Beginner Quest

[Harts]

Thought I'd share my developing story, listen to some ideas and advice and try and learn some new things. I'm a tinkerer at heart and so I am looking forward to what will (eventually) be!

 

I had an idea years ago to purchase myself some sound gear, my father had some beautiful stuff as I was growing up (unfortunately my memory escapes me on the branding, 2 wooden floorstanders, a black, heatsinked amp with rotary controls and switches, a wooden pedastooled record player and a marantz 5 CD player) and I always loved music and musicality. I settled on purchasing an AVR and a 5.1 Wharfedale speaker set. The AVR was a Sony STR DN1040, which I have successfully enjoyed for years. The speakers were not my choice, I was originally after the Wharfedale DX1 5.1 set for our small house, but was sold into a set of Wharfedale Crystal ($549 for the set on special, the DX1 was more expensive and hence the sell). I have never liked the crystal set, they sound flat and unmusical to me, but I had spent the money and so I lived with it.

 

Moving forward some years, we are moving out of our little house and into a bigger house in the coming months. Knowing the changing environment was coming, I gave myself a chance to revisit my audio system, after all I (hope I) deserve it! I have been following the Elac situation for some time, and decided on some Debut 6.2 References. I found them hard to locate, and so I started to explore options. Things quickly escalated as I did my research and I ended up with some KEF LS50s, not a massive financial difference to the Debuts really, but a more demanding package.

 

I began to form a plan of attack, and being the nostalgic guy that I have become, I looked to the past for the power needed to push the LS50s. I found a Yamaha CA-1000III (CA-1010) in good nick and put it on the plane. Sorted! Or so I thought. When I looked at the back of my Sony AVR I did not see pre-outs on the speaker channels... ouch. I do like the STR DN1040, but it does not have the ability to facilitate my new audio needs.

 

So now I am on the look out for a new AVR, one with pre-outs to facilitate external speaker amping. My plan is to upgrade the AVR, upgrade all 5.1 speakers (3.1 now remain) in the nearish future, and continue to incrementally add vintage Yam CA amps to the stack over time.

 

I am new to this, so any thoughts on the AVR would be appreciated. I had a chat to a local HiFi shop and they spent some time talking with me, which was greatly appreciated. So they set me up with thinking about a Marantz SR6013, the warmer sound profile potentially suiting my new room set up better (brick/stone walls, plaster covered, wood batten/plaster ceiling, solid wood floors). I'm open to it and looking into it, but also like the look of something like the NAD 758 v3, for the potential of futureproofing due to the modular design. Is it overkill? I don't know!

 

I am looking for Atmos ready, DTS:X, to cover bases, my wife and I like watching movies/tv at home. WPC is not important as I would like to eventually externally amp, however I am not intending on buying 3 amps at once, so a prepro I don't think will suit, but I could be convinced otherwise if it made sense. Pre-outs on all channels is key.

 

Beyond home theatre though, music is also important to me, hence the external amping and the LS50s. So 2.1 is the goal musically, and part 2 of my broad questioning is, will the AVR deliver the goods for digital sound? Analogue sound I could easily set-up with the phono section running through the CA-1000, which I read is nice, so that is fine. I suppose my concern is whether an AVR DAC of the aforementioned receiver level will suffice, or will and external DAC be required? I'm no audiophile, but I like musicality and musical sound. My tastes are widely varied, classical, Pink Floyd, electronic, but I don't preference any specific style. I like a neutral sound, but prefer warm over harsh if I have to choose. Staging is important to me.

 

Phew, thanks for listening! Looking forward to reading some shared thoughts and wisdom!

 

Cheers.

[Irek]

" I'm no audiophile, but I like musicality and musical sound. My tastes are widely varied, classical, Pink Floyd, electronic, but I don't preference any specific style. I like a neutral sound, but prefer warm over harsh if I have to choose". 

I would suggest to compare first AVR vs stereo integrated amp, even the same brand like Marantz. When it comes to classical music I liked Kef LS 50 with Rega amp. 

 

[Harts]

Thanks for you thoughts Irek, I am not sure Stereo only suits my needs because of wifey and our love for watching movies together, but I will take the advice on board!

Edited February 20, 2020 by Harts

[Harts]

This arrived! Transformer coming tomorrow. Hopefully it is all good and I can hook up the LS50s for some vintage, natural sound! It needs a good clean and a service /recap is inbound.

[thecoffeegent]

That CA 1000 iii is a thing of Beauty! I’ve often thought of grabbing one just to display. 

[Harts]

Just now, thecoffeegent said:

That CA 1000 iii is a thing of Beauty! I’ve often thought of grabbing one just to display. 

Totally agree, I loved it in photos but it is an absolute beast in person. Do yourself a favour!

[Harts]

Compressed air tomorrow!

[Harts]

Super impressed with the build quality. Metal bracing across the vent plate and angle bracing at perpendicular planes. They don't make them like they used to!

Edited March 4, 2020 by Harts

[Harts]

So, regarding the AV Receiver, I think I am going to settle on a NAD T758v3. If my research is correct, then it will allow me to use pre-outs on all channels, supports ATMOS to 7.1.4 (with external amping) and features BlueOS for music streaming/playback and DIRAC Live. For the price it seems like a great value (~$2k new) and I like the idea of modular upgrades for future proofing.

 

I think it will be really interesting to  A/B the stereo amped NAD channels versus the CA-1000III running as a power amp on the LS50s too.

[Snoopy8]

2 minutes ago, Harts said:

So, regarding the AV Receiver, I think I am going to settle on a NAD T758v3. If my research is correct, then it will allow me to use pre-outs on all channels, supports ATMOS to 7.1.4 (with external amping) and features BlueOS for music streaming/playback and DIRAC Live. For the price it seems like a great value (~$2k new) and I like the idea of modular upgrades for future proofing.

 

I think it will be really interesting to  A/B the stereo amped NAD channels versus the CA-1000III running as a power amp on the LS50s too.

I have the T758V3.  You do not have to use external amps for all the channels because the internal amps are better than many AVRs.  The numbers published are real power when multiple channels are simultaneously driven.  Dirac Live and BluOS are excellent.  

 

However, the T758V3 will likely fall short of your 2 channel system.  If you want to run both HT and stereo using the same mains, then setting up something like this will be better.

If the Integrated does not have HT bypass, there is a simple workaround.  Note the volume setting on the integrated when playing the HT system and all speakers have have the same loudness (easy to test in Dirac).  Then re-use that volume setting whenever movies are played.

[Harts]

1 hour ago, Snoopy8 said:

However, the T758V3 will likely fall short of your 2 channel system.  If you want to run both HT and stereo using the same mains, then setting up something like this will be better.

Thank you @Snoopy8, I really appreciate that input from someone with first hand experience of the T758v3.

 

Specifically with regard to the quote from your post above, I am assuming you mean sources like a record player and CD player? I think that is all I might consider hooking up audio wise, letting the NAD Blueos handle the digital/streaming element.

 

Your single line is excellent,  thank you for that, very useful.

 

I think my issue running 2 channel sources directly through the CA1000III (as per your single line) is going to be that I lose my ability to add a subwoofer, unless I am mistaken?

[Harts]

I gave the wooden cover a shot of furniture wax, it really is quite beautiful.

[Snoopy8]

35 minutes ago, Harts said:

Specifically with regard to the quote from your post above, I am assuming you mean sources like a record player and CD player? I think that is all I might consider hooking up audio wise, letting the NAD Blueos handle the digital/streaming element.

 

Your single line is excellent,  thank you for that, very useful.

 

I think my issue running 2 channel sources directly through the CA1000III (as per your single line) is going to be that I lose my ability to add a subwoofer, unless I am mistaken?

Correct. Run CD player etc. directly to the stereo setup.  BlueOS is one of the best (see this comprehensive review) and does create a dilemma because it must run from the T758V3.  While the T758V3 is reasonable for music (with Dirac), it is compromised particularly in the analog stages by budget, box size, need to fit in HT etc.  You will need to compare and see whether BlueOS is acceptable on the NAD for music. 

 

Regarding sharing subs between HT and the stereo system, it is possible but makes things complicated.  I used to do it, but now have separate systems. Diagram below show some different components from previous diagram, but it does convey how it can be done.  For HT, same as previous diagram and DSP can be pass through.  For stereo, need to sum the left and right signals in DSP before sending to subs.

 

 

Edited March 5, 2020 by Snoopy8
Typo

[Harts]

Legendary, I will look into this set-up thoroughly. I really appreciate it @snoopy8!

[H.E. Pennypacker]

Just to throw a spanner in the works.

 

Running the 2 channel sources into the NAD may be the best option, as the 758 is Dirac capable. Dirac is by far the most important (virtual) component to counter a room and integrate speakers and subs. Having Dirac and bypassing it may give you a small improvement, but at the loss of a huge improvement.
 

I run one for 3.0 in the loungeroom (Mrs uses Tidal in there, and for background music) it’s a pretty decent amp. My main is a Luxman L-590axii - so the bar is set pretty high. So impressed was I by Dirac, I have a NAD c658 in my main system.

Edited March 5, 2020 by furtherpale

[Harts]

Interesting point, I will definitely A/B once setup, but from all accounts the DIRAC is awesome.

[Snoopy8]

The T758V3 with Dirac is acceptable. But it will not match a good stereo system, let alone the NAD C658 that @furtherpale owns.  The new T778 may be closer, probably using some of the technology of the M10/M12 but until there are some reviews, it is difficult to know how close.  It is also a lot more expensive.

[Harts]

Blown clean today, unfortunately the transformer shipping was delayed until tomorrow... one more night of coveting to go!

 

Some picks of the inside for those who are interested. Any experts who would like to cast an eye, feel free to let me know if anything critical is going on in there.

 

All cleaned up and ready for a play.

[Harts]

18 minutes ago, Snoopy8 said:

The T758V3 with Dirac is acceptable. But it will not match a good stereo system, let alone the NAD C658 that @furtherpale owns.  The new T778 may be closer, probably using some of the technology of the M10/M12 but until there are some reviews, it is difficult to know how close.  It is also a lot more expensive.

Yes, I am tempering my expectations as I am in the learning stage and not willing to over capitalise too much. Once I have an idea what I am doing and what I like, then I may decide to fiddle further.

 

I feel the T758 v3 is a good start. Now I have to explore pre's and dsps as per your second single line!

Edited March 5, 2020 by Harts

[Snoopy8]

50 minutes ago, Harts said:

Yes, I am tempering my expectations as I am in the learning stage and not willing to over capitalise too much. Once I have an idea what I am doing and what I like, then I may decide to fiddle further.

 

I feel the T758 v3 is a good start. Now I have to explore pre's and dsps as per your second single line!

The T758V3 is a good mid range AVR with more power than many more expensive competitors.  You do not need to use a preamp as per my diagram.  Any integrated amp can do the job.  For the DSP, you will need 2 of  miniDSP 2X4 HD, sometimes available on Classifieds but they go quickly.  You need 2 because there are 3 inputs, 1 from AVR and 2 from stereo.  Or get a more expensive miniDSP 4x10 HD or Behringer DCX2496.

[Harts]

Ok, great. I'll look into the pre/integrated and mini dsp.

 

Cheers!

Edited March 5, 2020 by Harts

[mbz]

Post a pic of the CA-1000iii power supply (remove base plate). Some purplish caps there usually show signs of stress. Suggest recap this board, a cause for many issues. Also recap the power amps, unsolder the 4 wires and remove, will lighten the load making the other work a bit easier. Fully disassemble and clean the coupler switch. Replace the polar tantalum with film or electrlytic. Measure all fusible resistors, don't replace the VD1212's unless faulty, multiturn trimmers on power amp... to be honest the amp should get a full makeover including replacing one set of spkr posts with banana's... a nice amp...

[Harts]

@mbz thanks for tuning in! I have read many of your CA-1000/1010 refurb posts on this and other forums. I'm going to hand this one to a professional, as I don't want to stuff anything up,  but will definitely try the next one myself. I look forward to following your advice and (potentially) picking your brain in the future!

 

Would you mind having a look at this pic especially and commenting on this section of board, what appears to be accelerated oxidisation in a small patch? Solder showing some oxidisation as well as pcb in general, right hand.side where the cables terminate to the pcb in the middle and to the right a touch.

 

Cheers!

Edited March 5, 2020 by Harts

[mbz]

Looks like a liquid spill however doubtful that the grill extends that far forward.
Japan is somewhat a corrosive envirnment for amps, seen plenty with salt/corrosion
damage especially at the RCA's. This is very localised so the spill theory. I would
very lightly clean with acetone or... taking care not to dislodge/remove any of
the green/conformal coating.

 

The solder on the ceramic cap does not look real good, also the leed is close
to the next solder blob, most likely all ok.

 

[Harts]

I thought potentially a spill as well until I considered the vent location, as you did. Perhaps it was sitting within the aircon airstream for 40 years, blowing air through the vent and onto the pcb!

 

I will grab some acetone and have a go at the clean up, thanks @mbz.