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tesla13BMW

Using Dr Fieckert with Linn Ittok / Ecos

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So how do you do it?

 

Seems the reason for a good protractor is to perform the alignment accurately and repeatably.  But, Step 1 is to set the pivot to spindle distance on the protractor to 211mm and align the pin to the pivot point of the arm.  So where is the pivot point on a Ittok / Ecos?  I don't see best guess as suitable!  Nor any other means of determining the pivot point.  

 

So if you can't use Step 1, can you still use step 2 and 3?  If so I assume the platter and protractor must not be moved only the arm?

 

Cheers, Chris.

 

P.S.  Spindle to pivot distance has been set with Kinky tool.

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Hi Chris. I have the Akito and the Dr F.  I simply measured from the spindle to the centre of the tonearm where the x and y axis meet. That measured 211mm exactly so assumed must be correct and seemed to work well for me setting the cart up. This is where the writing is on the tonearm. Cheers, Rod.

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@rodders3 this is what I did also.  Then I went and re checked it and the stylus was no longer on the cross hair.

 

It doesn't take much of an "error" in positioning the pointer on the "unknown" pivot for the overhang to be off.  But, I guess the real question is how accurate does it need to be seeing as alignment is only minimising the average error across the arc.

 

The best I can see is to site down the arm tube and measure half way across the flat of the arm (where the writing is).  Mark this with the smallest bit of blue tack.  Then get the Dr F pointer above this point and rotate the arm.  If the blue tack does not stay aligned with the tip of the Dr F pointer it needs to be moved so that it does.  Just seems inaccurate.

 

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5 hours ago, tesla13BMW said:

So how do you do it?

 

Seems the reason for a good protractor is to perform the alignment accurately and repeatably.  But, Step 1 is to set the pivot to spindle distance on the protractor to 211mm and align the pin to the pivot point of the arm.

 

I've not used a Feickert protractor so I've no idea whether I'm on the right track ... or waaay off course!  :)  But are you shure you set the protractor to pivot-to-spindle distance ... or eff. length (which is pivot-to-stylus distance)?

 

5 hours ago, tesla13BMW said:

So where is the pivot point on a Ittok / Ecos?

 

If this is hard to determine ... maybe a Feickert is not suitable for an Ekos?

 

5 hours ago, tesla13BMW said:

I don't see best guess as suitable!

 

Absoloootely not!  :)

 

5 hours ago, tesla13BMW said:

 

So if you can't use Step 1, can you still use step 2 and 3?

 

I would suspect not!  :(

 

Why not get hold of an 'Accutrak' arc protractor.  Ken Willis will be able to make one suitable for your Ekos.  (I've bought 3 off him - they're about USD50, I think.  One for my Graham 2.2 - when I had it, one for my Univector 12" and one for my Magnepan Unitrac.

 

Andy

 

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11 minutes ago, andyr said:

 

I've not used a Feickert protractor so I've no idea whether I'm on the right track ... or waaay off course!  :)  But are you shure you set the protractor to pivot-to-spindle distance ... or eff. length (which is pivot-to-stylus distance)?

 

 

If this is hard to determine ... maybe a Feickert is not suitable for an Ekos?

 

 

Absoloootely not!  :)

 

 

I would suspect not!  :(

 

Why not get hold of an 'Accutrak' arc protractor.  Ken Willis will be able to make one suitable for your Ekos.  (I've bought 3 off him - they're about USD50, I think.  One for my Graham 2.2 - when I had it, one for my Univector 12" and one for my Magnepan Unitrac.

 

Andy

 

Andy, I had a look at the Accutrak and it looks like great value.  How do you place the protractor on the platter in the "correct" position?  Does it neet to align with some point on the turntable?

 

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16 minutes ago, andyr said:

 

I've not used a Feickert protractor so I've no idea whether I'm on the right track ... or waaay off course!  :)  But are you shure you set the protractor to pivot-to-spindle distance ... or eff. length (which is pivot-to-stylus distance)?

It is pivot to spindle.  So you set the graduated arm to 211mm and then place the DrF on the spindle and align the pointer to the pivot.  But the Ittok and Ekos don't have a definitive pivot point to line up to.

 

19 minutes ago, andyr said:

Why not get hold of an 'Accutrak' arc protractor.  Ken Willis will be able to make one suitable for your Ekos.  (I've bought 3 off him - they're about USD50, I think.  One for my Graham 2.2 - when I had it, one for my Univector 12" and one for my Magnepan Unitrac.

 

Well I may, but, I was hoping that the null points on the DrF may be equivalent of null points on a arc protractor in that you can't get both to align unless the overhang is correct and that the pivot to spindle is correct.  I'm guessing the DrF null points are no worse than a universal two point protractor.

 

Comparing what I achieved with the DrF with "best guess of pivot point" with a printed Linn paper protractor they are very very similar, but, that could be they are both inaccurate.  But, is this accurate enough?

 

The Ekos isn't too bad in that I use a Linn Akiva and therefore with kore, Ekos and Akiva there is only the slack in cartridge bolts that give me any adjustment anyway.  But, the Ittok with K9 or Asak needs the protractor.

 

Now people will be asking "why don't you think the alignment is right?"  And I don't know if it isn't, but, the mid 80's pre cirkus, valhalla, ittok K9 just sounds so many worlds apart from a Karmen, kore, SSP12, tranquility, Ekos mk1, akiva, Lingo that I want to be sure small inaccuracies in alignment aren't letting the old girl down.

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5 hours ago, tesla13BMW said:

But, I guess the real question is how accurate does it need to be seeing as alignment is only minimising the average error across the arc.

 

This is true.  There are many, or rather, there is a range of,  alignments that will not be audibly discernible from each other.

 

10 minutes ago, tesla13BMW said:

Well I may, but, I was hoping that the null points on the DrF may be equivalent of null points on a arc protractor in that you can't get both to align unless the overhang is correct and that the pivot to spindle is correct.  I'm guessing the DrF null points are no worse than a universal two point protractor.

 

This is why I don't see the point in these fancy protractors. You don't need pivot to know spindle distance, or be able to find the pivot point, or even know the overhang.  All you need is to align to a two point protractor to know you have the alignment spot-on.   The only thing a fancy protractor can do to help, is MAYBE make it easier.  Here, it is making the job harder and more complex.

 

15 minutes ago, tesla13BMW said:

Comparing what I achieved with the DrF with "best guess of pivot point" with a printed Linn paper protractor they are very very similar, but, that could be they are both inaccurate.  But, is this accurate enough?

I would say so, yes.  Play a few records.  If it all sounds good, you've done the job !  :sorcerer:

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1 hour ago, PKay said:

 

Andy, I had a look at the Accutrak and it looks like great value.  How do you place the protractor on the platter in the "correct" position?  Does it need to align with some point on the turntable?

 

 

Peter, the protractor is basically a quadrant with a hole in one corner which fits over the spindle.  (Generally) you will have 3 arcs on the protractor:

  • Baerwald
  • Loefgren, and
  • Stevenson alignments.

Sometimes Ken fits a 4th arc on - if the arm mfr has their own 'special' alignment.

 

You simply place the stylus on the arc, at the outer end of the arc.  Then, without moving the protractor, you place the stylus on the inner end of the arc.  If the stylus is in the right place ... it will follow the arc from its outer end to the inner end.

 

But if it ends up, at the inside end of the arc, on one side of the arc - then you need to adjust the position of the cart in the headshell; the protractor instructions tell you whether you need to move it towards or away from the pivot point.

 

It's dead simple!  :)

 

Once you've got the stylus tracking the arc then you place the cart on the 2 cross-hatched areas and make sure the offset is right (of course, if you adjust the twist ... you may move the stylus off the arc!  :( ).

 

Andy

 

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54 minutes ago, aussievintage said:

This is true.  There are many, or rather, there is a range of,  alignments that will not be audibly discernible from each other.

 

What is not audible to one listener may well be picked up by another.  :)  I suggest you read the late great Allen Wright's most interesting  "white paper" on cart alignment.  :lol:

 

54 minutes ago, aussievintage said:

This is why I don't see the point in these fancy protractors. You don't need pivot to know spindle distance, or be able to find the pivot point, or even know the overhang.  All you need is to align to a two point protractor to know you have the alignment spot-on.   The only thing a fancy protractor can do to help, is MAYBE make it easier.

 

An arc protractor makes it much quicker (than a 2-point protractor) - it may also give a more accurate result - as it enables you to clearly see whether the stylus is on top of the arc ... all the way along the arc.

 

54 minutes ago, aussievintage said:

Play a few records.  If it all sounds good, you've done the job !  :sorcerer:

 

To some people, "good enough" ... is not the aim!  :lol:  "Optimal " is.

 

Andy

 

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7 hours ago, tesla13BMW said:

Cheers, Chris.

 

P.S.  Spindle to pivot distance has been set with Kinky tool.

Haven't you got one of these then Chris..??

 

IMG_1060.jpg.dbdd41f46eb1ae957574d3030e7da462.jpg 

 

Unless you want to mess around with different alignments this is the way to go IMO...

Can be had off the Bay too..

 

Tase

Edited by Tasebass

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15 minutes ago, andyr said:

To some people, "good enough" ... is not the aim!  :lol:  "Optimal " is.

There is no "optimal".  Each person has their own preference for a particular alignment strategy, but each choice gives on one hand and takes on the other.  Lower average error, does not necessarily sound best if you are playing loud orchestral passages close to the label, for example.

Edited by aussievintage

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14 hours ago, Tasebass said:

Haven't you got one of these then Chris..??

 

IMG_1060.jpg.dbdd41f46eb1ae957574d3030e7da462.jpg 

 

Unless you want to mess around with different alignments this is the way to go IMO...

Can be had off the Bay too..

 

Tase

Hi Tase

 

No I do not.  Although I have downloaded an Ittok one from vinyl engine to compare with what I achieved with the DrF.  But, doesn't Linn follow Baerwald anyway?

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On 29/01/2020 at 9:44 AM, tesla13BMW said:

Hi Tase

 

No I do not.  Although I have downloaded an Ittok one from vinyl engine to compare with what I achieved with the DrF.  But, doesn't Linn follow Baerwald anyway?

To quote @metal beat the manufacturer of the arm knows the alignment best....all thats needed is the above protractor ............ unless you want to play around with different alignments...

 

Tase.

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On 01/02/2020 at 7:33 AM, Tasebass said:

To quote @metal beat the manufacturer of the arm knows the alignment best....all thats needed is the above protractor ............ unless you want to play around with different alignments...

 

Tase.

Indeed, but..... I already have a Dr Fieckert and readings say that Linn follow Baerwald.  If one can't gaurantee the position of the tonearm pivot point to set the overhang with Dr F, can the two points of the Dr F still be used (Baerwald) for the exact same result?  Reasoning being "there is only one cartridge position where the stylus will align with both points".

 

I guess the only way to know will be to get the protractor and compare.

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On 04/02/2020 at 10:37 AM, tesla13BMW said:

 

 

I guess the only way to know will be to get the protractor and compare.

...Thats what i would do....

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11 hours ago, PKay said:

@PKay this is essentially the same as the DrF with the same issue of not knowing exactly where the arm pivot point is.

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