t_mike Posted August 8, 2020 Share Posted August 8, 2020 What is the total capacitance value on the power amp side of the Moon? That may be telling. @davewantsmoore I don't think @Ittaku meant that impedance dropped below 4 ohms (theoretically 4.8 actually), more that a total variance of 4 ohms (+/-2 ohms) is possible, and that could produce a steep ramp. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hazzac181 Posted August 8, 2020 Share Posted August 8, 2020 1 hour ago, davewantsmoore said: I suspect, old, tired, and the person who repaired them turned up the bass to make them sound right (all but stated by that person accroding to a previous post). So what is the implication here in layman's terms? The rubber surround on the bass driver is brittle and old, reducing bass response? Just trying to understand correctly here, apologies Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cardiiiii Posted August 8, 2020 Share Posted August 8, 2020 Can your amp be used as a pre? If so, see if someone can lend you one of those relatively cheap Hypex Class D power amps. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hazzac181 Posted August 8, 2020 Share Posted August 8, 2020 24 minutes ago, t_mike said: What is the total capacitance value on the power amp side of the Moon? That may be telling. Power-supply capacitance: 20,000µF. https://www.stereophile.com/content/simaudio-moon-i-1-integrated-amplifier-specifications Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hazzac181 Posted August 8, 2020 Share Posted August 8, 2020 1 minute ago, Cardiiiii said: Can your amp be used as a pre? If so, see if someone can lend you one of those relatively cheap Hypex Class D power amps. Yeah it has a pre-out on it. I don't know anyone else in Melbourne with an amp of any description, let alone a class D power amp – unless another forum member in Melbourne is willing to be reasonably trusting and generous with their time... Made tentative arrangements to head back to the repairer to listen to some of the collection of amplifiers he had in store 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ittaku Posted August 8, 2020 Share Posted August 8, 2020 1 minute ago, hazzac181 said: Yeah it has a pre-out on it. I don't know anyone else in Melbourne with an amp of any description, let alone a class D power amp – unless another forum member in Melbourne is willing to be reasonably trusting and generous with their time... You could borrow mine, but of course lockdown makes that hard... 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cardiiiii Posted August 8, 2020 Share Posted August 8, 2020 4 minutes ago, hazzac181 said: Yeah it has a pre-out on it. I don't know anyone else in Melbourne with an amp of any description, let alone a class D power amp – unless another forum member in Melbourne is willing to be reasonably trusting and generous with their time... Made tentative arrangements to head back to the repairer to listen to some of the collection of amplifiers he had in store Reason I suggested a Class D is because they are often the size of a book and can be posted easily. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ittaku Posted August 8, 2020 Share Posted August 8, 2020 (edited) We'll know soon enough if it's amplification. NC400 monoblocks should be more than enough to tell. Edited August 8, 2020 by Ittaku 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hazzac181 Posted August 8, 2020 Share Posted August 8, 2020 After listening to @Ittaku's monoblocks with the vandy's (many thanks once again), I noticed the following: a reduction in the harshness I was experiencing at the higher volumes compared to using my amp as a power source, and a lot more control. Everything sounded tighter, if you will. However, bass did not improve. At all. What is the likelihood that the rubber on the surround of the driver is now harder, reducing bass? I ask only because there as been a comment suggesting that the drivers could be old and/or tired. Alternatively, perhaps I have overestimated the bass capability of the vandy's, which seem far more suited to classical and jazz than my perhaps more crude tastes. Otherwise, I'm at a complete loss Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ittaku Posted August 8, 2020 Share Posted August 8, 2020 (edited) Sounds like two separate issues entirely then. It did start out as a complaint about harshness at volume, but the bass seems to be a separate unresolved problem. Sounds like turning the bass up is what they need since that was done when you demoed them since they were obviously capable of it with enough extra bass thrown at them? Edited August 8, 2020 by Ittaku 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hazzac181 Posted August 8, 2020 Share Posted August 8, 2020 2 hours ago, Ittaku said: Sounds like two separate issues entirely then. It did start out as a complaint about harshness at volume, but the bass seems to be a separate unresolved problem. Sounds like turning the bass up is what they need since that was done when you demoed them since they were obviously capable of it with enough extra bass thrown at them? Certainly appears to be the case. I may look at substituting them for more appropriate loudspeakers given what I now know Thanks once again to all for commenting and shedding some light on the issue Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bunno77 Posted August 8, 2020 Share Posted August 8, 2020 3 hours ago, hazzac181 said: After listening to @Ittaku's monoblocks with the vandy's (many thanks once again), I noticed the following: a reduction in the harshness I was experiencing at the higher volumes compared to using my amp as a power source, and a lot more control. Everything sounded tighter, if you will. However, bass did not improve. At all. What is the likelihood that the rubber on the surround of the driver is now harder, reducing bass? I ask only because there as been a comment suggesting that the drivers could be old and/or tired. Alternatively, perhaps I have overestimated the bass capability of the vandy's, which seem far more suited to classical and jazz than my perhaps more crude tastes. Otherwise, I'm at a complete loss If you walk around the room is there strong bass somewhere? In a corner maybe? More bass than in the seat? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hazzac181 Posted August 8, 2020 Share Posted August 8, 2020 4 hours ago, Bunno77 said: If you walk around the room is there strong bass somewhere? In a corner maybe? More bass than in the seat? Not that I've found, and boy have I done some walking Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bunno77 Posted August 8, 2020 Share Posted August 8, 2020 9 hours ago, hazzac181 said: Not that I've found, and boy have I done some walking Pretty safe to say it's not acoustics or amp now then. Still strange that you liked the sound after the repair. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Uglu Posted August 9, 2020 Share Posted August 9, 2020 You might want to try different cables. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davewantsmoore Posted August 9, 2020 Share Posted August 9, 2020 21 hours ago, hazzac181 said: What is the likelihood that the rubber on the surround of the driver is now harder, reducing bass? Theere's a lot of possible reasons why. If you're repair man said he had to turn up the bass knob when he was testing them to get them to sound right..... then I think you know what the root cause is (it's not your electronics). You'd need to take them to someone who can actively diagnose the issue. 21 hours ago, hazzac181 said: Alternatively, perhaps I have overestimated the bass capability of the vandy's It's hard to comment.... some people have funny ideas about "what is right".... The Vandersteens are well engineered speakers. If they are working properly they should produce the correct amount of bass. If that isn't enough for you. Use some EQ. However assuming what you alluded to earlier is right (the repair man, didn't think they made enough bass)..... then they are likely "faulty". 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wimbo Posted August 9, 2020 Share Posted August 9, 2020 14 hours ago, hazzac181 said: Not that I've found, and boy have I done some walking Once again. The Vandersteens are not the speaker you are looking for. The hint is in the music preferences. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hazzac181 Posted August 9, 2020 Share Posted August 9, 2020 4 hours ago, Bunno77 said: Pretty safe to say it's not acoustics or amp now then. Still strange that you liked the sound after the repair. It appears I liked the sound with some EQ adjustments – something I can't do with my current amp. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hazzac181 Posted August 9, 2020 Share Posted August 9, 2020 10 minutes ago, Wimbo said: Once again. The Vandersteens are not the speaker you are looking for. The hint is in the music preferences. Largely the conclusion I've reached, however I'm still surprised by just how large the differences between my expectations and the product were – I mean I was shocked enough to warrant the creation of a troubleshooting thread. I guess I'll sell them and move on to a more efficient loudspeaker better suited to my tastes. I'd like to thank all for your assistance once again – it has been invaluable Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ittaku Posted August 9, 2020 Share Posted August 9, 2020 6 minutes ago, hazzac181 said: Largely the conclusion I've reached, however I'm still surprised by just how large the differences between my expectations and the product were – I mean I was shocked enough to warrant the creation of a troubleshooting thread. I guess I'll sell them and move on to a more efficient loudspeaker better suited to my tastes. I'd like to thank all for your assistance once again – it has been invaluable See if you can find ones with a bass hump, or an amp with tone controls just to be sure. The Yamaha I referenced earlier is a good example of one that would suit. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ittaku Posted August 9, 2020 Share Posted August 9, 2020 2 hours ago, Uglu said: You might want to try different cables. This would not cause a big enough difference to correct the amount of bass lacking the OP is complaining about. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hazzac181 Posted August 9, 2020 Share Posted August 9, 2020 3 minutes ago, Ittaku said: See if you can find ones with a bass hump I assume this means aim for speakers with a bass hump in the frequency response? Still learning Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ittaku Posted August 9, 2020 Share Posted August 9, 2020 1 minute ago, hazzac181 said: I assume this means aim for speakers with a bass hump in the frequency response? Still learning Yes. Low frequency extension to 20Hz is rarely what anyone actually wants as the bass most people want is in the 40-60Hz range, and trying to make speakers go down to 20Hz for bragging rights comes at a cost in other ways. If you find something with a relative boost around the 60Hz range in the frequency response, I suspect it will be exactly what you're looking for. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kelossus Posted August 9, 2020 Share Posted August 9, 2020 (edited) Like Dave said above, Vandersteen are well engineered speakers. If the bass is completely absent after 4 pages of experimentation ruling out all but the speakers, I think something is faulty. I have owned and heard a few Vandersteens, not the 1C, but they were never completely absent of bass. I would measure the speakers as a last resort. Edited August 9, 2020 by kelossus 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wimbo Posted August 9, 2020 Share Posted August 9, 2020 1 hour ago, kelossus said: Like Dave said above, Vandersteen are well engineered speakers. If the bass is completely absent after 4 pages of experimentation ruling out all but the speakers, I think something is faulty. I have owned and heard a few Vandersteens, not the 1C, but they were never completely absent of bass. I would measure the speakers as a last resort. I had 2c's back in the late 80's for a while and they were nice. The Epos ES14's were better I thought. I ended up getting Quad ESL63's for the music I was listening to at that time. I think this is the same situation but with different music. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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