ABC article - Vinyl vs Digital

[dcathro]

11 hours ago, Ian R-B said:

The way to elevate CD replay is via a modern Dac – which today can be got cheaply at budget level for very good performance. Well built old Players can also be got dirt cheap if you don’t have one. Modern will outclass the Dac built into an older CDP – even an exotic one from the past. D/A conversion has radically improved over the last several years.

 

I feel that the opposite is true. The old multibit DACs are far better than the modern delta sigmas. Old machinery was let down by bad digital filtering, poor output stages, jittery clocks and mediocre power supplies.

Edited March 4, 2020 by dcathro

[Guest rondine]

14 minutes ago, dcathro said:

 

I feel that the opposite is true. The old multibit DACs are far better than the modern delta sigmas. Old machinery was let down by bad digital filtering, poor output stages, jittery clocks and mediocre power supplies.

Indeed, tda1541a and pcm63 are the go.

 

ron

[Batty]

I like whatever is in the Ares II.

[was_a]

43 minutes ago, dcathro said:

 

I feel that the opposite is true. The old multibit DACs are far better than the modern delta sigmas. Old machinery was let down by bad digital filtering, poor output stages, jittery clocks and mediocre power supplies.

27 minutes ago, rondine said:

Indeed, tda1541a and pcm63 are the go.

 

ron

Not to my ears. I'd argue that modern AKM and Sabre chips are mostly poorly implemented. They're often put into cheapish DACs where hardware and circuit designs are based on the rudimentary recommendations of the chip-makers - in order to measure well. They're not done proper justice. 

 

Also, when a new chip is released there's a 'maturing process' before they are utilised to their full potential. This is why many of the better new DACs and SACD/CD players are built around AK 4xxx and ES 9xxx chips that were released some years ago.

 

 

Edited March 4, 2020 by was_a

[was_a]

14 minutes ago, Batty said:

I like whatever is in the Ares II.

Hey, come on! Educate yourself please!!

[rockeater]

On 01/03/2020 at 6:05 PM, Wimbo said:

It's the ABC that we  all pay for. Not needed in the cities.

That is right. Well put.

We should sell off ABCs spectrum to free it for the shopping channels.

AFP funding could then also be cut, because they no longer would be needed to raid the non-existent ABC and all this money saved could be sent to Foxtel for another round of grants.

Andrew Bolt and Alan Jones already provide all the commentary we need and no one calls them biased as they do the ABC.

[MattyW]

55 minutes ago, dcathro said:

 

I feel that the opposite is true. The old multibit DACs are far better than the modern delta sigmas. Old machinery was let down by bad digital filtering, poor output stages, jittery clocks and mediocre power supplies.

 

39 minutes ago, rondine said:

Indeed, tda1541a and pcm63 are the go.

 

ron

My experience has mirrored yours in this so far. I'm looking forward to recieving my Abbas Audio DAC2.2SE TDA1541A R1. It shipped from the Ukraine on Monday.

 

I've a nice Holland TDA1541A S1 to go in it. Even with the far lesser Lamp Audio TDA1541A DAC I'm temporarily running now via the Mutec MC-3+ Usb outperforms most DAC I've ever heard,  and it's not much of a DAC.

 

@Batty I'm sure you're joking about not knowing what's in it.

 

I believe it's a discrete R2R based unit and by all counts a fantastic sounding unit.

 

 

All things considered I still believe vinyl is roughly even in sound to a top digital setup.....  Just like how I've come to believe 16 bit 44khz is all you need for incredible performance with a quality DAC. 

Edited March 4, 2020 by MattyW

[muon*]

12 hours ago, Ian R-B said:

The way to elevate CD replay is via a modern Dac – which today can be got cheaply at budget level for very good performance. Well built old Players can also be got dirt cheap if you don’t have one. Modern will outclass the Dac built into an older CDP – even an exotic one from the past. D/A conversion has radically improved over the last several years.

 

 

 

Darko’s done some (new) Vinyl/Dac comparisons at similar cost. In his opinion there’s no contest.

 

 

 

“Judged purely from a sonic perspective, buying a budget vinyl setup – like a Rega RP1 or a Pro-Ject Debut Carbon – is loaded with the very real risk of disappointment”.

 

 

 

All opinion is preference but before discounting CD/Lossless, Vinyl lovers should try to hear a comparable (pricewise) Digital set-up. Don’t forget to include all Vinyl (& ongoing) costs though.

 

 

 

With all gear there’s variety to suit taste. You can get Tubey sounding SS Amps (& vice versa) – I’ve owned/use myself (using Valve circuit designs for example). So Digital can sound warm/analogy, neutral, resolute etc., whatever you prefer and the rest of your System can be tailored to suit.

Not always, with some of the best DAC chips of yore if implemented well (power supplies, output stage, clocking ect'), or a good player well modified you can get high end performance even for today.

 

Even without modifications, try subjectively comparing something like the Marantz CD12/DA12 separates of circa 1989 to anything from any time period and they will not be shamed by the very best of them.

[Batty]

Yes, I was joking, it has electronic components inside

Lots of caps and resistors, very small resistors, accurate too.

[Wimbo]

10 hours ago, rockeater said:

That is right. Well put.

We should sell off ABCs spectrum to free it for the shopping channels.

AFP funding could then also be cut, because they no longer would be needed to raid the non-existent ABC and all this money saved could be sent to Foxtel for another round of grants.

Andrew Bolt and Alan Jones already provide all the commentary we need and no one calls them biased as they do the ABC.

OOee. Hit a nerve. It doesnt serve all Australians anymore mate. Simple. Free to air TV is dead anyway. Doesnt really matter which station you look at, it's all MSM crap.

[Ian R-B]

12 hours ago, dcathro said:

 

The old multibit DACs are far better than the modern delta sigmas. Old machinery was let down by bad digital filtering, poor output stages, jittery clocks and mediocre power supplies.

No argument with the 1st bit (so to speak) and that's why quite a few modern Dacs are not Delta, do not filter, some do not have output stages and surely as jitter has been the flavour of the decade, particular attention has been paid to improving it.

11 hours ago, was_a said:

Not to my ears. I'd argue that modern AKM and Sabre chips are mostly poorly implemented. They're often put into cheapish DACs where hardware and circuit designs are based on the rudimentary recommendations of the chip-makers - in order to measure well. They're not done proper justice. 

 

Also, when a new chip is released there's a 'maturing process' before they are utilised to their full potential. This is why many of the better new DACs and SACD/CD players are built around AK 4xxx and ES 9xxx chips that were released some years ago.

Yep there are some people who are driven purely by Specs/measurements and buy accordingly. Agree older converters can still sound good with new implementation ... but they are modern designs.

 

10 hours ago, muon* said:

Not always, with some of the best DAC chips of yore if implemented well (power supplies, output stage, clocking ect'), or a good player well modified you can get high end performance even for today.

 

Even without modifications, try subjectively comparing something like the Marantz CD12/DA12 separates of circa 1989 to anything from any time period and they will not be shamed by the very best of them.

Never heard one (Marantz CD12/DA12) but was considered King of the day and the Transport even now should be excellent. Ken Kessler from HiFi News was one who highly praised the combo (his Reference back then). Would still sound good I'm sure today. But there has been progress.

 

If you have no faith at all - in any Reviewer/s then this won't count : find one using a Dac as their current Reference that's say 5 - 10 years old. It won't include Darko for example. Some might include one however, in conjunction with newer/latest products that they use as main ref. You will however find some using older model CD/SACD's just as Transports.

 

“In among some audiophile groups, the CD is still desirable and collectable. It's the way people acquire and listen to music. Some as a reliable one-time digital delivery format, as they rip it to FLAC or WAV. But still more have walked away from streaming because they feel CD sounds better. And, in fairness, many of the listening tests are compelling”.

HIfI+ March 2020

 

Edited March 4, 2020 by Ian R-B
spacing

[rockeater]

9 hours ago, Wimbo said:

It doesnt serve all Australians anymore mate

Nothing ever did.

And now ABC is more important, than it ever was. It is a last bastion of normal broadcasting in a never ending sea of drivel.

Even all the excerpts from this article quoted here are factually correct. Although admittedly we all have our own opinions on the matter.

[Wimbo]

2 hours ago, rockeater said:

It is a last bastion of normal broadcasting in a never ending sea of drivel.

The ABC City isnt important anymore. Its part of the drivel.  So predictable. If you think the Dark Comedy they call Q and A is normal Broadcasting then ....... But its up to you and the other that thumbed you up to see that. 

Edited March 5, 2020 by Wimbo

[H.E. Pennypacker]

20 hours ago, Wimbo said:

The ABC City isnt important anymore. Its part of the drivel.  So predictable. If you think the Dark Comedy they call Q and A is normal Broadcasting then ....... But its up to you and the other that thumbed you up to see that. 

- ABC News

- 7:30 report

- 4 Corners

- Foreign Correspondent

- Insiders

- The World

- The Business

 

And that’s just what comes to me off the top of my head...

[cheekyboy]

This thread was at least interesting when it was discussing that old chestnut of vinyl v digital, that has a way of popping up every couple of years or so here on StereoNET.............and I’m sure it is never going to be resolved one way or the other.

 

Now I click on it to take a look and it’s a discussion on the relevance or otherwise of the ABC. Perhaps you could start your own thread on that subject and knock yourself out discussing it, but at least I won’t be taking part.

 

Cheers Keith

[Guest deanB]

1 hour ago, furtherpale said:

- ABC News

- 7:30 report

- 4 Corners

- Foreign Correspondent

- Insiders

- The World

- The Business

 

And that’s just what comes to me off the top of my head...

Planet America

Media Watch

Landline

Offsiders

Rage!!!!

Edited March 6, 2020 by deanB

[cheekyboy]

7 minutes ago, deanB said:

Planet America

Media Watch

Landline

Offsiders

Rage!!!!

Great.............sucked in again!

[Guest deanB]

4 minutes ago, cheekyboy said:

Great.............sucked in again!

I was born with a list.

[cheekyboy]

1 minute ago, deanB said:

I was born with a list.

Que?

[fodderstomf]

Good to see the ABC  posting the same boring click bate vinyl story   

 

Im sure many here already know CD is still outselling vinyl world wide no matter how may news articles “predict” it will change    

 

https://darko.audio/2020/02/the-cd-is-still-the-king-of-physical-formats-in-germany/

 

 

 

 

[davewantsmoore]

On 01/03/2020 at 2:57 PM, audiofeline said:

Why do these articles always take the "one format is superior to the other" argument.

Devisive. 

[gator2310]

I'm glad somebody bought up the whole question of mastering in this discussion. The article could have mentioned that conversions and mastering of music originally issued on vinyl - in the production of CD's in their prime could be absolutely terrible.

 

Like many people, I started replacing some of my tired vinyl with CD in the early 90's. Many very disappointing examples- too many to think of. It was clearly a mass produced badly conceived dash for cash in many cases.

 

On the other hand stuff recorded and mastered for CD could be outstanding.

 

Another factor that could be have been discussed was the change from analog to digital recording - which was hot on the heels of CD production. The utility and access of digital studios has resulted in a flood of easy made recordings some of which are atrocious - and some which are gorgeous. Professional recordings which can sound bad-  and home style recordings which serve the music beautifully - its blown it wide open.

Add to that the subjectivity of whether one actually likes the music or not - and the whole concept of SQ becomes fluid.

 

If I have any critique of the ABC - its only the constant meddling with it to appease its  critics.

Shows that were highlights on the music calendar like "The Planet" have been replaced with forgettable talk shows. The confusion about political "balance" threatens to neuter investigative journalism and just serves to dumb down what is one of the few state broadcasters left in the world that actually produces meaningful current affairs, drama and commentary.

 

If you think the ABC is irrelevant - I invite you to check what has happened to the BBC or NZBC. In bureaucratic moves to make the BBC more "relevant" its free to air content has been glutted with reality TV and talk shows - on my last visit there I could hardly believe it.

. When the NZ government offloaded its responsibilities to broadcasting back in the early 90's - it started a rapid decline in quality across all channels. Nowadays NZ TV seems to be dominated by reruns and cheap reality TV.

 

 

 

Edited March 10, 2020 by gator2310
to try and avoid the inevitable political polemic...

[Candyflip]

Watts Good will feature a video interview with Adrian Sardi next weekend, where we'll hear from Adrian about all the points he made that weren't covered fully in the ABC interview, nor were surfaced fully in the text article ABC also did online.

 

He'll also take us through his current loves (vinyl mastering and small run pressings) in depth, and just chat more about what it takes to be in-between both worlds.

 

Should be a fascinating sit-down.   

[Candyflip]

On 15/03/2020 at 4:19 PM, candyflip said:

Watts Good will feature a video interview with Adrian Sardi next weekend, where we'll hear from Adrian about all the points he made that weren't covered fully in the ABC interview, nor were surfaced fully in the text article ABC also did online.

 

He'll also take us through his current loves (vinyl mastering and small run pressings) in depth, and just chat more about what it takes to be in-between both worlds.

 

Should be a fascinating sit-down.   

Thanks to COVID, this has been delayed - until tomorrow.