PositivelyMusicallyGeared 337 Posted January 3, 2020 Share Posted January 3, 2020 I'd say that an experienced audiophile would acknowledge the validity of each approach within its context and its contribution to the understanding of our sound appreciation. 2 Link to post Share on other sites
Addicted to music 7,112 Posted January 3, 2020 Author Share Posted January 3, 2020 (edited) 34 minutes ago, was_a said: I'm sorry, but I have to chime in again. This discussion about modern DAC chips is irrelevant. Experienced audiophiles know that analogue output stages and power supplies dictate sound quality. . And technical professionals with electronics qualification who calls themselves audiophiles and have done some measurements to clarify distortion levels will say if you want impressive SQ, colour it with a valve unity gain stage or something similar etc Didn’t I say that b4 or are you not listening! 34 minutes ago, was_a said: Audio Science Review it's the blind leading the blind. I'm hoping for a more balanced approach on Stereonet. Wrong! If we didn’t have ASR Review we will be totally blind! When are you get that engineering requires reference measurements to gauge performance of a product, when you finally realised this you will understand why measurements determined performance, it doesn’t have to agree with what you like to hear and that’s a given! Edited January 3, 2020 by Addicted to music 1 Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Muon N' Posted January 3, 2020 Share Posted January 3, 2020 Only in part in regards to performance, not absolute. When will you get it Link to post Share on other sites
davewantsmoore 6,503 Posted January 3, 2020 Share Posted January 3, 2020 23 hours ago, Steve M said: Its just a guess and please don’t take umbrage, but I think that Amir (and a lot of his membership) are not able to express clearly or with some imaginative prose ’how something sounds’. What it is.... is that they don't want to.... Doing so would contradict their understanding of how the world works. They think that if they heard a difference between two devices, and those devices measured "very close" that, then they must have "imagined" their experience of the difference in sound. There are lots of "lose" terms used here by me, which need definition to take the discussion further (how close is close?, which measurements?, etc. etc. There is a LOT of evidence to support their perspective. I think many many audio people disbelieve that.... because they've had an experience where to "supposed to be closely measuring" things, sounded very different. Too different for it to be imagined (perhaps even "the person in the next room could tell")..... and, so, they conclude that the whole thing is BS. "Not everything sounds the same, and these ASR-types must be deaf". ... but they didn't check the frequency response, levels, distortion, clipping, etc. There WAS something different between the devices which made them obviously different (which is obviously why they heard something) ..... but if used differently, the devices would have performed as their datasheets indicated. ie. "identically". Clipping and output loading is a huge issue in speaker amplifiers that can get missed by the "test bench". 23 hours ago, Steve M said: he may not have had extensive experience with hearing a lot of hi-end audio equipment and just doesn’t go there or have any belief in these things from first-hand encounters I think many people are afraid to say: I've listened to a lot of high end equipment, and I have found that all good equipment sounds identical.... and when it doesn't there is a reason which can be found (eg. frequency, distortion, level, etc.) To a whole tribe of people you instantly "lose all credibility". Inexperienced, deaf, ignorant. ... and then you get the "subjective people" falling over themselves about a system which uses DAC, amps, and speaker drivers, which each cost less than a bottle of very cheap wine.... and saying it's the best thing they've ever heard (all they know is it costs $20k). Teehee. 3 Link to post Share on other sites
was_a 581 Posted January 3, 2020 Share Posted January 3, 2020 (edited) I think many 'Measurements Rule' folk are afraid to acknowledge the infinite variables in sound quality from component to component. Getting back to the D90. It's a lot of money for a very small DAC, and in my experience with Topping products and other similarly specced DACs, at RRP I would pass. Because a lot of that RRP is marketing - including the touting of AKM's latest chip. Edited January 21, 2020 by was_a Link to post Share on other sites
Addicted to music 7,112 Posted January 3, 2020 Author Share Posted January 3, 2020 (edited) 20 hours ago, PositivelyMusicallyGeared said: D10 is on sale at US$65.00 by Drop right now. There seems to have been an ESS distortion hump issue with the implementations with these chips that is hard to rectify. Some real engineer has made an attempt to fixed that “ESS Hump” on a particular product. He claims that turning of the registry for distortion compensation made no difference.....was wondering that you need to do a full reset power off/on for that registry to take effect? Let’s assume that he’s tried that, So it’s not a software/firmware fix but rather a hardware solution by changing the feedback cap and resistor values on certain Opamps. Love his work: https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/how-to-fix-ess-hump-on-sgd1-and-la-qxd1.10502/ Edited January 3, 2020 by Addicted to music 1 Link to post Share on other sites
PositivelyMusicallyGeared 337 Posted January 3, 2020 Share Posted January 3, 2020 14 minutes ago, Addicted to music said: Some real engineer has made an attempt to fixed that “ESS Hump” on a particular product. Love his work: https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/how-to-fix-ess-hump-on-sgd1-and-la-qxd1.10502/ Awesome! It's not just buggy software that manufacturers rush to market; it can be anything these days. It's comforting to see a flash of the open source spirit spread to this area, and it is a pleasant surprise from China! Who knows but we may have some form of an open-hardware, or open-hifi, movement, as it were, in future. 2 Link to post Share on other sites
Addicted to music 7,112 Posted January 3, 2020 Author Share Posted January 3, 2020 31 minutes ago, PositivelyMusicallyGeared said: Awesome! It's not just buggy software that manufacturers rush to market; it can be anything these days. . Software/Firmware updates is a cost effective solution, and in most cases very effective, however some problems are just “masked” because of real hardware issues.... be interesting to see the response from ESS... 34 minutes ago, PositivelyMusicallyGeared said: . It's comforting to see a flash of the open source spirit spread to this area, and it is a pleasant surprise from China! There are some real knowledgeable people on that site, and they don’t make generalisations... some of them are in the industry and take a lot of time explaining the workings..... They are from all over the globe, China is the manufacturing capital of the world, yep great to see that you’ve acknowledge he’s from China.... check his lab out! But if you get on that site long enough you can really learn.... I have! 1 Link to post Share on other sites
sir sanders zingmore 11,997 Posted January 3, 2020 Share Posted January 3, 2020 14 hours ago, was_a said: I'm sorry, but I have to chime in again. This discussion about modern DAC chips is irrelevant. Experienced audiophiles know that analogue output stages and power supplies dictate sound quality. Inexperienced audiophiles focus on the chip and measurements thereof. On Audio Science Review it's the blind leading the blind. I'm hoping for a more balanced approach on Stereonet. I’d make two comments. First, ASR doesn’t measure chips, they measure the DAC. This means the analog output stages and power supplies too. Second, I’ve only ever heard “subjectivists” saying that DAC chips have a “sound”. It’s not something a “measurement” person would say (unless of course the could measure it) Link to post Share on other sites
davewantsmoore 6,503 Posted January 4, 2020 Share Posted January 4, 2020 16 hours ago, was_a said: I think many 'Measurements Rule' folk are afraid to acknowledge the infinite variables in sound quality from component to component. Even identical models can sound different from one another. I've never heard it under correctly controlled conditions.... so no ..... actually the opposite. I am however, afraid to say what I just did..... lest my "credibility" be attacked. 16 hours ago, was_a said: It's a lot of money for a very small DAC Why does the physical size have anything to do with it? That just means that it doesn't use large values of capacitance or induction. 16 hours ago, was_a said: a lot of that RRP is marketing ... but marketing is just a component of typical business. What would you have them do? No marketing? 1 Link to post Share on other sites
davewantsmoore 6,503 Posted January 4, 2020 Share Posted January 4, 2020 12 hours ago, Addicted to music said: Software/Firmware updates is a cost effective solution, and in most cases very effective, however some problems are just “masked” because of real hardware issues.... be interesting to see the response from ESS... I can tell you what it will be..... just what I said a page back. Loading of an (amplifier) output is critical. Link to post Share on other sites
davewantsmoore 6,503 Posted January 4, 2020 Share Posted January 4, 2020 6 hours ago, sir sanders zingmore said: Second, I’ve only ever heard “subjectivists” saying that DAC chips have a “sound” They can in the sense that one design/model of DAC chip may cause various circuit designers to end up with the same problem (hence the same sound defect). 1 Link to post Share on other sites
sir sanders zingmore 11,997 Posted January 4, 2020 Share Posted January 4, 2020 17 minutes ago, davewantsmoore said: They can in the sense that one design/model of DAC chip may cause various circuit designers to end up with the same problem (hence the same sound defect). makes sense Link to post Share on other sites
was_a 581 Posted January 4, 2020 Share Posted January 4, 2020 Yep, SirSanders, AddictedtoMusic and DaveWantsMoore, sounds like you're all certain. Must be a nice feeling! 1 Link to post Share on other sites
sir sanders zingmore 11,997 Posted January 4, 2020 Share Posted January 4, 2020 2 hours ago, was_a said: Yep, SirSanders, AddictedtoMusic and DaveWantsMoore, sounds like you're all certain. Must be a nice feeling! Link to post Share on other sites
davewantsmoore 6,503 Posted January 4, 2020 Share Posted January 4, 2020 3 hours ago, was_a said: sounds like you're all certain No, just letting you know my experience so far..... do I detect some sarcasm?!.... if so, the ad hominem is a nice touch. Like I said..... Link to post Share on other sites
was_a 581 Posted January 4, 2020 Share Posted January 4, 2020 Sarcasm? Can that be measured? I think not! Link to post Share on other sites
redrich2000 29 Posted January 4, 2020 Share Posted January 4, 2020 On 29/12/2019 at 10:23 PM, was_a said: Thanks for the link. This is a review and detailed measurements of the Topping D90 Balanced USB DAC But there's no review, just measurements! After which the OP heartily recommends the D90 because of its low noise and distortion. There's no mention of sound quality or that he even listened to it! I couldn't get through all the enthusiastic responses on the subsequent 10 pages of the thread, I was laughing too hard.😃 That's cult of ASR, they don't actually listen to gear, they just look at the graphs. The craziest part is the guy who runs it is a crank who doesn't know what he's doing. Link to post Share on other sites
sir sanders zingmore 11,997 Posted January 4, 2020 Share Posted January 4, 2020 1 hour ago, redrich2000 said: That's cult of ASR, they don't actually listen to gear, they just look at the graphs. Really? No. They actually do listen to gear. Loads of their reviews include listening impressions. 1 hour ago, redrich2000 said: The craziest part is the guy who runs it is a crank who doesn't know what he's doing. He’s doing measurements and mainly blind listening tests. Are you saying he’s doing them wrong? 1 Link to post Share on other sites
redrich2000 29 Posted January 4, 2020 Share Posted January 4, 2020 22 minutes ago, sir sanders zingmore said: Really? No. They actually do listen to gear. Loads of their reviews include listening impressions. He’s doing measurements and mainly blind listening tests. Are you saying he’s doing them wrong? Yes, possibly intentionally. He's been exposed and banned from both head-fi and SBAF because he refuses full transparency of his methods and will not explain why his measurements often differ from those done by multiple other sources and generally follow a pattern of promoting certain manufacturers over others. He started his own website so he'd be free from scrutiny and has found a blindly willing following amongst gamers and tech folks who've become interested in headphones. https://www.superbestaudiofriends.org/index.php?threads/tutorial-lies-damn-lies-and-usb-dac-technical-measurements.5770/ https://www.superbestaudiofriends.org/index.php?threads/measurements-are-hard.5159/ Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Muon N' Posted January 4, 2020 Share Posted January 4, 2020 40 minutes ago, redrich2000 said: Yes, possibly intentionally. He's been exposed and banned from both head-fi and SBAF because he refuses full transparency of his methods and will not explain why his measurements often differ from those done by multiple other sources and generally follow a pattern of promoting certain manufacturers over others. He started his own website so he'd be free from scrutiny and has found a blindly willing following amongst gamers and tech folks who've become interested in headphones. https://www.superbestaudiofriends.org/index.php?threads/tutorial-lies-damn-lies-and-usb-dac-technical-measurements.5770/ https://www.superbestaudiofriends.org/index.php?threads/measurements-are-hard.5159/ His die hard supporters will make excuses and defend him, as that is how people try to retain their beliefs. But I'd like to thank you for saying it like it is if it walks like a Duck and quacks like a Duck, It's usually a bloody Duck. Link to post Share on other sites
Addicted to music 7,112 Posted January 4, 2020 Author Share Posted January 4, 2020 7 hours ago, redrich2000 said: Yes, possibly intentionally. He's been exposed and banned from both head-fi and SBAF because he refuses full transparency of his methods and will not explain why his measurements often differ from those done by multiple other sources and generally follow a pattern of promoting certain manufacturers over others. He started his own website so he'd be free from scrutiny and has found a blindly willing following amongst gamers and tech folks who've become interested in headphones. https://www.superbestaudiofriends.org/index.php?threads/tutorial-lies-damn-lies-and-usb-dac-technical-measurements.5770/ https://www.superbestaudiofriends.org/index.php?threads/measurements-are-hard.5159/ There’s the same accusations on the link you provide, they have also have been found manipulating figures to cover up shortfalls.... Both sites have tested the same DAC same product, same version only one site on this product showed shortfalls, only one site has no affiliation to that company, so pick your poison. Link to post Share on other sites
sir sanders zingmore 11,997 Posted January 4, 2020 Share Posted January 4, 2020 7 hours ago, redrich2000 said: Yes, possibly intentionally. He's been exposed and banned from both head-fi and SBAF because he refuses full transparency of his methods and will not explain why his measurements often differ from those done by multiple other sources and generally follow a pattern of promoting certain manufacturers over others. He started his own website so he'd be free from scrutiny and has found a blindly willing following amongst gamers and tech folks who've become interested in headphones. https://www.superbestaudiofriends.org/index.php?threads/tutorial-lies-damn-lies-and-usb-dac-technical-measurements.5770/ https://www.superbestaudiofriends.org/index.php?threads/measurements-are-hard.5159/ Actually he’s gone to great lengths to explain differences in measurements and has made his measurement files available for people to scrutinise. As for getting banned from those sites, it’s no real surprise. Many of the products he has measured are made by sponsors/advertisers on those sites. 1 Link to post Share on other sites
sir sanders zingmore 11,997 Posted January 4, 2020 Share Posted January 4, 2020 7 hours ago, Muon N' said: His die hard supporters will make excuses and defend him, as that is how people try to retain their beliefs. But I'd like to thank you for saying it like it is if it walks like a Duck and quacks like a Duck, It's usually a bloody Duck. Speaking of ducks. A witch-hunt indeed Link to post Share on other sites
was_a 581 Posted January 4, 2020 Share Posted January 4, 2020 On the contrary, the ASR site are 'witch-hunters' when it comes to 'assessing' products from Schiit, PSAudio and others. Amir's followers are parrots with no understanding or experience in hi-fi. This is fuelled by Amir's simplistic and misleading claims that $100 products are superior to $2500 products etc. For budget hi-fi-ers, this idea is wonderful! Link to post Share on other sites
sir sanders zingmore 11,997 Posted January 4, 2020 Share Posted January 4, 2020 34 minutes ago, was_a said: On the contrary, the ASR site are 'witch-hunters' when it comes to 'assessing' products from Schiit, PSAudio and others. Amir's followers are parrots with no understanding or experience in hi-fi. This is fuelled by Amir's simplistic and misleading claims that $100 products are superior to $2500 products etc. For budget hi-fi-ers, this idea is wonderful! A number of Schiit products have been”recommended”. Hardly evidence of a witch hunt. The poor measurements of the products that measure poorly are not a matter of opinion. They are simply measurements. As for $100 products......indeed. I replaced a ~$3k DAC with a $100 dac. There was no audible difference to me in a system that conventional wisdom claims is “very revealing” of upstream components. 1 Link to post Share on other sites
redrich2000 29 Posted January 4, 2020 Share Posted January 4, 2020 19 minutes ago, sir sanders zingmore said: A number of Schiit products have been”recommended”. Hardly evidence of a witch hunt. The poor measurements of the products that measure poorly are not a matter of opinion. They are simply measurements. As for $100 products......indeed. I replaced a ~$3k DAC with a $100 dac. There was no audible difference to me in a system that conventional wisdom claims is “very revealing” of upstream components. What absolute rubbish. If that's true, then you need to get another hobby. You wasted your $100 too. Just plug some turtle beach into your computer and go find some other forums to troll. 1 Link to post Share on other sites
redrich2000 29 Posted January 4, 2020 Share Posted January 4, 2020 1 hour ago, sir sanders zingmore said: Actually he’s gone to great lengths to explain differences in measurements and has made his measurement files available for people to scrutinise. As for getting banned from those sites, it’s no real surprise. Many of the products he has measured are made by sponsors/advertisers on those sites. No he actually hasn't. And at least those sites are transparent about their sponsorships. Link to post Share on other sites
rocky500 2,237 Posted January 4, 2020 Share Posted January 4, 2020 31 minutes ago, sir sanders zingmore said: As for $100 products......indeed. I replaced a ~$3k DAC with a $100 dac. There was no audible difference to me in a system that conventional wisdom claims is “very revealing” of upstream components. And yet, I did the comparison very similar to you and it made a huge difference to me. Go figure? 1 Link to post Share on other sites
was_a 581 Posted January 4, 2020 Share Posted January 4, 2020 Sir Sanders is talking about the Topping D10, I believe. Another Dessert With Topping from the ASR site. Link to post Share on other sites
rocky500 2,237 Posted January 4, 2020 Share Posted January 4, 2020 7 minutes ago, was_a said: Sir Sanders is talking about the Topping D10, I believe. Another Dessert With Topping from the ASR site. My 2 were the topping D50 and the same 3K dac. Link to post Share on other sites
Addicted to music 7,112 Posted January 4, 2020 Author Share Posted January 4, 2020 (edited) I have not heard his relentless products but have heard his momentum... theres a difference approached between a DAC and an amplifier. Even though he plays with circuits and tuned them by ear, and claims that the best measures may not sound the best yet his relentless have better measurements and does sound better, only because it’s a full balanced design and the capability is also different. Each to there own, if you’re into something that sounds impressive and cost X in your price range then buy it, no one is forcing people here to by a $100 DAC. Edited January 4, 2020 by Addicted to music Link to post Share on other sites
redrich2000 29 Posted January 4, 2020 Share Posted January 4, 2020 (edited) ... Edited January 4, 2020 by redrich2000 Link to post Share on other sites
Addicted to music 7,112 Posted January 4, 2020 Author Share Posted January 4, 2020 2 minutes ago, redrich2000 said: I don't believe you TBH. I think that like ASR, you have an agenda or are just a troll. I've had a bunch of different DACs over the years, in the $1-500 range. I always set them up to AB using an RCA switch. There is ALWAYS a difference between them, even if it's just in tonal balance. If you honestly can't hear the difference, you really are wasting your time and money in this hobby. So is it wrong to let go a $xxx product if you can’t hear the difference? Thats why people are on this thread looking for something that guarantees performance and doesn’t cost an arm and a leg.. this is what this thread is about... Link to post Share on other sites
Ittaku 4,386 Posted January 4, 2020 Share Posted January 4, 2020 6 minutes ago, redrich2000 said: I don't believe you TBH. I think that like ASR, you have an agenda or are just a troll. I've had a bunch of different DACs over the years, in the $1-500 range. I always set them up to AB using an RCA switch. There is ALWAYS a difference between them, even if it's just in tonal balance. If you honestly can't hear the difference, you really are wasting your time and money in this hobby. You're quoting the wrong person. He said there was a difference. Link to post Share on other sites
sir sanders zingmore 11,997 Posted January 4, 2020 Share Posted January 4, 2020 1 hour ago, redrich2000 said: What absolute rubbish. If that's true, then you need to get another hobby. You wasted your $100 too. Just plug some turtle beach into your computer and go find some other forums to troll. wow Link to post Share on other sites
a.dent 839 Posted January 4, 2020 Share Posted January 4, 2020 2 hours ago, was_a said: On the contrary, the ASR site are 'witch-hunters' when it comes to 'assessing' products from Schiit, PSAudio and others. Rubbish. Schiit and PS Audio products were measured exactly the same way as all the other brands. Amir is only critical of the products that performed badly. He is brand agnostic. He has not been critical of all Schiit and PS Audio products, only those that measure poorly. He has been just as critical of many other brands including Audio GD 2 hours ago, was_a said: Amir's followers are parrots with no understanding or experience in hi-fi. Again a completely baseless statement. Amir and most ASR readers, including me, have a long history of involvement in HiFi. 45 years in my case. I've had countless DACs in that time and I can tell you that spending more does not necessarily equate with better sound. Interestingly, the DAC that I found to sound clearly worse than all others was from Audio GD, products which ASR has found problems with. Most of the other DACs I've had have sounded so similar as to be virtually indistinguishable from each other. 2 hours ago, was_a said: This is fuelled by Amir's simplistic and misleading claims that $100 products are superior to $2500 products etc. For budget hi-fi-ers, this idea is wonderful! Again you are being deliberately misleading. Amir does not say $100 dollar products are superior to $2500 products. He and the other contributors measure products from all price ranges but the results speak for themselves and are price agnostic. I just can't understand why people get so worked up about facts. If you want to ignore them well good for you but to claim there are ulterior motives in the ASR measurements is real "conspiracy theory" stuff. 5 Link to post Share on other sites
Pops110 3,261 Posted January 4, 2020 Share Posted January 4, 2020 1 hour ago, redrich2000 said: What absolute rubbish. If that's true, then you need to get another hobby. You wasted your $100 too. Just plug some turtle beach into your computer and go find some other forums to troll. Have you heard the D90? What were your thoughts on the D30 that you owned and what dac are you using now? Just trying to get my head around some of your thoughts. In my experience as well differences between dacs is minuscule. I would be hard pressed to spot the difference between a lot of them. I did have a Primare Dac 30 in my system that retailed at around 2k and that was so dull and boring I hated it. 🤷♂️ 1 Link to post Share on other sites
was_a 581 Posted January 4, 2020 Share Posted January 4, 2020 For the moment let's leave aside your habit of quoting people out of context to make your arguments - often citing the odd exception to the rule! Your main point is that Amir is only critical of products that 'perform' badly, but this is the main issue for me. Because he is confining this complex criterion to a few sine wave measurements. Link to post Share on other sites
was_a 581 Posted January 4, 2020 Share Posted January 4, 2020 Just now, Pops110 said: Have you heard the D90? What were your thoughts on the D30 that you owned and what dac are you using now? Just trying to get my head around some of your thoughts. In my experience as well differences between dacs is minuscule. I would be hard pressed to spot the difference between a lot of them. I did have a Primare Dac 30 in my system that retailed at around 2k and that was so dull and boring I hated it. 🤷♂️ I've given my thoughts on this twice already earlier in the thread. Link to post Share on other sites
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