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Do we audition too loud?


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Just been reading a few threads on "equal loudness" contours and they got me thinking.

In the past whenever I've auditioned new gear, I've tended to turn it up louder than my normal listening volume.

I'm sure others do this too. I've certainly observed people auditioning gear in hifi stores at a volumes that are far louder than I imagine they would listen at home.

 

So, given that the tonal balance of what we listen to changes with volume (see Fletcher-Munson), I wonder if that isn't one of the reasons why people become dissatisfied over time. Most of the time you are literally listening to something that has a different (perceived) tonal balance to the thing you auditioned 

 

Thoughts, comments, ridicule… all welcomed 

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most times i have auditioned, yes , i turn it up loud, but then gradually turn it down to hear how well the gear sound at normal and low listening levels, this tells me how satisfied i will be in different situations.

to quote a line from a Frank Zappa song " turn it down"

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Sellers tend to turn up the volume as it can be perceived to sound better.

 

Whenever I've been auditioning new equipment, I get them to set the volume to a normal listening level for me.  I will also get them to demo it in lower volumes.  Of course, it's also good to check out how it copes at louder volumes.  But the gear has to pass the "normal listening volume" test before I can be bothered with the second two.

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2 hours ago, wen said:

most times i have auditioned, yes , i turn it up loud, but then gradually turn it down to hear how well the gear sound at normal and low listening levels, this tells me how satisfied i will be in different situations.

to quote a line from a Frank Zappa song " turn it down"

Gotta concur with this 

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I wouldn’t read into it too much what you notice at audio shops. The salesman is trying to get the quickest impact in the short time available and it is no reflection of anything else what you normally do.

 

There are different states of loudness depending on the type of music, mood and purpose one is in, longer listening before fatigue sets in is usually around 70-85dB(A) and detail is best heard, background music levels at around 50-60dB(A) not paying or needing attention to details, shorter term impression and impact levels to get some good bass and other instruments at around 90-97dB(A)+ levels while fatigue sets in faster due to it being too loud, transitioning from perceived enjoyable sound to becoming excessive noise (not only because of distortion, room acoustics or the system being not right).

 

The difference on room acoustics between shop and when the gear is brought home is causing the biggest issues and completely random event.

Edited by Al.M
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3 hours ago, Al.M said:

The salesman is trying to get the quickest impact in the short time available

and that's how the "loudness wars" started...the 45s in the jukebox that were recorded louder had a bigger impact on the audience and were perceived as "better", and got played more often, so the recording studios brought up the volume more and more - with the limit just below where the needle jumps out of the groove...fast forward to CDs with greater "loudness" capability than vinyl and the war was lost for discerning listeners and producers that cared about dynamic range...

...apologies for the OT direction...

 

3 hours ago, Al.M said:

The difference on room acoustics between shop and when the gear is brought home is causing the biggest issues and completely random.

^this

although I would recommend taking your own "reference" tracks into the store to listen to at various volumes - tracks you're very familiar with on your home setup.

 

16 hours ago, Muon N' said:

I don't audition, that's for buyers of new gear.

I'm the same - even the gear I've bought new (PSE144s, TD18 drivers and boxes, my first DEQX) were purchased without auditioning. 

 

When the mood suits I also listen very loud on my home setup - much louder than I would in a store.

 

4 hours ago, initforthemusic said:

No such thing as "too loud".

I disagree with this - I listen too loud too often, and have damaged my ears over the years...but I'm more conscious these days of limiting high listening volumes, and loud environments generally to save what hearing I have remaining...

 

I took this image from Rod Elliot's site https://sound-au.com/articles/amp-power.htm

1508158667_SPLlistening.PNG.b67829031cd0574bb62cbbf70ccde2e2.PNG

 

I'm one of those guys that always wears hearing protection when mowing the lawn, using a power saw, etc etc

I sing in rock band and always wear hearing protection when rehearsing (using the Etymotic ear plugs with a "reasonably" flat FR)...band rehearsal rooms typically have rigid walls reflecting all the bass and it gets loud.

...the lads always start loud then keep turning up their amps to hear themselves...I measured the SPL in the rehearsing room one time and it was peaking at 120dB !!!

 

I take my Etymotic ear plugs to all live gigs now, and use them if needed...

...if your ears are ringing after a gig, you've done permanent damage to your ears...

 

...sorry for the OT rambling...I agree with the comments above that listening to gear "in store" needs to be done at various volume levels, including higher than "normal", using familiar reference music tracks. 

 

cheers

Mike

 

PS: look after your ears...if you listen at elevated SPLs (as I do, too often), do it with an understanding that longer listening times will cause permanent damage  

Edited by almikel
typo
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17 hours ago, wen said:

most times i have auditioned, yes , i turn it up loud, but then gradually turn it down to hear how well the gear sound at normal and low listening levels, this tells me how satisfied i will be in different situations.

to quote a line from a Frank Zappa song " turn it down"

nice reference ! That would be  Joe's Garage track 2  at 1min 48 seconds , and occurring later again  

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4 hours ago, almikel said:

od Elliot's site

Many sites like this don’t quote what sound measurement weighting and when referring to human perceived loudness and hearing loss it should be generally quoted in A-weighting, Fletcher Munson curves. If there is no reference to weighting (A, C or Z) it is assumed to be in Z or linear meaning no filter weighting applied. Here are the Aust Worksafe correct figures (page 17, table 2) in A-weighting, which I think Rod E meant as well https://content.api.worksafe.vic.gov.au/sites/default/files/2019-12/Compliance_code%3A_Noise.pdf

 

An error can be made if you get the A and Z weighting’s misquoted and depending on the frequency content of the noise you could be reading 85dB (meaning Z linear) when in fact it could be 5-15dB lower when the sound meter is set to A-weighting, so always use A-weighting in hearing safety discussions for such values. A difference of 10dB is perceived as twice the loudness so quite massive. If aware of this person 1 could be perceiving loudness as something in Z linear sound level (plain old dB only) that is twice the loudness to person 2 referring to A-weighted sound level, while both are quoting the same number.

 

Edited by Al.M
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I'm a mid-fi guy and had the same heart in my system for a few years now but have had 4-5 speaker changes, some speakers don't seem to activate their full potential until they reach that "yes we are playing music" level and seem a bit flat when not up there. 

 

you need to know what they do on all levels including the the top speed,  if your test driving a V8 your going to hit the gas.  

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I demo'ed gear at two different stores for close to 35 years and always tried to get a reasonable listening level going. Listening to speakers at a low level? Get some head phones.

You lose the natural dynamics and all the low level detail as far as I'm concerned. Why stress out straining to compare when this should be easily done.

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When it comes  to auditioning, I listen at the types of volumes I usually listen at. I play music loud, but I don’t play it LOUD!!! Maybe I have never owned a system capable of playing truely earth shatteringly loud without beginning to show it’s limitations, very few systems have this ability. Even very capable systems have a point where they start to feel the strain.

 

One thing I do know is that when a system is right I want to keep turning it up. When it is wrong I just want to turn it down. In my opinion most systems have a sweet spot where power, current and efficiency meld to produce the best reproduction. If you usually listen a lower levels then you want the system to reach this point of synergy at those levels, no use if it starts to boogie way above your usual listening levels. Conversely it is useless if it sounds sweet at a lower SPL and falls apart when it reaches the levels you enjoy.

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When one raises the volume at an audition, that actually tends to make the assessment more accurate because the recorded performance was almost certainly very loud, closer to a high volume than a "normal" extended listening volume.

 

Ofcourse, listening at high volume all the time would be fatiguing and harmful to the ears, but there's no accurate way for the consumer to do proper volume compensation - that would require knowing the recording's absolute volume level, your music system knowing its own absolute volume level, and compensating for the differential between the two using DSP, Fletcher-Munson curves, etc.

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29 minutes ago, b0dhi said:

When one raises the volume at an audition, that actually tends to make the assessment more accurate because the recorded performance was almost certainly very loud, closer to a high volume than a "normal" extended listening volume.

 

Ofcourse, listening at high volume all the time would be fatiguing and harmful to the ears, but there's no accurate way for the consumer to do proper volume compensation - that would require knowing the recording's absolute volume level, your music system knowing its own absolute volume level, and compensating for the differential between the two using DSP, Fletcher-Munson curves, etc.

My original question has nothing to do with trying to reproduce the recorded performance. 

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21 hours ago, sir sanders zingmore said:

My original question has nothing to do with trying to reproduce the recorded performance. 

Gotta love it when the person asking the question also thinks they're the expert on the answer.

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Sadly I've not been allowed to audition as loud as I'd like it.

I made a mistake once , travelling around Bleak City with a friend from SNA who every single shop we stopped at...was welcomed in with open arms.

The spivs and apartment stay salesmen that infest HiFi stores knew him well; Diana Krell...check; Norah Jones...check; DSOTM...check; Eagles best of...check;

Faust, Sad Skinhead...check...umm, HEY WAIT!! WTF IS THAT PLAYING...TURN IT DOWN!!!!

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24 minutes ago, Luc said:

Sadly I've not been allowed to audition as loud as I'd like it.

I made a mistake once , travelling around Bleak City with a friend from SNA who every single shop we stopped at...was welcomed in with open arms.

The spivs and apartment stay salesmen that infest HiFi stores knew him well; Diana Krell...check; Norah Jones...check; DSOTM...check; Eagles best of...check;

Faust, Sad Skinhead...check...umm, HEY WAIT!! WTF IS THAT PLAYING...TURN IT DOWN!!!!

Lost on that one bro. But then again, we have just had two weeks of flatoutness?

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