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2 minutes ago, was_a said:

I've given my thoughts on this twice already earlier in the thread. 

I quoted redrich2000, not yourself.

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Posted (edited)

Oh, sorry. (I thought the world revolved around me...🙂).

 

 

 

 

Edited by was_a

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49 minutes ago, a.dent said:

. Interestingly, the DAC that I found to sound clearly worse than all others was from Audio GD, products which ASR has found problems with. Most of the other DACs I've had have sounded so similar as to be virtually indistinguishable from each other.

 

I concur.  

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Yeahno.Audio Gd must sound better because they use fully discrete output stages and Accuphase DACs must sound like crap because they use op amp output stages.Did the Stereonet golden era of DAC of the month not teach us anything?And where are the Killer DAC people when we need them?

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Posted (edited)

I like ASR, and I enjoy this site and others too. Usually if you read the reviews of the equipment on ASR there's quite a bit of consideration and thinking about why products perform the way they do. I don't have a technical background, but I've been interested in audio for a few years and I learn a lot from what Amir and others write. I used to enjoy when Lukas from Lampizator did his analyses of how certain products worked too.

 

I find the intensity of hostility to ASR  amazing. I understand people have criticisms, but it gets quite extreme.

 

This thread is pretty entertaining though.

 

Also the D90 looks like a nice unit.

 

Edited by sleach

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Guest Muon N'
Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, THOMO said:

Yeahno.Audio Gd must sound better because they use fully discrete output stages and Accuphase DACs must sound like crap because they use op amp output stages.Did the Stereonet golden era of DAC of the month not teach us anything?And where are the Killer DAC people when we need them?

Any output topology can be done very well or very badly and anywhere in-between, my preferences lay with Thorsten Loesch's design thoughts, he seems to prefer discrete..... but more so the use if done well  tube and or transformer output stages, and with Op Amps I also like the fet input Op Amps, all on the prevision it is of good design.

 

Edit: Thorsten makes some interesting points about Op Amp in this article.

http://www.enjoythemusic.com/diy/0310/marantz_cd_mod.htm

Edited by Muon N'

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Posted (edited)
5 hours ago, sir sanders zingmore said:

A number of Schiit products have been”recommended”. Hardly evidence of a witch hunt. 
The poor measurements of the products that measure poorly are not a matter of opinion. They are simply measurements. 
 

As for $100 products......indeed.  I replaced a ~$3k DAC with a $100 dac. There was no audible difference to me in a system that conventional wisdom claims is “very revealing” of upstream components. 

What Dac's are you referring to? Especially the $100 one.

Edited by kelossus

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1 minute ago, kelossus said:

What Dac's are you referring to? Especially the $100 one.

Topping D10 replaced my Holo

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1 hour ago, THOMO said:

And where are the Killer DAC people when we need them?

Hi :) 

 

Amir isn't the font of all knowledge he and his peeps occasionally make themselves out to be and some of his methods are scientifically laughable, but his stuff is available and free. You'd need some exceptional prowess in digital signal processing and a deep understanding of analogue and digital signal/data paths  to be able to use an analyser sufficiently to reconcile some of what's being heard to data correctly - which is not always what he does! - and a lot of time. 

Again I'd point out ASR is offered free. It's just a data point in context, offered free. Context is important :) 

 

All we know of the D90 from ASR is that when run through an analyser on a certain series of tests by a certain buy with data processed in a certain way and visualised so, that it compares favourably to other products supposedly measured consistently. 

 

It's not all bad. If not for ASR I'd never have heard of a Topping D10, and that killed every DAC I'd ever owned under $200 with ease. I can't tell you if it's the best sub-$200 DAC out there, and no, it didn't replace my main DAC. Though that some people here have replaced a $3k DAC with a $100 doesn't make them idiots, it makes them up to $2900 better off. Buying a nice shiny DAC because we think it'll sound good is silly, buying one because some limited-context graphs look relatively nice is also silly. Yet neither are implausible. We can't road test everything. 

 

Keen to hear what this D90 sounds like irrespective of what ASR does. 

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I have a Topping TP20mk2 single input integrated amp, fits in the palm of my hand. I paid $50 about 7 years ago, running Spotify from a tablet into 1970 full range speakers.

Sounds great unless you turn it up, I reckon 8 watts into 8 ohms.

That is the only Topping experience I have, I do have a Muse TDA 1543x4 DAC Which for the money is not going anywhere.

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Guest Muon N'

I have experienced Chocolate and Caramel Topping only B)

 

I preferred Chocolate :fear:

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1 hour ago, Batty said:

I have a Topping TP20mk2 single input integrated amp, fits in the palm of my hand. I paid $50 about 7 years ago, running Spotify from a tablet into 1970 full range speakers.

Sounds great unless you turn it up, I reckon 8 watts into 8 ohms.

That is the only Topping experience I have, I do have a Muse TDA 1543x4 DAC Which for the money is not going anywhere.

Yes I had that! Great little amp... That era of Topping was so interesting, and I still admire their current budget products, including the D10 and D30. But I don't believe they are doing justice to the latest, more expensive DAC chips - which are inherently more complicated to implement well. Sure, the noise and distortion measurements will be wonderful, but like I've said often on this thread, that means little in terms of sound quality. 

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1 hour ago, was_a said:

Sure, the noise and distortion measurements will be wonderful, but like I've said often on this thread, that means little in terms of sound quality. 

I think we probably agree there but for very different reasons indeed :) 

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1 hour ago, was_a said:

Sure, the noise and distortion measurements will be wonderful, but like I've said often on this thread, that means little in terms of sound quality. 

 

But isn't that what makes it intriguing? We'll have a @Gieseler Audio DAC out in future off the same chip (I may have that wrong) with a completely different implementation and a different price point - how will they sound different? Is there any way they could sound similar? 

 

We live in a wonderful age of information transparency; we lack more for context than we do volumes of data. So we'll know we can get the same chip in either DAC (or others). The debate alone makes for far more informed customers. 20 years ago this just wasn't possible. Maybe even 10 years ago. Only in the last few years can we really speak of DAC ICs with accessible performance in the same range as reference instrumentation. It's an awesome time to be involved in this. 

 

As they likely will sound different, as one will likely have more PRAT, toe-tapping, smiling etc... as you'll just like to listen more to one than the other if someone were happy to sit down with an analyser and pull apart what may inform that from a scientific perspective, that'd be awesome. But it'd be a longer study, one that may raise more questions than what's on ASR alone. 

 

Which isn't to diminish the value of a standard set of tests, just to give them the appropriate context.

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Posted (edited)

I agree that new products (like the D90) are intriguing! I've had many well-regarded DACs in my home, including Topping's D50 and D70 models, for curiosity's sake. At some point I know I'll have a listen to the D90 too. And yes, the information age and technological advances make for a far more transparent world for audiophiles. 

 

But I take issue with your argument that current DAC ICs give [budget and mid-price] products equal performance to reference-grade devices of yesteryear. Because there remains the age-old requirement for a good analogue output stage. And that's responsible for a large percentage of sound quality. 

 

Cirrus Logic, AKM and Sabre have made huge advances in the delta-sigma realm and given manufacturers like Topping the opportunity to design sleek, appealing products. But in a reasonably good system this will only take you so far. 

 

 

 

Edited by was_a

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Posted (edited)
7 minutes ago, was_a said:

But I take issue with your argument that current DAC ICs give [budget and mid-price] products equal performance to reference-grade devices of yesteryear.

I took it to mean measures as well as laboratory reference grade measuring / studio equipment, not sound as good as reference audio equipment of yesteryear.

Edited by Ittaku

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45 minutes ago, rmpfyf said:

As they likely will sound different, as one will likely have more PRAT, toe-tapping, smiling etc... as you'll just like to listen more to one than the other if someone were happy to sit down with an analyser and pull apart what may inform that from a scientific perspective, that'd be awesome. But it'd be a longer study, one that may raise more questions than what's on ASR alone. 

What if the "other" DAC measures better than the Topping?

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2 minutes ago, sir sanders zingmore said:

What if the "other" DAC measures better than the Topping?

What if it doesn't?

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4 minutes ago, Ittaku said:

I took it to mean measures as well as laboratory reference grade measuring / studio equipment, not sound as good as reference audio equipment of yesteryear.

You may be right (much as it pains me to agree with you)..... !!

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1 minute ago, was_a said:

You may be right (much as it pains me to agree with you)..... !!

Wow, you hate me that much? I'm touched. Though we've mostly agreed on this thread.

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Posted (edited)

Oh, have we? Well I've always thought of you as an intelligent contributor. A pioneer really...You probably have Mehta's Mahler 5 with the New York Phil in your collection too.

 

 

 

Edited by was_a

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Just now, was_a said:

A pioneer really...

...but not a Pass Labs then ?

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When it comes to digital there have always been some cheap CD players that sounded better than far more expensive models.Often from the same maker.Most of the expensive Sony ES players for example did not sound as good as their relatively cheap players like the CDP 715.Same goes for many of the Marantz players.So the same thing is likely to apply to DACs and so the claim that  modern cheap DACs like the Toppings sound better than most of the older expensive DACs is just telling you that a lot of those expensive DACs were not very good and concluding that therefore modern DAC design must have improved is not really valid.That is just a coincidence . My conclusion for some time has been that the vast majority DAC/CD player designers/builders really have very little insight into  what makes a good sounding digital source and if they do make something good it is probably just a fluke .One company that does appear to have cracked it is Accuphase but that  probably has a lot more to do with their expertise in power supplies and output stages than digital processing.

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42 minutes ago, THOMO said:

Accuphase but that  probably has a lot more to do with their expertise in power supplies and output stages than digital processing.

100%.....🙏

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2 hours ago, Ittaku said:

What if it doesn't?

Then it’s sure to sound better 😀

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