left to right of the speaker. Not sure what that equates to in degrees. But it is slight, and if in a direct straight position, it would have fired into a cabinet on either side, so no choice.

 

But what a difference it has made. The sound stage is much improved. I'm enjoying the sound much more. It seems more room filling and more dynamic, where ever. I sit.

There is still a sweet spot, but else where in the room the sound is better.

 

All because l had read on forum that said to try your speakers firing straight ahead. I guess it pays to experiment and try these things for yourself. Obviously your room dynamics have a huge baring on this. But it worked in my case. Definite improvement. I guess my motto is, keep trying speaker positioning, regardless of what make. I have learnt that room dynamics is most crucial in the scheme of things.

 

 

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