dbastin Posted February 17, 2020 Share Posted February 17, 2020 (edited) Let's use this thread to share and discuss ideas, experiments and experiences with fibre. Yes, fibre is not really intended for short distance transmission, but it does provide isolation. However, that benefit may come at the cost of other nasties due to conversion and power supply noise and regulation. It is worth noting some Audio grade ethernet switches have fibre ports, and Sonore also advocates fibre with Opti rendu and Optical Module (media convertor). http://sonore.us/opticalModule.html For newbies to this subject, this is one type of fibre cable. The cable plugs into a transceiver ... And the transceiver plugs into a Small Form-factor Pluggable (SFP) ... https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Small_form-factor_pluggable_transceiver. The tranceiver needs to match the type of fibre cable and needs to be compatible with the device it is plugging into. Domestic network hardwate typically doesnt have fibre capability. Enterprise class hardware often does. A Media Convertor is a device that converts between optical and wired ethernet. Sonore Optical Module is an example of a Media Convertor, but there are many such as this generic one ... Edited October 27, 2020 by dbastin added link to Sonore, improved info 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest rmpfyf Posted February 17, 2020 Share Posted February 17, 2020 8 hours ago, dbastin said: Yes, fibre is not really intended for short distance transmission, but it does provide isolation. However, that benefit may come at the cost of other nasties due to conversion and power supply noise and regulation. Not true - plenty of technical applications using fibre for 1-5m runs. Conversion has no nasties. PSU maybe. Again if assuming the data gets there just fine, the only thing affected is timing, whether via PSU or non. Noise along cable a non-issue though. Most issues with fibre IMHO are at the receive end - timing's as good as what you use to convert back to Ethernet if that's what you've got. Most have an RJ45. Best way is a fibre NIC in a PC/whatever with a well-clocked source at the other end. I'm a few months away from this experiment though will report back when complete. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dbastin Posted February 18, 2020 Author Share Posted February 18, 2020 (edited) 7 hours ago, rmpfyf said: Most issues with fibre IMHO are at the receive end - timing's as good as what you use to convert back to Ethernet if that's what you've got. Most have an RJ45. And that's probably where most of the PSU noise and jitter nasties emerge. However I am curious if changes on the upstream end of the optical link make any differences. In ethernet audio, the strangest things matter. So my assumption is there is potentially nasties at every link in the chain and the aim is to establish if that is the case and link by link from source moving upstream to reduce the impact of those problems to a tolerable level. Edited February 18, 2020 by dbastin 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest rmpfyf Posted February 18, 2020 Share Posted February 18, 2020 Just now, dbastin said: And that's probably where most of the PSU noise and jitter nasties emerge. Not sure about that but would make for an interesting experiment. If it's reclocking (suspect they are) then slot in a nicer oscillator, make the PSU as genuinely independent as can be, get oscillator power on a nice LDO and Robert is your mother's brother. From a 'clean the stuff upstream' perspective fibre certainly takes care of EMI along the upstream line; you're really just left with timing out. 'Most' of the 'nasties' might emerge there though that's relative to 'how many are left'. You've got to have a problem/opportunity to be able to fix it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Assisi Posted February 18, 2020 Share Posted February 18, 2020 9 hours ago, rmpfyf said: Conversion has no nasties That may depend upon what you define as “nasties”. I have two optical converters and an optical cable. To me there is no question as to whether there is a change with the converters in vs not in. The important question is whether the noticeable to me change is beneficial or not. My personnel preference is the converters in. However, it may be that with the conversions that happen something very small that should be there, is removed from the signal during the conversion processes. Another person who has heard my converters says that to him the dynamics of the sound is reduced very slightly. It is not a big deal but interesting to consider. John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest rmpfyf Posted February 18, 2020 Share Posted February 18, 2020 1 hour ago, Assisi said: That may depend upon what you define as “nasties”. I have two optical converters and an optical cable. To me there is no question as to whether there is a change with the converters in vs not in. The important question is whether the noticeable to me change is beneficial or not. My personnel preference is the converters in. However, it may be that with the conversions that happen something very small that should be there, is removed from the signal during the conversion processes. Another person who has heard my converters says that to him the dynamics of the sound is reduced very slightly. It is not a big deal but interesting to consider. John There are a few schools of approach here. We can keep adding/trying towards better results, and note where steps are directionally correct. This isn't bad at all, it's just not accessible for everyone to trailblaze. We're fortunate that you and others continue to share your journeys to these ends accordingly. Some of the rest of us need to try to pick apart the science/engineering involved to guide choices. To the latter I'd offer that along the optical cable there's bugger all EMI along the line. Assuming the conversion works as a gateway with usual NICs then there's a clock in the converter too, and related hardware that affects, ultimately, packet jitter. That's it IMHO. You're not hearing 'optical', you're hearing packet timing. Optical = directionally correct. Compromised timing = directionally incorrect. Mod your Weiss with an optical NIC and feed it from a 2960's SFP and you'd be closer to seeing what optical can do IMHO Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dbastin Posted February 18, 2020 Author Share Posted February 18, 2020 (edited) For those who dont know what a NIC is ... https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Network_interface_controller I dont know if there is a NIC that can be used outside a computer. I have wondered how to somehow install one of these into an endpoint. https://sonore.us/opticalModule.html Or maybe Sonore or Uptone could make the equivalent of this link but ethernet rather than USB ... https://uptoneaudio.com/products/uspcb-a-b-adapter Edited October 23, 2020 by dbastin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Assisi Posted February 19, 2020 Share Posted February 19, 2020 13 hours ago, rmpfyf said: Mod your Weiss with an optical NIC and feed it from a 2960's SFP and you'd be closer to seeing what optical can do IMHO I will forgo the pleasure of finding out whether what you suggest in respect of a NIC mod would have a benefit. There may be a benefits with modifications. The result that I get from the three 3 Weiss components that are in my system provide for me, a quality outcome without utilising any modifications. John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest rmpfyf Posted February 19, 2020 Share Posted February 19, 2020 1 hour ago, Assisi said: I will forgo the pleasure of finding out whether what you suggest in respect of a NIC mod would have a benefit. There may be a benefits with modifications. The result that I get from the three 3 Weiss components that are in my system provide for me, a quality outcome without utilising any modifications. John John, be imaginative - rather than a call to crack out the soldering iron, I'd tell Weiss they need to up their game with a prototype optical in version of what you have, and that in being a valued customer you'll trial it for them against that which you already have Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Assisi Posted February 19, 2020 Share Posted February 19, 2020 1 minute ago, rmpfyf said: John, be imaginative - rather than a call to crack out the soldering iron, I'd tell Weiss they need to up their game with a prototype optical in version of what you have, and that in being a valued customer you'll trial it for them against that which you already have I like the idea Ric. I will have a conversation with the Weiss Australian representative who talks with Daniel Weiss regularly. Weiss for a long time has preferred Firewire to USB ostensibly because of the additional quality. I do not do Firewire. I wasn't happy when I first got the Network player and had to use an "I" tablet. I saw that as crossing to the dark side. John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dbastin Posted March 2, 2020 Author Share Posted March 2, 2020 (edited) I was reminded of this thread, which got closed, but some good info there ... Oh, and it reminds me of reading about people who sent their Media Convertors to the likes of SOtM to be modified and upgraded, and the variuos imoacts of power supllies and regukators, and DIYers doing the same ... which led me to discover the Sonore Optical Module. Edited March 2, 2020 by dbastin um, tweaks.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hytram Posted March 3, 2020 Share Posted March 3, 2020 If you are running fibre under 300mt and buying from scratch, then use multimode/850nm, it's cheaper and you won't burn out your optical receiver with high light levels Single Mode, which is mainly 1310nm which is designed to run Kms is far more expensive and if you don't attenuate it over short distances it will burn out the receiver over time. Now the question.. Which one sounds better? you are converting electrical to light then back to electrical, more things to introduce problems if not done correctly. Fibre is good for speed and noise rejection, in controlled environments as in data centres, most short distance connections 1G and under are still just Cat6 copper But if you to experiment Fiberstore is a good place to start, some good reading on there too. https://www.fs.com/au/ Hifi is a funny beast, what shouldn't matter does and you might just stumble across something good 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hytram Posted March 3, 2020 Share Posted March 3, 2020 BTW.. Don't look into the ends of any fibre gear, it will take out your eye sight over time.. Also, cap all ends when not in use. Clean ends with either properly designed cleaners or lint free wipes and some isopropyl alcohol. Dust will cause packets loss, multimode is less susceptible to dust than single mode but both will be affected 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dbastin Posted March 5, 2020 Author Share Posted March 5, 2020 Some interesting chat about fibre from page 3 of the Switches Part A thread. One member noted better results with fibre even tho the last libk to streamer isxa filtered SOtM Cat 7. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dbastin Posted March 11, 2020 Author Share Posted March 11, 2020 Some interesting info about use of fibre here On 03/03/2020 at 7:09 PM, Hytram said: Single Mode, which is mainly 1310nm which is designed to run Kms is far more expensive and if you don't attenuate it over short distances it will burn out the receiver over time. It would be great if you could explain a little about attenuators. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dbastin Posted March 11, 2020 Author Share Posted March 11, 2020 For interest, After Dark Constellation SFP modules and fibre cable ... https://www.adark.co/collections/online-shop-special-on-grand-opening/products/copy-of-uptone-etherregen-femto-switch-pre-order-enjoy-worldwide-free-shipping-tax-free BTW, the link does not go to a special deal on ER. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hytram Posted March 12, 2020 Share Posted March 12, 2020 22 hours ago, dbastin said: It would be great if you could explain a little about attenuators. https://community.fs.com/blog/guideline-for-fixed-fiber-optic-attenuator.html https://community.fs.com/blog/basics-of-fiber-optic-attenuator.html some good basic reading there to put it basically singlemode, which 'usually' can be defined by the SFPs being 1310 or 1550nm and the patch leads being yellow its designed for long distances, usually 1km to 100km+ to achieved this that have to pump up the laser power and make the receiver more sensitive over longer distances, the fibre, joints and patches will add attenuation. if the the received level is too low you will get packet loss and errors, to fix that its either a higher power/longer range SFP or fix the fault in the fibre run if thats the cause if the received level is too high, you can shorten the lifespan of the SFP by burnout of the receiver, the articles above say you can also introduce errors into the link, but I have questioned some of our Senior IP Engineers about that and they have never seen it, but we dont do silly things like put in 120km SFP on a 2 mt run anywho, to fix high recieve levels, you need to attenuate the laser, hence attenuators how do you work out what attenuator you need? you need the receiver sensitivity and a power measurement of light received the receiver sensitivity this is stated in the datasheet of the SPF and a power measurement of light received so logging onto the equipment and querying the SFP to state its receive power or using a power meter https://www.fs.com/au/c/optical-power-meter-35 to measure the light coming out of the end of the fibre patch lead before it hits the Rx of the SPF using https://www.fs.com/au/products/12622.html which is the FS equivalent of the After Dark Constellation SFP, its transmit power is -9.5dBm and its Receiver Sensitivity is< -23dBm I would be planning on around 16dBm, so a 7dB attenuator would be needed, one in both directions on a couple meter patch lead this is why you use Multimode on short runs, its a LED based light and you don't have these problems we use 1000s of SPF in our network and now use only Singlemode and attenuate, because we have the know how to do it and means we can just stock less spares 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hytram Posted March 12, 2020 Share Posted March 12, 2020 (edited) On 11/03/2020 at 10:11 PM, dbastin said: For interest, After Dark Constellation SFP modules and fibre cable ... https://www.adark.co/collections/online-shop-special-on-grand-opening/products/copy-of-uptone-etherregen-femto-switch-pre-order-enjoy-worldwide-free-shipping-tax-free BTW, the link does not go to a special deal on ER. the SFPs are Cisco CN8ID42AAA GLC-LH-SM 1Gbps 1000Base-LX/LH Single-Mode Fiber 10km 1310nm Duplex LC Connector SFP Transceiver Module the patch lead is a commscope both good industry leading gear... not sure where they got the "audiophile' tag from though 2 SFP and a 5mt lead $280 AUD here is the Fiberstore equivalent SFP (x2) https://www.fs.com/au/products/12622.html and 5mt lead https://www.fs.com/au/products/68297.html throw in a couple of attenuators https://www.fs.com/au/products/48525.html $53 or go the multimode route 2 x https://www.fs.com/au/c/sfp-transceivers-57 5mt lead https://www.fs.com/au/products/43135.html $38 just be aware looking at what is on that link, the uptone etherregen switch uses cisco compatible SPFs the other end that your are plugging into (a brand "X" switch) will need a brand "x" compatible SFP will any of this make things sound better I don't F-ing know Edited March 12, 2020 by Hytram 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snoopy8 Posted March 12, 2020 Share Posted March 12, 2020 (edited) 1 hour ago, Hytram said: will any of this make things sound better I don't F-ing know Thank you for your posts on SFPs. I do not know enough and likely will not go down that rabbit hole with my EtherREGEN (which I am happy with). Some people say SFPs sound different; I'll pass on that. Edited March 12, 2020 by Snoopy8 Typo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hytram Posted March 12, 2020 Share Posted March 12, 2020 (edited) Yeah, I am a fence sitter and would love to explore this part of the Audio world, but simply don't have the time ATM (maybe 14 days isolation might change that... Not me, yet) But in the mean time, if can help out anyone who wants to experiment and share my knowledge, I am happy to help when I can. My job in the real world is to build the solid foundations so the experts and weave their magic Edited March 12, 2020 by Hytram 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dbastin Posted March 12, 2020 Author Share Posted March 12, 2020 3 hours ago, Hytram said: will any of this make things sound better I don't F-ing know Well, I hope to find out I've not blown $200+ too much. After Dark use the term audiophile a bit too much however in this case they EMI treat the SFP which I assume gains an improvement. Is that worth $200? I'll get 2 stock versions of the same SFPs to compare let you know. I may also compare with the Sonore certified SFPs and fibre too. 3 hours ago, Hytram said: the other end that your are plugging into (a brand "X" switch) will need a brand "x" compatible SFP Aw dang! The rabbit hole has yet another tunnel. I am considering Sonore Optical Module. Sonore has System Optique certified stuff, the fibre cable and SFPs are multi mode though, and they dont have a Contact Us to ask them for compatibilty info ... 4 hours ago, Hytram said: so a 7dB attenuator would be needed, one in both directions on a couple meter patch lead If there is one at the end of each direction, the other half of each connector wont reach into the SFP. So do we assume both attenuators go in the 2 sides of just 1 connector? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dbastin Posted March 12, 2020 Author Share Posted March 12, 2020 I note the ER review on Audiophile Style (referred to above) states ... I settled on the Startech SFP1000ZXST 1550nm/80km transceivers, with a 2m cable. Since these transceivers are designed for long distances (note the 80km rating), I used 10dB attenuators, which also improved SQ. This combination was notably better sounding than the (Sonore SyatemOptique) TP-Link transceivers. With this configuration, the oM leapfrogged the The Linear Solution OCXO switch. (upsteeam of ER). The oM added even more dimensionality, more meat on the bone, while also opening up the soundstage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hytram Posted March 12, 2020 Share Posted March 12, 2020 7 hours ago, dbastin said: I may also compare with the Sonore certified SFPs and fibre too. Aw dang! The rabbit hole has yet another tunnel. I am considering Sonore Optical Module. Sonore has System Optique certified stuff, the fibre cable and SFPs are multi mode though, and they dont have a Contact Us to ask them for compatibilty info ... Sonore look like they use TP lINk SFPs, nothing special "systemOptique Certified SFP module" sounds exotic, its marketing speak for "we plugged it in and it worked" and from https://static.tp-link.com/JetStream - FAQ_Hardware.pdf?configurationId=22931 7 Does the Switch Support the Optical Modules of Other Vendors? Generally, the switch supports the optical modules of other vendors as the TP-Link switches are in accordance with the industrial standard. However, some vendors customize their products for specific purposes and their products may not be compatible with the TP-Link switches. Here you are recommended to choose SFP modules produced by TP-Link, which deliver high speeds while extending your network. so I would say any Generic SFP will work in both https://www.fs.com/au/products/75326.html only the big boys lock their gear down to their own SFPs and there are ways around that 7 hours ago, dbastin said: If there is one at the end of each direction, the other half of each connector wont reach into the SFP. So do we assume both attenuators go in the 2 sides of just 1 connector? from https://community.fs.com/blog/guideline-for-fixed-fiber-optic-attenuator.html How to Use Fixed Fiber Attenuator? As shown in the figure below, fixed fiber optic attenuators should be always installed at the receiver end of the link (X in the drawing). This is because it's more convenient to test the receiver power before and after attenuation or while adjusting it with your power meter at the receiver, plus any reflectance will be attenuated on its path back to the source. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dbastin Posted March 13, 2020 Author Share Posted March 13, 2020 Hmm, it looks like an attenuator will make the connector it is inserted onto a little longer. And if that is correct, then one of the two parts of the connector will be longer than the other, and thus will not fit properly into SFP. Am I missing something? Or maybe installation is not diy? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hytram Posted March 13, 2020 Share Posted March 13, 2020 You have to pop the clip off and yes it makes them offside We pop the clip off all the time, you have to when you 'roll the fibres' which means swapping Tx/Rx on the link, usually when multiple leads are in the link. Some people put the clip back on, I leave it off indicating that the patch lead has been rolled. Or if you are just running one patch lead between the 2 SFPs you could just put both at one end.. If will work fine, you just wouldn't do that over Kms, the attenuators are not directional Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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