blybo Posted January 5, 2020 Share Posted January 5, 2020 @vassp In your opening post you mentioned you listen at moderate levels. I suspect you are are not even getting close to what the Marantz can output, so don't know that going for a more powerful power amp or integrated will get you where you want to go. I'd suggest it is a different voiced amp you are looking for. Your room is not not large either. Perhaps use a spl meter (dB A weighted if possible) and preferably not from your smart phone, and then report back what sort of levels we are talking about. I only listen at low to moderate levels myself (55-80dB A) most of the time. I intentionally went looking for an integrated with zero global feedback topology as it is suggested they work better at low volume, but did not limit my choices to that design. I believe all valve amps work this way but so do many SS. I still demo'ed in home about 7 or 8 with my own speakers before deciding on 1. I went with a low output Moon which does have zero global feedback as it happens, but I bought due to the in home demo, not a spec sheet. BTW, Parasound give great specs, but they are actually a pretty cheap brand in the US on a par with Emotiva. I demo'ed their Halo integrated but was not impressed even though it had a stack more power than the amp I went with. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aussievintage Posted January 5, 2020 Share Posted January 5, 2020 5 minutes ago, blybo said: I intentionally went looking for an integrated with zero global feedback topology as it is suggested they work better at low volume, but did not limit my choices to that design. I believe all valve amps work this way but so do many SS. Many valve amps use global feedback - I'd even say most do/did. It is only in the modern audiophile world that we see zero ngf as more common. Done well it can sound fantastic. I am listening to Spotify "Morning Classical" right now, and there's nothing but zero ngf triode valve stages between the DAC and the speakers. Blissfull 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mwhouston Posted January 6, 2020 Share Posted January 6, 2020 I’d say stay with your speakers. You wouldn’t be the first to recognise that even efficient speakers love lots of current. My combo at the mo is tube preamp and these days SS power amp. For me I think I’m getting the best of both worlds, a little tube injected warmth and power of an SS amp. Also tube preamps image extremely well. Two power amps at the mo a 300W and 125W. Both Holton inspired. Speakers are 92db sensitive but I feel the 300W delivers a better sound on two levels; bass and transparency. All my gear is DIY. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vassp Posted January 6, 2020 Author Share Posted January 6, 2020 6 hours ago, mwhouston said: I’d say stay with your speakers. You wouldn’t be the first to recognise that even efficient speakers love lots of current. My combo at the mo is tube preamp and these days SS power amp. For me I think I’m getting the best of both worlds, a little tube injected warmth and power of an SS amp. Also tube preamps image extremely well. Two power amps at the mo a 300W and 125W. Both Holton inspired. Speakers are 92db sensitive but I feel the 300W delivers a better sound on two levels; bass and transparency. All my gear is DIY. Valve pre amp and Ss power amp is what seems to be where most are at with our requirements. this is definitely where I’m heading, if l had unlimited budget I’d be all valves. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
betty boop Posted January 6, 2020 Share Posted January 6, 2020 1 minute ago, vassp said: Valve pre amp and Ss power amp is what seems to be where most are at with our requirements. this is definitely where I’m heading, if l had unlimited budget I’d be all valves. keep in mind there are hybrid integrated too. like the one that sold here recently 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vassp Posted January 6, 2020 Author Share Posted January 6, 2020 (edited) 6 hours ago, betty boop said: keep in mind there are hybrid integrated too. like the one that sold here recently That was nice. Nice one, well l better get something soon cause too much analysis going on, so best is to contact shops and get demo’s sorted. Edited January 6, 2020 by vassp Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest deanB Posted January 6, 2020 Share Posted January 6, 2020 The mention of hybrid integrated made me remember seeing this... https://www.classaaudio.com.au/integrated-amplifier/141-unison-research-unico-200-integrated-amplifier.html Mucho power and current. It's a big heavy bugger though. Kevin@ClassA is good to deal with ime. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
betty boop Posted January 7, 2020 Share Posted January 7, 2020 8 hours ago, deanB said: The mention of hybrid integrated made me remember seeing this... https://www.classaaudio.com.au/integrated-amplifier/141-unison-research-unico-200-integrated-amplifier.html Mucho power and current. It's a big heavy bugger though. Kevin@ClassA is good to deal with ime. wow thats an amazing piece at quite a saving. they make great valve amps too. love my pure class A unison research Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
evil c Posted January 7, 2020 Share Posted January 7, 2020 19 minutes ago, betty boop said: wow thats an amazing piece at quite a saving. they make great valve amps too. love my pure class A unison research Yeah looks like a very nice unit. As a valve pre and SS power amps owner myself- recently bought a hybrid Italian valve pre SS integrated amp (Pathos Logos) on behalf of a friend and was highly impressed with it's performance. Enough to be sorry to see it go! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wimbo Posted January 7, 2020 Share Posted January 7, 2020 19 hours ago, vassp said: Valve pre amp and Ss power amp is what seems to be where most are at with our requirements. this is definitely where I’m heading, if l had unlimited budget I’d be all valves. Maybe have a chat to Mark. Being in the industry for 34 years I have heard a lot of kit. I recently started getting into my home HiFi after a 10 years absence and now run Marks Valve pre and his 300 watt Holton inspired class a/b power amp. Excellent sonics and value for the money. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vassp Posted January 7, 2020 Author Share Posted January 7, 2020 Huge thanks to everyone who has chimed in, not there yet, hopefully get a demo tomorrow. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rhythm Willie Posted January 8, 2020 Share Posted January 8, 2020 I am set now on the valve pre SS power idea. My last two pres are valve, first a Ming Da and now a Doge. I bi amp with four DIY monoblocks based on Holten's for bass and Aksa's for mids and treble, kind of a good combo with the convenience of remote control and the power amps are hardly cruising even at very high sound levels 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vassp Posted January 25, 2020 Author Share Posted January 25, 2020 Hey guys thanks for all the advice, here’s an update......... got a demo yesterday of a parasound jc5 vs the parasound A21 plus mated to the parasound p6 pre amp and some 4ohm speakers 6,5 in drivers (about as close as l could get to my speakers). best way to describe it is that the JC 5 (through the parasound p6 pre) is about 20% better on everything vs the A21+, the sonic signature was very similar, but at nearly double the cost I’m finding it hard to justify the extra cost atm.. This demo was not a clear OMG how good is the JC 5, The biggest difference (And a small one at that was in the mids my first demo of the jC5 a few months ago was more impressive ( and on cheaper speakers mind you) this was demoed on the (much more expensive) JC2 pre amp though, could the cheaper pre be holding it back? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wimbo Posted January 25, 2020 Share Posted January 25, 2020 Could do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vassp Posted February 28, 2020 Author Share Posted February 28, 2020 Hi everyone, here’s my update. l finally purchased a Parasound A21 + and hooked it up to my marantz ki pearl integrated (using it as pre amp). WOW. What a difference some power / current make. it’s loosened up my speakers and the sound is amazing. vocals, guitars, keyboards, piano all sound excellent. the difference is really obvious, even my nine year old daughter noticed it, she came running to listen and she said that the singer feels like she is right there in the room, and that’s how it feels. It’s a revelation. this was after about 5 hours of playing ...... Some negatives.... bass needs tightening up just a little bit. bass Definition a little masked. in some songs (very few) the amp feels slow, noticeably slow, where I’m like come on get a move on. hope the amp will improve over time and with dedicated pre. Amp. otherwise it’s a huge difference. anyone in doubt to what a good power amp can make to 4 ohm speakers should stop reading and buy an amp with high current and power. It’s that good. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Happy Sacks Posted February 29, 2020 Share Posted February 29, 2020 (edited) Glad you kept your Helicons. Damn nice speakers with really good ribbon tweeters and beautifully finished. Like the old Infinity Kappas, if there's one thing those Helicon 400s like more than plenty of wattage, it's a tsunami of clean current so the Parasound A21+ is a good choice. Their Halo range are very much a no BS-type of product and does exactly what it says it will do on the blurb. They're also generally pretty bulletproof when it comes to reliability. 17 hours ago, vassp said: Hi everyone, here’s my update. l finally purchased a Parasound A21 + and hooked it up to my marantz ki pearl integrated (using it as pre amp). WOW. What a difference some power / current make. it’s loosened up my speakers and the sound is amazing. vocals, guitars, keyboards, piano all sound excellent. the difference is really obvious, even my nine year old daughter noticed it, she came running to listen and she said that the singer feels like she is right there in the room, and that’s how it feels. It’s a revelation. this was after about 5 hours of playing ...... Some negatives.... bass needs tightening up just a little bit. bass Definition a little masked. in some songs (very few) the amp feels slow, noticeably slow, where I’m like come on get a move on. hope the amp will improve over time and with dedicated pre. Amp. otherwise it’s a huge difference. anyone in doubt to what a good power amp can make to 4 ohm speakers should stop reading and buy an amp with high current and power. It’s that good. The power amp will need at least 200 hours use before it comes into its own. You'll find things will improve adding a Parasound P6 or JC2BP pre amp. FWIW my system has perform both HT and Stereo duties, so I run Parasound JC2BP with a Parasound A51. Love it!!! Check your system for choke points. For example: What sort of speaker cables are you using??? You want to be able to transfer all that current you just paid for out of the amp and into the speakers. No point running piddling 18 AWG wire when you should be using 12-13 AWG. What sort of power board are you using??? The Dectet from PS Audio allows you to use a power cable of your choice once again removing a potential choke point for electrical current. Rome wasn't built in a day, but you've added really good power amp to a terrific pair of speakers. Just keep going down the quality road and you'll be fine. Edited February 29, 2020 by Happy Sacks 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vassp Posted February 29, 2020 Author Share Posted February 29, 2020 (edited) Thanks Happy Sacks, some really good points,. The Dali helicons are great speakers but need amps to shine. And yes you can tell I’m really happy.. I’d love the jc2BP pre buts it’s out of my price range , otherwise it has everything l need except valves. never had valves in my hifi (or separates) so would love that. My next purchase will more than likely be a premaluna 400 pre. Not much info about these, are they popular on this board? Edited February 29, 2020 by vassp Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MattyW Posted February 29, 2020 Share Posted February 29, 2020 (edited) You could very well be better off keeping what you have now and trying a better source. What DAC / phono stage are you running? Maybe see if there's anyone nearby in Melbourne willing to demo their DAC in your system? Suggest looking into R2R units. Problem is that great DAC / phono stages don't come cheap. Edited February 29, 2020 by MattyW 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andyr Posted February 29, 2020 Share Posted February 29, 2020 (edited) On 06/01/2020 at 8:02 AM, vassp said: ... but the main thing l was not prepared for was how much power these Dali speakers need, these speakers do require high current amps no question about it. so l did a massive search and I stumbled onto this Dali thread one day and learnt that a lot of the guys there are running high power pass labs and similar amps. The consensus was Dali Helicons sound Better with valves (very expensive ones) and high power amps. If you need high power (read lotsa current) amps then I would suggest: sure, you can get this with valves - think VTL or Audio Research - but they are expensive. Class A amps are rarely high power - if they are they are also big $$$. so you need a high power Class AB amp - Parasound A21, Magtech, for instance, are not esoterically priced. Andy EDIT: Aaah, I see you purchased an A21! Good choice. Edited February 29, 2020 by andyr 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vassp Posted February 29, 2020 Author Share Posted February 29, 2020 3 hours ago, MattyW said: You could very well be better off keeping what you have now and trying a better source. What DAC / phono stage are you running? Maybe see if there's anyone nearby in Melbourne willing to demo their DAC in your system? Suggest looking into R2R units. Problem is that great DAC / phono stages don't come cheap. Amp purchase (parasound A21+) made a massive difference, No phono stage, no Dac. Atm. My whole system so far. 4k player. CD player Matanrz integrated amp as pre amp (temporary). Parasound A21+ power amp. speakers. subwoofer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MattyW Posted February 29, 2020 Share Posted February 29, 2020 I'd maybe see if any fellow Melbourne SNA members are running nice R2R DAC's and are willing to demo in your system Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vassp Posted February 29, 2020 Author Share Posted February 29, 2020 (edited) 7 minutes ago, MattyW said: I'd maybe see if any fellow Melbourne SNA members are running nice R2R DAC's and are willing to demo in your system Thanks but my Next purchase is a valve pre amp. everything else after that. Only took me 7 years to get this far. Edited February 29, 2020 by vassp 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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