Laminate flooring and speaker spikes

[pwstereo]

Hello all,

I've recently moved to a new place and it has that laminate flooring which is laid over the concrete floor slab.

It has a high and hollow sound when you walk on it with hard-soled shoes or tap on it. I assume it's laid over battens or similar.

 

I have medium sized floor standing speakers which I've always used with the supplied spikes on carpet floors (both on a solid hardwood floor and a concrete slab floor).
This has made perfect sense to me and fits with my understanding of how the speakers should be configured in that situation. The speakers are Q Acoustics 2050 and weigh 21 kg each.

 

But now, the spikes would badly damage the laminate flooring, I have the listening area covered with good quality commercial carpet tiles, and these extend below the equipment cabinet and speakers. I've place an additional mat (a doormat cut in half) under each speaker trying to keep the spikes out of the laminate floor surface.
To me, this seems like a poor arrangement. I don't think it makes any sense to be connecting the speakers to the light laminate flooring, I picture it being excited by the speaker and vibrating. Intuitively I feel it would make more sense to use the spikes with the softer variety of those Whites Anti-Vibration pads that Bunnings sell. I mean to let the spikes go into the thick rubber pads and the rubber would keep the vibration from being transmitted to the laminate flooring. Alternately, I could take off the spikes and just rest the speakers on the carpet tiles (with or without the additional mat).

 

But I've been looking for information, and have seen on this forum , some rather odd arrangements of bamboo cutting boards or slabs and rubber isolating pads.
I'm puzzled by the spikes to bamboo, then rubber pads to floor. To my mind this is potentially going to have the bamboo vibrating from induced energy from the speaker (and possibly producing sounds and consequent colouration). I don't understand the reasoning behind the bamboo board/slab.

 

In my situation (heavy-ish floor standers with spikes), on a thin laminate floor over a concrete slab, is there any concensus as to  the best way to;

 - protect the floor

 - get the best sound

 - not annoy the people who live in the flat below me

 

My walls all seem to be double brick with a fine mortar render (if that's at all relevant).

 

 

[Decky]

You can go with spikes into the boards and you will definitely scratch the floor  - joke aside, use some spike pads obviously. Your floor already has a layer of rubber/foam underneath. If you are in an apartment it is most likely thicker rubber (so called acoustic) underlay. That would be better for you. If the floor boards are installed flat that underlay will create a constrained layer damping effect.  The only thing you have to do is to position speakers leveled and enjoy the music. 

 

If you are running a sub - that would need some extra isolation since at low frequencies there is just too much energy that needs to be dissipated. 

[BATMAQN]

[Irek]

http://isoacoustics.com/iso-puck/

 

[pwstereo]

Thanks for the replies, I feel that the isolation idea is right.

I will put some of the Whites Anti-Vibration pads under the spikes today and see how that goes.

Also, there is a sub, it's the Q Acoustics 2070S that goes with the floor standers. I'll definitely be putting it on the anti-vibration pads too.

Edited March 3, 2020 by pwstereo

[BATMAQN]

Just out of interest maybe try the 5 cent pieces as an experiment it will only cost 40 cents I did and it worked those Bunnings pads are pretty good too.

[audiofeline]

The coin under spikes is generally used to protect flooring with spikes.  If you like it, you can then buy an equivalent that has been turned with a depression in the centre for the spike to sit in. 

 

Are you renting?  If so, you might just put your spikes into the floor.  You won't be moving the speakers, so the result will be six tiny point depressions in the floor.  It won't be noticeable when you have the inspection when you move out, and they won't be looking for it. 

 

I don't think using the spikes on the anti-vibration pads would work, they are two very different approaches, and my experiments have demonstrated that spikes work better than those pads (for my speakers on my softwood floor). 

 

Putting a large bamboo chopping block between the floor and the spikes may work well.  In this arragement, I wouldn't put the anti-vibration pads under the bamboo - let it sit on the floor.  However, those pads are cheap, so it won't cost much to experiment to see what lets your speakers deliver the best sound. 

 

[Steffen]

Seeing that the laminate underlay already provides a significant amount of springiness, I'd go with the 5 cent coins. Adding more bounce underneath the speakers is not going to help with keeping the speakers steady. The latter is, in my opinion, the primary purpose of speaker stands and spikes.

[audiofeline]

1 hour ago, Steffen said:

Seeing that the laminate underlay already provides a significant amount of springiness, I'd go with the 5 cent coins. Adding more bounce underneath the speakers is not going to help with keeping the speakers steady. The latter is, in my opinion, the primary purpose of speaker stands and spikes.

Agreed, which is why I think the bamboo block could also be beneficial.

[pwstereo]

2 hours ago, BATMAQN said:

Just out of interest maybe try the 5 cent pieces as an experiment it will only cost 40 cents I did and it worked those Bunnings pads are pretty good too.

Oh! Now I get it, I thought you were putting your 5 cents worth in, but forgot the words

[pwstereo]

I see that there is no strict rule to this, opinions vary, I think I'm going to have to do some testing.

I get the bounce/movement thing, that sounds bad to me too.

But I can't help but think the thing flooring would vibrate in sympathy with the speakers if the spikes went directly to it.

Maybe spikes to heavy bamboo slabs which sit on the carpet tiles (so no excitation of the laminate flooring).

The coins would work similarly to the bamboos labs, a rigid place for the spike to connect to, then the carpet tile would isolate the whole thing from the laminate flooring. I have a centre punch and could easily dimple some coins for this.

 

Thanks for the additional ideas and explanations 

[Steffen]

Why do you want to isolate the speakers from the laminate? Putting carpet there is going to be counter-productive (except see below), it's going to make the speakers' position less rigid and more wobbly. Speaker spikes – the thin, sharp ones – exist to get around (or rather: through) the problem of carpet flooring.

 

The only reason to do anything in your situation is to prevent damage to the laminate. The small coins will do that.

 

One exception, where you wouldn't want to eliminate carpet, is when you're still working out the final speaker position. This can be a lengthy process, and being able to slide speakers around on carpet helps enormously. I've got carpet floor in my new listening room and would normally punch the spikes of my speaker stands right through. However, I'm still working on speaker positioning, so I've put the spiked stands on heavy granite slabs that reduce the carpet wobble somewhat but allow me to reposition the speakers with ease.

[Decky]

The only thing you have to worry about when the flooring is concerned is so called "floor bounce" that effects low to mid freq regions (100-300Hz) - anything below that you cannot do anything about except to ground it into the floor in the best possible way by positioning your speakers to be as stable as possible (hence the spikes). Frequencies above 300Hz will be easily absorbed at various levels through out the speaker or equipment interfaces - one of the being some form of isolation pad or in this case - your floor board underlay. 

 

The floor bounce does not allow speakers to be stable and can cause a very tangible and measurable effect - easily noticeable on your FR chart. You flooring (again - if it is installed properly) should have a minimal amount of give and therefore be quite insensitive to these frequencies. The worst offenders are unsupported wooden floors. In your case the boards will just ground all of that energy into concrete base and you can go and be happy. 

 

When you ground very low frequencies like that (say sub 60Hz). Then you will be testing structural integrity of the house/building. You might be happy but your neighbours certainly will not be. That is why is better to isolate subwoofers from the ground . 

 

Anyway - it is entirely your choice - I am just pointing that there is a relatively straightforward science behind this - no magic or guess work. The best and most exciting way to solve your problem would be to measure your FR and test different ways of speaker isolation and pick the one that produces the best results. 

Edited March 4, 2020 by Decky

[blybo]

I have a floating floor over slab. Firstly I used 5c pieces under spikes. Cheap solution and sounded fine. Then tried the Ikea bamboo chopping board under spikes... Better. Then put the board on sorbothane. Better still.

 

Next step was new speakers and some Herbies sliders to replace the screwed in rubber feet they speakers came with. Excellent... Final step was Isoaccoustics  Gaia III feet after hearing a real world demo at the Stereonet HiFi show... I feel I'm not at a point where further isolation is no longer required.

[Snoopy8]

15 hours ago, pwstereo said:

I've recently moved to a new place and it has that laminate flooring which is laid over the concrete floor slab.

It has a high and hollow sound when you walk on it with hard-soled shoes or tap on it. I assume it's laid over battens or similar.

I have doubts that there are any battens. Laminate flooring is usually stuck onto the concrete floor itself. It sounds hollow because you have another unit underneath!

6 hours ago, Irek said:

http://isoacoustics.com/iso-puck/

I agree they are good and there is a promotion on.

[blybo]

Just now, Snoopy8 said:

Laminate flooring is usually stuck onto the concrete floor itself

If it's laminate floating boards it will be laid on a layer of cheap foam. Ours really creaks when walking on it on humid days as the boards (or the underlay) obviously swell.

[muon*]

Try isolating instead, place the spiked speakers on Bamboo cutting boards and place Whites Anti vibration blocks from Bunnings under the boards, the 100mm x 100mm ones.

Cheap way to see it this works better for you, and will not damage the floor boards.

Edited March 4, 2020 by muon*
typo

[pwstereo]

2 hours ago, Steffen said:

Why do you want to isolate the speakers from the laminate?

Because I thought it would vibrate and colour the sound.

Apparently this thought was unfounded, but it makes a lot of noise if you walk on it in hard soled shoes.

[pwstereo]

49 minutes ago, Snoopy8 said:

I have doubts that there are any battens. Laminate flooring is usually stuck onto the concrete floor itself. It sounds hollow because you have another unit underneath!

No, I have carpet on other areas and tiles on other areas, they are solid as a rock (It would be a fairly thick concrete floor).

The laminate has a clicky hollow sound, as if it's either on battens (it can't be as it's the same level as the carpet and tiles), or the material is somehow hollow.  It's an undamped lively sound, I don't think it's stuck to rubber or other underlay.

[pwstereo]

2 hours ago, Decky said:

The only thing you have to worry about when the flooring is concerned is so called "floor bounce" that effects low to mid freq regions (100-300Hz) - anything below that you cannot do anything about except to ground it into the floor in the best possible way by positioning your speakers to be as stable as possible (hence the spikes). Frequencies above 300Hz will be easily absorbed at various levels through out the speaker or equipment interfaces - one of the being some form of isolation pad or in this case - your floor board underlay. 

 

The floor bounce does not allow speakers to be stable and can cause a very tangible and measurable effect - easily noticeable on your FR chart. You flooring (again - if it is installed properly) should have a minimal amount of give and therefore be quite insensitive to these frequencies. The worst offenders are unsupported wooden floors. In your case the boards will just ground all of that energy into concrete base and you can go and be happy. 

 

When you ground very low frequencies like that (say sub 60Hz). Then you will be testing structural integrity of the house/building. You might be happy but your neighbours certainly will not be. That is why is better to isolate subwoofers from the ground . 

 

Anyway - it is entirely your choice - I am just pointing that there is a relatively straightforward science behind this - no magic or guess work. The best and most exciting way to solve your problem would be to measure your FR and test different ways of speaker isolation and pick the one that produces the best results. 

Thank you for defining things a bit better, the frequency ranges and behaviour are new information to me.

I've put the sub on some of the thick Whites Anti-Vibration pads (the softer and thicker ones). The spikes go into the rubber and can't contact the floor.

 

The floor standers spikes currently touch the laminate, they punch right through the extra door mat layer (it's a thin and stiffish rubber/fibre composite thing), and also go through the carpet tiles. The speakers are steady/stable.

 

It was the idea that the floor would be excited and vibrate (because it's thing and light sounding), and that perhaps I was annoying the neighbours below that were the driver for me thinking isolation might be a good thing.

 

I'm going to leave the floor standers as they are for a bit and the sub on its new rubber pads and see how things go.

Edited March 4, 2020 by pwstereo
Spelling

[pwstereo]

1 hour ago, blybo said:

Snip...

Next step was new...

Ha ha, it's a disease.

[blybo]

17 minutes ago, pwstereo said:

The laminate has a clicky hollow sound, as if it's either on battens (it can't be as it's the same level as the carpet and tiles), or the material is somehow hollow.  It's an undamped lively sound, I don't think it's stuck to rubber or other underlay.

Are they interlocking boards or a rolled out type laminate. My floating boards are hollow sounding if I were to wear dress shoes on them, but they are still laid on a blue foam that's only a couple of mm thick. The foam is there to allow for hollows or imperfections in the slab. In my retail shoe shop I have a newer style of laminate boards that are stuck down to the slab using a "never curing" glue so they can be replaced 1 by 1. They don't click like my boards at home do but you can feel the slight peaks and hollows of the slab.

[pwstereo]

15 minutes ago, blybo said:

Are they interlocking boards or a rolled out type laminate. My floating boards are hollow sounding if I were to wear dress shoes on them, but they are still laid on a blue foam that's only a couple of mm thick.

They are separate boards, I found a few spares in a wardrobe. You must be right about the thin foam. I’ve never had a floor like this before.

[blybo]

17 hours ago, pwstereo said:

They are separate boards, I found a few spares in a wardrobe. You must be right about the thin foam. I’ve never had a floor like this before.

If your speaker spike threads & budget allows, just get the Gaia feet, or a cheaper option is the SVS subwoofer feet

[Guest DrSK]

If you have people below you and your building meets the Australian Building Code or National Standards your laminate will have at least a spongy underlay under it and possibly be on battens.

 

Coupling with the floor is a real possibility, meaning it may radiate. It is also likely to be spongy and not be the most stable under the few contact points of spikes. 

 

Spikes are designed to provide a solid stiff connection to concrete through carpet. You don't have this.

 

You have a low stiffness and lightweight floor suspended over concrete, bad for transmitting speaker vibration and changing response. This can also stuff the performance of isolators if you use them. Springyness of the floor changes the isolation performance of isolators. I've had to fix $100m superyachts because the isolators on engines have been connected to bouncy engine support rails which weren't considered in the isolator specification. They have instead provide zero isolation in extreme cases. 

 

My instinct says sit your speakers on something heavy that will help resist transmission into the flooring (where it can radiated into your apartment and distort) and also provide a stiff support for your speaker so it can't rock around. The weight will also improve the isolation of your speakers provided by the flooring system to the slab under it too for neighbours.

 

My thoughts are two 600 by 600 by 50 concrete pavers under each speaker. This will give you 80kg of mass under each speaker, you may be happy with one. And maybe a sheet of single layer cardboard under each to protect the floor. And maybe a fraction more cardboard as packers where needed, but more than likely the flooring will deflect to the flat shape of the paver. 80kg shouldn't over load it either and flatten the flooring isolation system as it's designed to isolate adults walking around. 

 

For your sub. Most likely problematic in an apartment situation anyway, just due to the acoustic loading on walls, floors and ceiling.  Your neighbours will let you know. 

Edited March 7, 2020 by DrSK