New Prototype Dac

[Gieseler Audio]

For streaming I would need to integrate a server/SBC  into the DAC.

Great idea but but not something I'm planing at the moment.

I do actually have a prototype DAC with inbuilt Raspberry Pi running Picore player - sounds good too.

There are still a few issues tho like occasional pops etc so not perfect.

I will certainly revisit it down the track but not for a while - way to busy with building stuff & no time for software support which a streamer would require.

[Eugene.cho]

Looking forward to seeing more Gieseler products

 

Many of us listen to streaming source such as Tidal, would be great to have MQA render build-in.

 

Cheers

[Snoopy8]

32 minutes ago, Eugene.cho said:

Looking forward to seeing more Gieseler products

 

Many of us listen to streaming source such as Tidal, would be great to have MQA render build-in.

Clay has previously stated that MQA licensing is  far too expensive for a small outfit like his. 

 

 

I personally found no difference with MQA using 2L HiRes samples, which all use the same master.  The better sound from MQA tracks on Tidal are because they were using better masters.   

[Eugene.cho]

6 minutes ago, Snoopy8 said:

Clay has previously stated that MQA licensing is  far too expensive for a small outfit like his. 

 

Thanks for the explanation. Should have read all the comments first

[Snoopy8]

8 minutes ago, Eugene.cho said:

Thanks for the explanation. Should have read all the comments first

Would not have expected you to read out about MQA for Gieseler DACs.  It was buried in one of threads on an older model DAC that I happen to have then.  

[Gabehcuod]

Why would you release a band new DAC with a chip that's already outdated other than to save a couple dollars?
People that buy this stuff surprise me.

[Gieseler Audio]

For the record the AK4495 that I’m using is actually more expensive than the AK4493 which would normally 

be used in that series of DAC.

Sure it is a older older model (2015) but it was their flagship chip at the time & IMHO still stacks up very well.

Interestingly Digikey the AKM distributer have 3k+ in stock so I’m guessing it must still be fairly popular for them to stock

that many.

Edited May 17, 2020 by Gieseler Audio
grammer

[naggots]

Hi Clay,

 

is there such a thing as a digital pass through on a dac. I recently acquired a DEQX and find it a little bright and not as musical when compared to Fein2. I was thinking Mac mini to dac, analogue out to my tube amp as normal but also an untouched digital out to the DEQX to correct subs. I know I loose some of the DEQX functionality but maybe I could swap the DEQX for a Mini dsp SHD? Just wondering 

Edited May 16, 2020 by naggots

[pete_mac]

19 hours ago, Gabehcuod said:

Why would you release a band new DAC with a chip that's already outdated other than to save a couple dollars?
People that buy this stuff surprise me.

 

Wow, that's an extremely narrow-minded and misguided comment!

 

Don't you own an Denafrips Ares II - which uses discrete R2R boards? By many accounts (not mine BTW) this is outdated technology. By your logic, you'd better sell up for a DAC featuring the latest and greatest chipset which wins the spec-sheet war.

 

 

Edited May 17, 2020 by pete_mac

[Gabehcuod]

2 hours ago, pete_mac said:

 

Wow, that's an extremely narrow-minded and misguided comment!

 

Don't you own an Denafrips Ares II - which uses discrete R2R boards? By many accounts (not mine BTW) this is outdated technology. By your logic, you'd better sell up for a DAC featuring the latest and greatest chipset which wins the spec-sheet war.

 

People that say this kind of stuff without first engaging their brain really surprise me...

There's a difference between using a different topology and using an outdated chip or FPGA.
Using an outdated chip in a chip DAC is like buying a brand new laptop with a 6th gen CPU. Sure, it might beat a poor implementation but that doesn't change the fact that you should be using the newest tech you can for a price point, especially with DAC technology that is constantly evolving.

 

[JohnL]

14 minutes ago, Gabehcuod said:

There's a difference between using a different topology and using an outdated chip or FPGA.
Using an outdated chip in a chip DAC is like buying a brand new laptop with a 6th gen CPU. Sure, it might beat a poor implementation but that doesn't change the fact that you should be using the newest tech you can for a price point, especially with DAC technology that is constantly evolving.

 

 

"Outdated" can still sound great.

"Newest" can still sound ordinary.

IMHO there are NO guarantees in the audio world.

Edited May 17, 2020 by JohnL

[pete_mac]

28 minutes ago, Gabehcuod said:

There's a difference between using a different topology and using an outdated chip or FPGA.
Using an outdated chip in a chip DAC is like buying a brand new laptop with a 6th gen CPU. Sure, it might beat a poor implementation but that doesn't change the fact that you should be using the newest tech you can for a price point, especially with DAC technology that is constantly evolving.

 

 

Sorry mate, you are so far off the mark that's it's not funny. "Outdated chip" - I think not.

 

I'm not going to derail Clay's thread any further with a debate on this.

 

Edited May 17, 2020 by pete_mac

[Gieseler Audio]

Actually  it did not involve that much time  so I have designed a second version of the new board that will suite the AK4493 chip. That way I can order a small quantity of both versions, build one of each & do some comparison measurement/listening 

tests.

Then whatever performs the best will go into the new model.

However from past experience I find the power supply and output stage has a far bigger influence on the sound than the actual chip used.

[Mute-on]

I really don’t care what the chip is called that Clay chooses to put in this new DAC. If it sounds good (which by all accounts it most certainly will), I’m going to buy one. 

 

I couldn’t care less about MQA either.  Quality of recording, like power supply and output stage in a DAC (as Clay noted), will make more difference than the latest audio acronym ....

[Gabehcuod]

12 minutes ago, Gieseler Audio said:

Actually  it did not involve that much time  so I have designed a second version of the new board that will suite the AK4493 chip. That way I can order a small quantity of both versions, build one of each & do some comparison measurement/listening 

tests.

Then whatever performs the best will go into the new model.

However from past experience I find the power supply and output stage has a far bigger influence on the sound than the actual chip used.

Yeah,
Plus its nice to be able to support Quad Rate DSD for fans of that format. The old chip you were going to use only does DSD64 which is a giant blow to fans of NativeDSD.

[Bill125812]

After owning a few of Clays dac’s (all giant killers) I would put my total faith in what he recommended to me.   Whether it be the newest or the slightly older one.   It’s as simple as that. 

Edited May 17, 2020 by Bill125812

[Martykt]

13 hours ago, Gabehcuod said:

Why would you release a band new DAC with a chip that's already outdated other than to save a couple dollars?
People that buy this stuff surprise me.

Which exact DAC chip are you suggesting he should be using?

The AK4495EQ which @Gieseler Audio is looking at using is still current in the AKM lineup.

[Martykt]

1 hour ago, Gieseler Audio said:

Actually  it did not involve that much time  so I have designed a second version of the new board that will suite the AK4493 chip. That way I can order a small quantity of both versions, build one of each & do some comparison measurement/listening 

tests.

Then whatever performs the best will go into the new model.

However from past experience I find the power supply and output stage has a far bigger influence on the sound than the actual chip used.

It's my understanding that implementation is is quite often more important than what particular DAC chip is used.

 

It does raise the question though would you get much advantage from a substantially more expensive chip like the AK4497 or the flagship AK4499?

[Gieseler Audio]

AKM chips really shine with DSD but this DAC is a basic design & the chip is operating in hardware mode so alas - no DSD.

It is a tough decision but to add DSD I have to run the chip in software mode, add a microprocessor, code & a display.

Now no problem doing that but the added parts & build time certainly bump the price up quite a bit.

This is a very basic design, DAC chip, PSU's & output transformers using top quality parts - result - impressive sound at a entry level price.

I was thinking of doing a second version with display etc but then that would virtually be equivalent to my Fein II so no point.

AK4497/AK4499 yes nice DAC's but I'm saving them for new higher end models which will be happening soon.

 

 

[JohnL]

This particular Thread is the perfect example of why SNA is such a great Forum.

 

Everyone, regardless of personal stance, gets to post their thoughts/concerns on an upcoming product and the actual designer in question happily explains his position and planned product strategies moving forward.........

 

So honest and open........

 

Take a bow all................

 

 

[muon*]

8 hours ago, Gabehcuod said:

There's a difference between using a different topology and using an outdated chip or FPGA.
Using an outdated chip in a chip DAC is like buying a brand new laptop with a 6th gen CPU. Sure, it might beat a poor implementation but that doesn't change the fact that you should be using the newest tech you can for a price point, especially with DAC technology that is constantly evolving.

 

Nup!

 

I use a modded player that uses the TDA1541A, a very old chip and if implemented well it can keep up with many of the latest and greatest.

 

Comparing it to computers is flawed.

 

Edit: Clay makes great DAC's and knows his stuff well, and they are very reasonable priced for what you get in build and performance.

Edited May 17, 2020 by muon*

[bhobba]

On 16/05/2020 at 9:51 PM, Snoopy8 said:

Would not have expected you to read out about MQA for Gieseler DACs.  It was buried in one of threads on an older model DAC that I happen to have then.  

 

I have written a lot about MQA and Clays DAC's in the past.   Just to recap here is the skinny.   When they convert a recording to MQA they determine the frequency above which its all noise.   Bits are chucked away if that frequency is above 48k to ensure its 48k.   If it's all noise then only noise is chucked away.  Then later when played back they guess at the bits chucked way.   Of course if it was all noise above 48k then no guessing is required.  This chucking away and guessing is actually a downsampling and upsampling filter pair, called 'folding' by MQA, and MQA has tons to choose from.   They analyse the audio to determine the best one to use and transmit the one used with the audio.   You can do an internet search and get the gory detail if you like - but it's not really important.   The important thing is when they convert it to MQA very few recordings, I seem to recall less than 1 in 1000, have any significant frequencies above 48k, so the filter used simply chops it off at 48k.   Players like Audirvana that I use output the 48k from MQA, so except in very rare cases it's the same as being played by a MQA DAC anyway.   Bottom line - IMHO its not worth worrying about.

 

Thanks

Bill  

[Jeddie]

@Gieseler Audio

 

Hello Clay,

Just wondering what the approx ETA is of the new Dac?

Not sure if I should get one of your power supplies for my Klein III or wait for your new dac?

[pwstereo]

32 minutes ago, Jeddie said:

Not sure if I should get one of your power supplies for my Klein III or wait for your new dac?

[Gieseler Audio]

Jeddie

ETA on the new DAC 

The pcb's are on the way so hopefully they will arrive late next week.
With Covid-19 restrictions shipping times are a bit unpredictable at the moment.

I currently have a sample case but haven't made a final decision yet so 

that  will delay things slightly.
As soon as the boards arrive I will build up a unit, have a good listen & then I will be

in a better position to see how it compares with the current Klein III.

At this stage and all going well I would think the new model will be available in 3 to 4 weeks.

Definitely worth waiting for as it has quite a few technical improvements and a better slicker 

appearance as well.

 

Edited May 22, 2020 by Gieseler Audio