Vinyl v Digital

[MattyW]

I rather suspect that most people here would lean towards being a sharpener, it's more of a spectrum. That said there's probably plenty of levellers too. One does not have to be a sharpener to be an Audiophile. After all it's all about the enjoyment of music. 

[sir sanders zingmore]

1 hour ago, stereo coffee said:

Yes indeed anonymous people do, but what about you ,  did you try it , if so which did you prefer.

Depends what mood I’m in and when I’m listening and even what I’m listening to. 
I usually prefer the slam and air moved by my speakers. I usually prefer the staging of my speakers but sometimes if I’m listening to music where soundstage is less defined anyway I prefer the purity of the ‘phones (where “purity” refers to lack of room interaction). Sometimes I prefer the music to be “in my head” with ‘phones as it can be more intimate. 

At no point in the above comparisons am I capable of saying the preferences are caused by analog output stages. 
 

EDIT: I know I’ve followed you down this thread diversion, so I’m to blame as well, but what on earth does this all have to do with the topic?

Edited February 4, 2020 by sir sanders zingmore

[stereo coffee]

13 minutes ago, sir sanders zingmore said:

Depends what mood I’m in and when I’m listening and even what I’m listening to. 
I usually prefer the slam and air moved by my speakers. I usually prefer the staging of my speakers but sometimes if I’m listening to music where soundstage is less defined anyway I prefer the purity of the ‘phones (where “purity” refers to lack of room interaction). Sometimes I prefer the music to be “in my head” with ‘phones as it can be more intimate. 

At no point in the above comparisons am I capable of saying the preferences are caused by analog output stages. 
 

EDIT: I know I’ve followed you down this thread diversion, so I’m to blame as well, but what on earth does this all have to do with the topic?

A visual presentation, vs hearing. Entire forums such as ASR do their utmost to convince us with graphs etc   The thing is we get misled in the video and any such  visual treats, telling us our hearing is limited , that hearing above our ability has no purpose etc, all which are quite wrong. We need to turn off the eyes and listen for a few minutes, just to remind ourselves, not to be misled by what we see in such presentations. 

[MattyW]

I've never found a set of headphones yet where the pressure on my head doesn't give me a headache after a half hour to 45 minutes.... I'd listen with them a whole lot more than I do otherwise.

[Hi-Fi Whipped]

Gee, don't threads like this take the fun out of the music! 

[Rob Poort]

Thanks so much to the original poster.

 

Really enjoyed Monty's video explanation.

[Ahh- Schnoo Schnoo]

20 hours ago, Be Quiet...Listen said:

I’m glad someone does. I for one can’t stand it and it’s the Achilles heal of my analogue relationship/obsession. 

@Be Quiet...Listen

 

I started off washing records in the laundry sink. Soon got tired off getting cold and wet, and not listening to music in the small amount of spare time I had. These things led me to spending a disproportionate amount of money, at the time, on a KL Audio Ultrasonic Cleaner. Managed to get one second hand, which made it more affordable.

 

Probably one of the best decisions I've made. I'd suggest to think hard about one, or a similar automatic cleaner.

 

Cheers

[stereo coffee]

33 minutes ago, MattyW said:

I've never found a set of headphones yet where the pressure on my head doesn't give me a headache after a half hour to 45 minutes.... I'd listen with them a whole lot more than I do otherwise.

Try some AKG 701's - they are the most comfortable headphone, for longer listening sessions 

[sir sanders zingmore]

1 hour ago, stereo coffee said:

A visual presentation, vs hearing. Entire forums such as ASR do their utmost to convince us with graphs etc   The thing is we get misled in the video and any such  visual treats, telling us our hearing is limited , that hearing above our ability has no purpose etc, all which are quite wrong. We need to turn off the eyes and listen for a few minutes, just to remind ourselves, not to be misled by what we see in such presentations. 

?

what does that have to do with any of what I said?

[was_a]

The Monty video is fairly simple Chris - digital audio 101 - the next step up from Ohms law! Certainly not misleading in any way. 

 

 

Edited February 4, 2020 by was_a

[stereo coffee]

2 minutes ago, sir sanders zingmore said:

?

what does that have to do with any of what I said?

You are on to it - as you are now describing what you are listening to,

 

1 hour ago, sir sanders zingmore said:

Depends what mood I’m in and when I’m listening and even what I’m listening to. 
I usually prefer the slam and air moved by my speakers. I usually prefer the staging of my speakers but sometimes if I’m listening to music where soundstage is less defined anyway I prefer the purity of the ‘phones (where “purity” refers to lack of room interaction). Sometimes I prefer the music to be “in my head” with ‘phones as it can be more intimate. 

At no point in the above comparisons am I capable of saying the preferences are caused by analog output stages. 
 

EDIT: I know I’ve followed you down this thread diversion, so I’m to blame as well, but what on earth does this all have to do with the topic?

So here you describe music where your soundstage is less defined anyway , and you prefer the purity of the phones where sounds are more intimate . But what if it was the other way around ?  - can we visit there for a brief moment - where your music was better defined  and you prefer the purity of your speakers ,that were more intimate. ?

 

My earlier posts referred to making the audio signal path as simple as possible leaving the CD player, which was in reply to a earlier post ( not yours )  that had compared many digital systems, but strangely had not questioned at all not the equipment between the CD player and power amplifier.

 

I subsequently alerted to comparing the CD player at close hand with headphones to the much longer audio path involving attenuator power amp and speakers to arrive at the suggestion we examine everything in the signal path.  

 

-

 

 

[sir sanders zingmore]

1 minute ago, stereo coffee said:

can we visit there for a brief moment - where your music was better defined  and you prefer the purity of your speakers ,that were more intimate. ?

Once you’ve demonstrated both that the difference in purity is caused by the analog output stage and not by room interaction then I’ll be all ears. 

[stereo coffee]

22 minutes ago, was_a said:

The Monty video is fairly simple Chris - electronics 101 - the next step up from Ohms law! Certainly not misleading in any way. 

Yes it is misleading as it uses wording contrary to the direction electronics and certainly some of the best examples of good sounding equipment  have already taken, and need to continue to take.  

http://www.theabsolutesound.com/articles/harman-kardon-citation-ii-power-amplifier/

 

revealing frequency response to a staggering 270K   - a subjective review describing it as

  "a sound that had a life and a breadth and image depth that were stunning. They were the ultimate in soundstaging and sense of immersion" 

 

Now compare what is being achieved with wide frequency response - with the limitations being OMG, educated in the video.

Similarly the David Blackmer video presented that we need to explore every possibility - the effort to find what we can hear.

 

 

[stereo coffee]

23 minutes ago, sir sanders zingmore said:

Once you’ve demonstrated both that the difference in purity is caused by the analog output stage and not by room interaction then I’ll be all ears. 

No - I am asking you to question what happens from the RCA sockets of the CD player to the loudspeaker in your room -  as this can if not observed,  lead to loss of what we should enjoy, as music.

 

In my experience I attain better audio at the speaker  due to very little or no loss of musical information, as a result of unswerving attention to using the very simplest audio paths. 

 

  

Edited February 4, 2020 by stereo coffee

[sir sanders zingmore]

10 minutes ago, stereo coffee said:

No - I am asking you to question what happens from the RCA sockets of the CD player to the loudspeaker in your room -  as this can if not observed,  lead to loss of what we should enjoy, as music.

 

In my experience I attain better audio at the speaker  due to very little or no loss of musical information, as a result of unswerving attention to using the very simplest audio paths. 

 

  

You aren’t listening. I’m out

[was_a]

Yes, I have to agree with Trevor, Chris. You're sort of all over the place - yet somehow find a way to justify what is a very wayward argument! Obviously it is very important to you to be....certain about something? I'm just not sure what you're being certain about!! 

[jeromelang]

Digital audio playback can be very rewarding. But it will take a bit of "work".

 

- there's a need to erase the player's microprocessor memory before playing each track.

- need to directly cue up desired track to play without leaving memory imprint.

- need to ensure the disc is a first print.

- newly opened optical discs need to be "prepared" for conducive playing.

  Kinda like "run-in". The more they are played(spun), the better they sound.

- from time to time, need to remove residual "static" build-up on the optical disc media.

 

Also, try not to use the remote control, this is because when a player receives infrared command codes, the backend processes can cause disruption to the player's power supply, which may affect soundstaging temporarily.

 

Erasing the player's memory and using the technique of accessing to the track directly without leaving track memory imprint is specific for each brand/model

 

Playing 1st print CDs, erasing player's memory and  using direct-access method of cueing will reward the listener with unprecedented qualities like these:

 

- imaging has more defined outlines.

- there is a palpable solidity to the centre-fill image that leaps out from the woodwork.

- can perceive a full figure body with the centre-fill vocal image

- top-end is airy and well extended.

- clear separation between the reverbs from the main vocals and instruments

  (thus NOT smearing the timbre of voices and instruments)

- there is an effortless ease to the musical flow

 

My experience with optical disc playback with piano recordings:

 

Way back in 2008, , one of my colleagues who worked in the speaker design department, invited me to his house for a listening session. It was in one of those quaint little suburbs in Tokyo, which one has to change trains a couple of times to get there. i wouldn't been able to find it on my own. well, rather excitedly, he wanted to share with me the sonic merits of the SHM CDs (from Universal Music). one of the many universal SHM discs he played was the Keith Jarrett's Koln concert (originally recorded in analogue under the ECM label). We compared it against an earlier german pressing disc he bought while he was stationed in germany many years ago.

 

I let Sugiura (He prefers to be called "Yuki") use the conventional methods first (just hit the play button on the remote). and our first impression was - the shm disc sounded fuller-bodied, compared to the earlier German pressing, which was more distanced.

 

Both discs have constricted soundstaging - the height barely reached the speakers' tweeter position, and imaging was upfront, forward of the speaker baffles. The piano tone on both discs sounded clangy and very dry, and as i didn't know it any better then, since it was my first exposure to Keith Jarrett, i would have said that he was playing an electonic keyboard. Either that, the piano might have been so closely mic'ed, that there was no chance for the venue's reverberations to blossom naturally.

 

I noticed that this German disc have the aluminium silver area covered very close to the spindle hole area (unlike most discs nowadays you see which has a wider band of clear plastic area around the spindle hole). From my experience buying 1st print West Germany made CDs on ebay, i instinctively knew that it wasn't a first print, since the spindle hole area wasn't entirely covered in silver. There was still a 2mm gap of clear plastic around the spindle area. Nevertheless i suggested that my friend sit back and let me do the cueing up (using my special procedure)for the rematch.

 

What I did was - remove the disc. Shut down the player. After about 10 secs, I power it up again. Letting the player read TOC, display the "no disc" sign and settled Then I loaded the disc, and close the drawer, and let it read TOC and settle on "0", as most disc player do. Then 1 finger each on the FORWARD button and the PLAY button, I press them in that order in quick succession. The result - the SHM disc still remained constricted in soundstaging and upfront, and the piano still sound clangy. But the German disc then sounded totally transformed. instead of sounding "distanced", we heard the piano performance receeding further back into the soundstage, very distinct from the huge swathes of reverberation that recreated the feeling that this performance was recorded in a very large space, the height of which we could make out to be close to the ceiling of the listening room, the width extended beyond the boundary of the 3 walls that cocooned around the speaker system. Also what is startling is that we then heard distinctively, the fundamental (basic)notes being hammered, then followed by myriad harmonics of the resonating strings interacting and modulating against each other, and then blosooming into a magical sonic cushion of sound in a large cavenous hall, as 3 separate and distinct entities. As we tried each discs again back and forth (using my specific procedure), it became very clear that the shm disc sounded hard and lifeless. loud climaxes sounded constricted, while fundamental notes, the harmonics and subsequent reverberation don't quite "separate" as they should. This is something the SHM CD has failed to do and something my friend didn't realised until he heard an earlier CD pressing, albiet a subsequent pressing, but made and released by the original german label compared against it.

 

I also tried playing the german disc again using the conventional cueing method. When i did that, the piano started to sound clangy again, the soundstage collasped, and the individual notes and reverberation no longer sound as separate entities. Cueing the disc using conventional method to play in this way made the german disc sound as lifeless as the shm CD.

 

Jump to march 2010, I went back for a rematch. This time, armed with the true first pressing, West Germany made CD that i managed to find on ebay. This original first pressing have the spindle hole area covered entirely in silver. The disc track listing also differs from subsequent pressing and shm CD in that it contains only 3 tracks. The last track, which is available on the other 2 later CD discs, and also available on the 2-disc gatefold LP, had been omitted from this first pressing CD disc. We compared all 3 CD disc, again using the above mentioned procedure. Needless to say, the sense of the separation is even more vivid on this first pressing disc.

 

However, when we played the disc a second time (exact same method), the piano, while still sounding deep into the cavenous, reverberant stage, now has more focus, more palpable weightage, surrounded by a rich tapestries of sound moulded by the interplay of the resonating strings using the pedals and holding down the keys. For the whole of 25 minutes as we sat fixated, listening to the first track of this first pressing disc, a profound and transcendant drama unfolded as we savour the grandeur and sweep of Jarrett's playing in his prime.

 

I use 2 methods of removing residual static build-up on optical discs:

 

1)  Leave the optical disc lying on a shakti stone.

 

2) Rinse the optical disc under tap water. Flick off excess water and play. No wiping the disc dry with fabrics under any situation. 

    If need be, I can also use a high speed spinner to spun my optical disc dry. 

 

For the system, the Denson demag disc does wonder keeping them clean, fresh and dynamic.

Edited February 4, 2020 by jeromelang

[aussievintage]

Time to close the thread... 

[rantan]

1 minute ago, aussievintage said:

Time to close the thread... 

 +1

Thank god it wasn't just me.

[was_a]

12 minutes ago, jeromelang said:

Erasing the player's memory and using the technique of accessing to the track directly without leaving track memory imprint is specific for each brand/model

Wonderful! Thanks for your contribution and extensive write-up. 

 

Yes, clearing a disc-player's memory does reap rewards on close listening. As you say, solo piano becomes fuller and less clangy. I must say I'm not as worried about static etc as you are, but everything makes a small difference in my experience.

 

Thanks again. 

[andyr]

7 hours ago, Peter-E said:

 

Of course if I was rich I would buy higher quality. But would I hear that quality is my point.
 

 

The only answer to that, Peter, is ... you need to spend time listening to other Adelaidian SNA members' systems.  (Take along the source material you are used to listening to.) 

 

I believe you would  notice differences - as the difference between system A and system B is not just how well they deliver HFs.

 

Andy

 

[Wimbo]

5 hours ago, MattyW said:

After all it's all about the enjoyment of music.

You can enjoy music on an AM radio. Don't need to be an Audiophiliac.

[Hi-Fi Whipped]

42 minutes ago, rantan said:

 +1

Thank god it wasn't just me.

+3 another example of starts as fun ends in boredom!

[Wimbo]

8 hours ago, Peter-E said:

Of course if I was rich I would buy higher quality. But would I hear that quality is my point.

Regardless of your ear quality and frequency extremes.

If you can hear, you can hear the difference relative to your limitation.

[MattyW]

26 minutes ago, Wimbo said:

You can enjoy music on an AM radio. Don't need to be an Audiophiliac.

My understanding is that someone being an audiophile is more to do with the enjoyment of music than any system requirements. So an audiophile could very well listen primarily through an AM radio,  or even a clock radio for that matter.