andyr Posted August 7, 2017 Share Posted August 7, 2017 25 minutes ago, Owen Y said: Just an aside about MC SUTs:: As MC cartridge output voltage is generally proportional to coil impedance. (ie the no. of coil windings) & higher gain SUTs are generally used with lower output cartridges AIUI, cart output is directly proportional to the no. of coil windings - ie. coil impedance. 25 minutes ago, Owen Y said: eg: - A 0.6mV output MC might have 10 ohm coil imped & works nicely with say a 1:15 to 1:20 gain SUT, which will present a 470 -117 ohm load when connected to standard 47k phono input. - Whereas a low 0.2mV output MC would likely have only ~5 ohm coil imped & needs a higher gain 1:30 to 1:40 SUT, which would deliver a 50 - 30 ohm load. Given an MM phono stage is designed to cope with the 'standard' 5mV output of a MM cart ... a 0.6mV output MC needs to be multiplied by 8 to 10 - ie. a 1:8 to 1:10 gain SUT. This presents a 734 - 470 ohm load when connected to standard 47k phono input. Which is not a bad thing, IMO - see below. A low 0.2mV output MC needs to be multiplied by 20 to 30 - ie. a 1:20 to 1:30 gain SUT. This presents a 117 - 52 ohm load when connected to standard 47k phono input. 25 minutes ago, Owen Y said: Thus both of the above combos will provide a source-load ratio in the ideal 1:5 to 1:10 range. This is one of the nice things about SUTs. Sure, "ideal" if you believe a source-load ratio of 5-10 is ideal! Given that the rule of thumb for Zin vs. Zout of electronic components is "a minimum of 10x" - and 100x is preferable - I don't see how 1:5 can be considered "ideal" for a cart. The specs for my Benz LP (coil impedance 38 ohms) are: 500 - 47K. And in fact Mr Lucaschek's own phono stage only offers 47K! So he certainly doesn't believe in 5-10x!! After trying out quite a few different loadings, I used 3K3 for a number of years - but later moved to 4K7. So <100 and >100 times coil impedance - certainly not 10x! The coils were recently replaced during a retip - the new value of the impedance is 14.7 ohms. As a result, I tried out some different loadings - 800, 1500 & 2200 ohms. The best sound was delivered by 1500 ohms ... smack on 100x the coil impedance! So I would suggest people should try out a loading of 50 - 100x their coil impedance ... to see how their cart sounds. Trouble is, a SUT won't let them do this (you need a head amp, which will typically have a default loading of 47K). Andy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Owen Y Posted August 7, 2017 Share Posted August 7, 2017 (edited) 2 hours ago, andyr said: AIUI, cart output is directly proportional to the no. of coil windings - ie. coil impedance. Not exactly, as it depends on many cartr design variables - such as magnets, flux density, geometric config of the generator, coil former material, wire type/size, etc etc. (eg the Benz uses non magnetically permeaable coil formers, I believe, hence it needs a lot more coil winding to produce its output, with consequent higher coil impedances.) Any active source needs a load in order to deliver power & this load can be as low a 3x source imped (eg amplifier power valves). (With MC carts, I've happily used as low as 10x coil imped.) However, the main aim of loading MCs is mainly concerned with damping magnetic generator resonance - not power efficiency or distortion. Of course, a phono stage ideally should allow variable input imped. [Sorry, end of digression.] Cheers, Owen http://darklanternforowen.wordpress.com/ Edited August 7, 2017 by Owen Y 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mwhouston Posted August 7, 2017 Share Posted August 7, 2017 I have been thinking about winding my one SUT. With the info above I may have a go. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caminperth Posted August 10, 2017 Share Posted August 10, 2017 Dusty as, but I don't care.. this thing sounds fantastic straight out of the box.. can't wait for it to bed in!! 7 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
metal beat Posted August 18, 2017 Author Share Posted August 18, 2017 Etna SL 15 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rossb Posted August 18, 2017 Share Posted August 18, 2017 2 minutes ago, metal beat said: Etna SL Nice! Also: expensive! How is it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
metal beat Posted August 18, 2017 Author Share Posted August 18, 2017 (edited) 32 minutes ago, rossb said: Nice! Also: expensive! How is it? thanks. only playing first side after nervously setting up only the 2nd cart on the Thales sounds pretty magical especially with vocals off the bat - this is a keeper. Reinforces that my Atlas needed to go to Lyra for a rebuild after 5 1/2 years of pure pleasure. Expensive - yes - however I find expensive is when you don't play something and end up selling it. hard to get off that merry go round sometimes. Lyra for me has never been that. cheers Edited August 18, 2017 by metal beat 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Hensa Posted August 18, 2017 Share Posted August 18, 2017 Looks stunning, Shane! How does it compare with the Atlas which I assume was your benchmark? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
metal beat Posted August 18, 2017 Author Share Posted August 18, 2017 1 minute ago, Hensa said: Looks stunning, Shane! How does it compare with the Atlas which I assume was your benchmark? thanks Greg. too early for that comparison but its in the same class. I am just enjoying spinning some vinyl after a week away. cheers 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hergest Posted August 18, 2017 Share Posted August 18, 2017 38 minutes ago, metal beat said: Reinforces that my Atlas needed to go to Lyra for a rebuild after 5 1/2 years of pure pleasure. That's a bloody good innings! I've never heard a Lyra in all the years I've been doing this. I really should give one a go. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
metal beat Posted August 18, 2017 Author Share Posted August 18, 2017 3 minutes ago, Hergest said: That's a bloody good innings! I've never heard a Lyra in all the years I've been doing this. I really should give one a go. Lyra well looked after can do at least 3000 hours. the Etna is my first cartridge purchase since Feb 2012 (except my cheap AT33MONO and Delos I use on another table). I could not wait the up to 6 months for the Atlas to be rebuilt as a SL. perhaps you should give them a go Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AussieMick Posted August 18, 2017 Share Posted August 18, 2017 Etna SL I am drooling. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Hensa Posted August 18, 2017 Share Posted August 18, 2017 thanks Greg. too early for that comparison but its in the same class. I am just enjoying spinning some vinyl after a week away. cheers And I'm thinking short odds that what you're hearing is as good as most of what you heard in HK - and better than evens in terms of musical content![emoji3]Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Hensa Posted August 18, 2017 Share Posted August 18, 2017 Lyra well looked after can do at least 3000 hours. the Etna is my first cartridge purchase since Feb 2012 (except my cheap AT33MONO and Delos I use on another table). I could not wait the up to 6 months for the Atlas to be rebuilt as a SL. perhaps you should give them a go [emoji4] Shane, you only had to ask, mate - would happily have loaned you a spare AT-95![emoji3]Might have only got you through 6 minutes rather than 6 months though!Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mloutfie Posted August 19, 2017 Share Posted August 19, 2017 No where near Etna price range but I'm loving my well tempered Lyra Dorian combo 6 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mwhouston Posted August 19, 2017 Share Posted August 19, 2017 Nice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AussieMick Posted August 19, 2017 Share Posted August 19, 2017 No where near Etna price range but I'm loving my well tempered Lyra Dorian combo Again, drooling. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hergest Posted August 21, 2017 Share Posted August 21, 2017 Just found this Goldring mounted on my old Rega Planar 2 back in 2009 when it was my back up table. Buggered if i can remember the model of the Goldring. It was a moving coil with a sonic signature reminiscent of an AT OC-9II. Brilliant tracker, dead quiet in the groove but a bit too brittle for my tastes on the top end. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Citroen Posted August 21, 2017 Share Posted August 21, 2017 That's a Goldring 10xx Moving Magnet cartridge 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hergest Posted August 21, 2017 Share Posted August 21, 2017 Just now, Citroen said: That's a Goldring 10xx Moving Magnet cartridge Indeed it is, a 1012gx as I've just found another photo. Where's the embarrassed smiley? The low output Goldring mc came after as I liked the 1012. I'm sure I've got a photo of it somewhere. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Citroen Posted August 21, 2017 Share Posted August 21, 2017 I have the Goldring 1006/12/42 (interchageable stylii) and an AT OC-9II Chalk and cheese IMHO! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hergest Posted August 21, 2017 Share Posted August 21, 2017 1 minute ago, Citroen said: I have the Goldring 1006/12/42 (interchageable stylii) and an AT OC-9II Chalk and cheese IMHO! Indeed, there is no comparison. It's the low output mc Goldring that reminded me of the OC-9 but I can't remember the model of that one. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mwhouston Posted August 21, 2017 Share Posted August 21, 2017 I'm seriously thinking about going back to a MM cart. For about the last ten or more years I have been enjoying my Ortofon Rondo Blue but by now may need re-tipping. But I am thinking about got to back to something like an Ortofon 2M black. I have three DIY MM stages (one tube) and three DIY MC stages so I would have to shake off my MC stages. I read some way you only use a MM cart because you can't afford a MC cart. Has anyone got some good arguments for and against. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AussieMick Posted August 21, 2017 Share Posted August 21, 2017 It's a dodgy old argument, that one. MC carts are more expensive, but dollar for dollar are they better, fundamentally? I wonder what would happen if Clearaudio started from scratch and made a cost no object MM like they do MC? They've just released the Charisma V2 at an elevated price point ($2k+). I've no doubt the Lyra carts are better than the 2M Black, but so they bloody should be. Until there are carts of equal cost, I'm not sure can compare. The other problem is that it's much more difficult to build an MC stage or step-up unit because of such low output from the cart. Can of worms. All you can do is try a really good MM and judge for yourself. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mloutfie Posted August 22, 2017 Share Posted August 22, 2017 as a previous 2m black user I can say they are really good. better than cheaper MC like denon dl110 I've also owned. in the end I think it's a case by case basis tonearm compatibility etc. but at it's price around $600 or during ebay sales around $500 they are hard to beat mm/mc wise. just make sure you can adjust vta on your arm 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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