Cartridge overhang Technics SL-1210GR wrong or right? SOLVED!

[rockpig]

Hi Guys
Was helping a friend check the setup of his new Technics SL-1210GR with a Ortofon Quintet blue cart.

The cart had been fitted to the head shell by the retail store using the supplied gauge which fits onto the back of the head shell and indicates where the stylus tip should be.

 

However, when I checked the over hang with my Dr. Feickert Protractor NG (which I have used many times) it indicated the over hang was around 5mm too short. (meaning the cart needed to be further forward)

I did not expect such a large difference so I triple checked that the protractor was setup correctly, and it was.

So we re-adjusted the over hang as per the Dr. Feickert Protractor NG

Did a listen test on outer and inner tracks and it seemed to both of us that the cart sounded better.

 

Still puzzled as to why there is a 5mm difference between the Technics supplied gauge and the Dr F.

Internet searches proved unfruitful so asking if any of you can shed some light on this?

Edited January 10, 2020 by rockpig
typo

[aussievintage]

9 minutes ago, rockpig said:

Hi Guys
Was helping a friend check the setup of his new Technics SL-1210GR with a Ortofon Quintet blue cart.

The cart had been fitted to the head shell by the retail store using the supplied gauge which fits onto the back of the head shell and indicates where the stylus tip should be.

 

However, when I checked the over hang with my Dr. Feickert Protractor NG (which I have used many times) it indicated the over hang was around 5mm too short. (meaning the cart needed to be further forward)

I did not expect such a large difference so I triple checked that the protractor was setup correctly, and it was.

So we re-adjusted the over hang as per the Dr. Feickert Protractor NG

Did a listen test on outer and inner tracks and it seemed to both of us that the cart sounded better.

 

Still puzzled as to why there is a 5mm difference between the Technics supplied gauge and the Dr F.

Internet searches proved unfruitful so asking if any of you can shed some light on this?

 

Perhaps the variation is due to the alignment type you chose vs  the one that Technics used.  Baerwald vs Stevensen perhaps   for example.

 

I never go by overhang alone anyway.  Apart from the doubt, getting perfect alignment of the cantilever with the headshell is difficult.

[andyr]

25 minutes ago, rockpig said:

Still puzzled as to why there is a 5mm difference between the Technics supplied gauge and the Dr F.

Internet searches proved unfruitful so asking if any of you can shed some light on this?

 

 

13 minutes ago, aussievintage said:

 

Perhaps the variation is due to the alignment type you chose vs  the one that Technics used.  Baerwald v. Stevensen perhaps for example.

 

 

Possibly ... but IME one of the common alignments vs. another doesn't produce that great an overhang difference (the OP mentioned ~5mm).

 

13 minutes ago, aussievintage said:

 

I never go by overhang alone anyway.  Apart from the doubt, getting perfect alignment of the cantilever with the headshell is difficult.

 

 

I certainly do (go by overhang).  But then, of course, you need to make sure the cart has the correct offset alignment, after you've correctly set front/back alignment.

 

I've used arc protractors for my arms, for a couple of decades; these make correct cart alignment a doddle. 

 

Andy

 

[Ian McP]

https://www.pearl-hifi.com/06_Lit_Archive/07_Misc_Downloads/Tonearm_Setup_Audio.pdf

[aussievintage]

 

1 hour ago, andyr said:

I certainly do (go by overhang).  But then, of course, you need to make sure the cart has the correct offset alignment, after you've correctly set front/back alignment.

 

 

I actually meant going by overhang alone, and trying to manually make to the cartridge cantilever align with the headshell itaelf.  At least with the arc protractor, you get to align the cart with a grid as well.

 

1 hour ago, andyr said:

I've used arc protractors for my arms, for a couple of decades; these make correct cart alignment a doddle. 

 

They certainly do.  It's just that,  when you have many different turntables, and keep buying more   ,  it pays to be able to use a generic 2-point protractor.    I have become so familiar with using them now, even they are a "doddle" as well 

[aussievintage]

1 hour ago, andyr said:

Possibly ... but IME one of the common alignments vs. another doesn't produce that great an overhang difference (the OP mentioned ~5mm).

 

Been thinking about this.  I think that much difference IS possible, just maybe, if some twisting of the cart in the headshell also occurs.

[rockpig]

Thank you for the input so far.
I think some photos will make the issue clearer.

I did not take photos at the time so I have simulated the issue by using my very old different TT & cart.

PLEASE NOTE THE PHOTOS BELOW ARE SIMULATIONS AND NOT OF THE ACTUAL TT, HEADSHELL & CART IN QUESTION.

 

Baerwald, Lofgren & Stevensen options are on the protractor and regardless of which one we compared the Technics gauge setting to, it was still between 4 - 6mm short of the Dr. F protractor.

 

The 1st image shows the Dr. F protractor setup and positioned correctly.

In the 2nd image the green dot highlights the location of the stylus.

3-5 images show the cart at the 3 setting positions. Aim point is marked with a circles on the protractor. 

In all images the stylus is in the down position and resting on the protractor. 

 

 

 

 

Edited January 10, 2020 by rockpig
clarify

[kelossus]

Is it the correct headshell for the tonearm? I had.a Jelco Tonearm  that had an odd headshell in it and I couldn't get the cartridge far enough forward. Once I bought a factory headshell it worked perfect.

 

Edit: Sorry just reread the original post. The turntable is brand new so it would have the original head shell.

Edited January 10, 2020 by kelossus

[andyr]

4 hours ago, rockpig said:

 

Hi Guys
Was helping a friend check the setup of his new Technics SL-1210GR with a Ortofon Quintet blue cart.

The cart had been fitted to the head shell by the retail store using the supplied gauge which fits onto the back of the head shell and indicates where the stylus tip should be.

 

However, when I checked the over hang with my Dr. Feickert Protractor NG (which I have used many times) it indicated the over hang was around 5mm too short. (meaning the cart needed to be further forward)

I did not expect such a large difference so I triple checked that the protractor was setup correctly, and it was.

So we re-adjusted the over hang as per the Dr. Feickert Protractor NG

Did a listen test on outer and inner tracks and it seemed to both of us that the cart sounded better.

 

 

Me - I would go with what the Feickert says! 

 

But maybe your friend should invest in an arc protector (like the Ken Willis "Accutrac") - cheaper than your Feickert?

 

Andy

 

[rockpig]

12 minutes ago, andyr said:

 

Me - I would go with what the Feickert says! 

 

But maybe your friend should invest in an arc protector (like the Ken Willis "Accutrac") - cheaper than your Feickert?

 

Andy

 

Hi Andy

That is what we did, set it per the Feickert.
Happy to help friends with TT setup using my Dr. F and electronics scales, so no need for them to buy their own. But will look into your recommendation.

Edited January 10, 2020 by rockpig
typo

[andyr]

1 hour ago, rockpig said:

Hi Andy

That is what we did, set it per the Feickert.
Happy to help friends with TT setup using my Dr. F and electronics scales, so no need for them to buy their own. But will look into your recommendation.

 

The Feickert is expensive ... but can be used with any arm.

 

An arc protractor is (relatively) inexpensive - and can be used to set cart alignment accurately and very quickly ... but can only be used with one-length arm.

 

Andy

 

[Pegasus]

That's not the correct headshell. The Technics is supplied with its own Technics headshell.

I installed an Ortofon Bronze on an SL-1210G not that long ago.

You need a good magnifying lense to get the alignment correct.

I double-checked it with a Fierkert and it was correct.

[aussievintage]

2 hours ago, Pegasus said:

That's not the correct headshell. The Technics is supplied with its own Technics headshell.

I installed an Ortofon Bronze on an SL-1210G not that long ago.

You need a good magnifying lense to get the alignment correct.

I double-checked it with a Fierkert and it was correct.

Big note in red in that post says

 

PLEASE NOTE THE PHOTOS BELOW ARE SIMULATIONS AND NOT OF THE ACTUAL TT, HEADSHELL & CART IN QUESTION.

 

I was mislead at first as well.

[rockpig]

Issue solved!

 

My friend with the TT in question found a review which explains the 5mm difference in overhang.

Full article here: https://www.audioappraisal.com/technics-sl-1200gr-sl-1210gr-turntable-review/

 

Below is extract which answered my question...

 

Quote

 

Cartridge Alignment

The supplied headshell weighs 7.6 grams and is virtually identical in appearance to the original, though with a rougher texture. I setup the arm using the Technics overhang tool, which if used correctly places the stylus tip 52 mm from the rubber washer at the rear of the headshell and set perfectly straight. This results in a 15 mm overhang with a 22 degree offset built into the arm, aligning to Technics’ inner and outer null points of 58.8 and 113.5MM. This gives a maximum tracking error of 2.13 degrees, peak distortion of 0.761% and average RMS distortion of 0.5%.

 

Many prefer to align to the Lofgren A standard with the IEC 1958 / RIAA 1963 standard null points of 66 and 120.9MM. This lengthens the overhang to 17.8 mm and necessitates a slight twist of the cartridge in the headshell. The figures are only slightly better; 1.86 degrees of maximum tracking error, 0.64% peak distortion and 0.417% RMS distortion. While these figures are lower, the difference is minimal.

 

And in my experience, using a Technics arm with a Lofgren A alignment can inhibit the arm’s ability to track warps as well as it can, and usually increases surface noise to a degree. Both issues override any minimal gain that might be had from the minor differences in distortion figures, and I find it best to stick to the alignment Technics intend. I also recommend the overhang tool supplied in the box as it is more than good enough if used with care, and you can always check your work with a decent ruler or digital caliper to be sure.

 

 

 

 

[Tasebass]

On 10/01/2020 at 6:02 PM, andyr said:

 

The Feickert is expensive ... but can be used with any arm.

Andy

 

...Difficult with our Univector Andy....or others with arm leads exiting from the top IMO...Unless your game moving very delicate wires that is...

As you say best to use an arc protractor.......... in certain cases...

 

 

Tase...

Edited January 11, 2020 by Tasebass

[andyr]

5 minutes ago, Tasebass said:

...Difficult with our Univector Andy....or others with arm leads exiting from the top IMO...Unless your game moving very delicate wires that is...

As you say best to use an arc protractor.......... in certain cases...

 

 

Tase...

 

Good point, Tase.

 

My preference is an arc protractor (specific for each arm which I have).

 

Andy

 

[metal beat]

I generally use the alignment that comes with the tonearm as generally the designer knows what sounds best with their tonearm.   Loef and baer are not the be all and end all.

  VPI and Graham have their own alignment.

 

Having any type of twist in the headshell/cartridge is never a good idea when playing records.

 

Technics like most japanese tonearms from the 70's use a Stevenson "like" alignment where the least tracking error is in the last 3rd of the LP.

Edited January 11, 2020 by metal beat

[aussievintage]

7 minutes ago, metal beat said:

I generally use the alignment that comes with the tonearm as generally the designer knows what sounds best with their tonearm.   Loef and baer are not the be all and end all.

  VPI and Graham have their own alignment.

 

Having any type of twist in the headshell/cartridge is never a good idea when playing records.

 

Technics like most japanese tonearms from the 70's use a Stevenson "like" alignment where the least tracking error is in the last 3rd of the LP.

 

Yep, there's no magic in the classic "alignments".  It's just choosing where you want your null points.   You should feel free to choose your null points as you want.  There are even spreadsheets around to let you experiment.  If slightly more error at one point on a record is less audible to you, you can trade it off against minimising the error somewhere else.

 

Disagree about the twisting though.   If twisting the cart in the headshell allows proper alignment, it's fine to do it.  The cart is NOT twisted as far as the playing of the record is concerned, it is perfectly aligned.   It's just a visual thing seeing it not parallel to the headshell.

 

With regard to the Japanese use of "Stevenson" or close to it, I agree with their apparent reasoning.  Getting the tracking error minimised in the last part of the record is often the best thing to give priority to.  It's the part of a record where a small error can most easily cause audible distortion, especially with the tendency - probably started in the 70s - for engineers to fill a record up.  I have examples that go nearly up to the label.

[U2_SNA]

Who carries the SL-1210GR in Sydney Metro?

[josh0571]

4 hours ago, U2_SNA said:

Who carries the SL-1210GR in Sydney Metro?

Store DJ and Len Wallis - see here:

 

https://www.technics.com/au/where-to-buy/

[U2_SNA]

Thank you Josh.