o2so Posted January 22, 2020 Share Posted January 22, 2020 (edited) 2 hours ago, a.dent said: Of course it's not easy but it's certainly not hard nowadays. Many manufacturers have achieved audibly transparent DAC designs in the last few years using solid engineering principles. These DACs measure well. The Topping D90 is such a DAC. Modern DACs are measurably the most transparent components in our systems. They are far more transparent (not contributing a "sound" to the audio chain) than amplifiers, speakers, analog sources and our rooms. I get the impression you are confusing what sounds good to you with what is transparent. There's nothing wrong with that from a personal perspective but it's hardly a reproducible result that can guide a person who is considering buying a new DAC. Going back to the Topping D90, its measured performance is clearly one of the best ever seen. I am not even sure there would be a point in having such an incredibly measuring DAC when I am not aware of many other audio chain components (amplifier or speaker) that could match a signal to noise and distortion of 120 db. At that level there are other factors for me coming into play, such as customer care support and cost. Edited January 22, 2020 by o2so 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Muon N' Posted January 22, 2020 Share Posted January 22, 2020 17 minutes ago, o2so said: My take is that if the features you mention are not in the recording, they cannot be generated by the audio chain. So, in my humble opinion, your best take to achieve what you want is to have a system as transparent to the recording as possible, good recordings, and a measured/corrected speaker/room interaction. I will reiterate that "transparent" to me does not mean "detailed" or "clinical". It means lack of coloration. You can then modify the sound signature to your taste using speakers/ room treatment/ DSP, if you like. At least that way one has more control on the final results. Good luck avoiding coloration, It's there with every part of the chain and circuit, the best you will get is something you might personally perceive as having no coloration. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
o2so Posted January 22, 2020 Share Posted January 22, 2020 1 minute ago, Muon N' said: Good luck avoiding coloration, It's there with every part of the chain and circuit, the best you will get is something you might personally perceive as having no coloration. Well one more reason to opt for components with low distortion, low noise, low output impedance and good linearity (in other words, components that measure well) 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Muon N' Posted January 22, 2020 Share Posted January 22, 2020 5 minutes ago, o2so said: Well one more reason to opt for components with low distortion, low noise, low output impedance and good linearity (in other words, components that measure well) Good on ya' Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
was_a Posted January 22, 2020 Share Posted January 22, 2020 I realise that nothing is going to change the Good Measurements = Transparency believers. They will continue to put their faith in sine wave charts to choose their dream DACs, comforted in the belief that a sterile, thin-sounding dynamically challenged source has no 'colouration'. I put it to you that the source is the most important part of the chain, because what goes in, comes out, no matter how good the amplification and transducer. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
o2so Posted January 22, 2020 Share Posted January 22, 2020 (edited) 2 hours ago, was_a said: I realise that nothing is going to change the Good Measurements = Transparency believers. They will continue to put their faith in sine wave charts to choose their dream DACs, comforted in the belief that a sterile, thin-sounding dynamically challenged source has no 'colouration'. I put it to you that the source is the most important part of the chain, because what goes in, comes out, no matter how good the amplification and transducer. If I have to put my faith in something I will certainly choose repeated measurements and several ABX test results over a bunch of audiophyle myths or uncontrolled subjective listening sessions, knowing how demonstrably biased these can be. But I do not have to put my faith in anything, so I did my ABX tests myself. Matched volume, friend swapping components and all. This is my experience and it is fine for someone else to have a different opinion, as long as it is presented politely. Edited January 22, 2020 by o2so 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
was_a Posted January 22, 2020 Share Posted January 22, 2020 Point taken! I apologise if I was impolite. I do think about and learn from most opinions expressed on SNA. I think I get...frustrated when important attributes in a DAC are confined to sine wave charts. Because this is misleading, in my opinion, and doesn't serve newcomers to our hobby. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
silversurfer Posted January 23, 2020 Share Posted January 23, 2020 I actually have one; received it this morning. My main dac is a Metrum Pavane which is fantastic but slightly sleepy, also have a Border Patrol and they all perform very good with my headphones(HD800S, SR009S, SR007 and various Audeze) and amps( KGST, KGSS, Woo WA22, HDV820 and Hifiman EF6) but I always wanted a more holographic soundstage and Instrument/vocals layering. And at the moment the D90 does just that...relaxed sound with effortless extension up and down, warmish but ultra clear as in good body with faultless resolution. The holographic aspect is quite stunning with instruments and voices presented around me and deep into the soundstage...as they say like being in the room with the artist. Not regretting the purchase and possibly going to sell the Pavane. 5 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JPete9 Posted January 23, 2020 Share Posted January 23, 2020 @silversurfer I am curious. On Norah Jones - Sunrise the top of her voice can seem like it has an edge on some equipment, can sound a little harsh. Can you try this song and tell us your thoughts? It might even be an issue with the mix, but i guess being able to deal with anything is a good attribute? what other music are you testing it with? Any acoustic? Did you ever have the Topping D50 - how'd is compare to that? 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
silversurfer Posted January 23, 2020 Share Posted January 23, 2020 I mainly listen to singer/songwriter, so it is mostly acoustic...Neil Young, James Taylor, Joni Mitchell etc. Jones‘ voice on Sunrise seems to have a slight edge, also the piano is loose sounding and I think that’s the recording. No experience with other Topping products...in my audiophile arrogance I never really cared much for cheaper gear. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
o2so Posted January 23, 2020 Share Posted January 23, 2020 2 hours ago, silversurfer said: No experience with other Topping products...in my audiophile arrogance I never really cared much for cheaper gear. LOL Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ittaku Posted January 23, 2020 Share Posted January 23, 2020 Interestingly in some of their previous DAC headphone combos they had digital outs as well, allowing you to use them as both DACs and USB to SPDIF converters, which is how I use the DX7s that I have (both as a headphone system DAC and an SPDIF converter for my main system.) I'd be interested in a "DX9s" equivalent of the D90 if they brought one out since they're now using some nice low jitter (under 100fs) clocks in them as a replacement for my 7Xs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kelossus Posted January 24, 2020 Share Posted January 24, 2020 (edited) Are there any other thoughts on the D90? Particular vs other well known DAC's like the Directstream and Giesler's range of products. If these units are really better than a Pavane or a Directsteam it's a simple decision and I'll buy one right now. I have skimmed through a few threads on various Forums but subjective opinions or comparisons are few. For the most part the discussion seems to be focused on the how well the DAC measures and the dispute around measurements being meaningful. This is all par for the course on a forum but it's a pain to skim through 20 pages to find out very little as to what this actually sounds like. Edited January 24, 2020 by kelossus 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TDX Posted January 24, 2020 Share Posted January 24, 2020 20 minutes ago, kelossus said: Are there any other thoughts on the D90? Particular vs other well known DAC's like the Directstream and Giesler's range of products. If these units are really better than a Pavane or a Directsteam it's a simple decision and I'll buy one right now. I have skimmed through a few threads on various Forums but subjective opinions or comparisons are few. For the most part the discussion seems to be focused on the how well the DAC measures and the dispute around measurements being meaningful. This is all par for the course on a forum but it's a pain to skim through 20 pages to find out very little as to what this actually sounds like. Agree. I’d rather read subjective comparison, at least somebody bought two dac and compared. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kelossus Posted January 24, 2020 Share Posted January 24, 2020 Man this is really tickling my buying bone. I just need some further encouragement. Digital is not my primary listening source but oddly enough I listen to more music when I have it. The relative ease of it these days gets me down in the hifi room more often. I am torn as I had my heart set on a Fein II but at more than twice the price this Topping is mighty attractive. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PositivelyMusicallyGeared Posted January 24, 2020 Share Posted January 24, 2020 1 hour ago, kelossus said: I am torn as I had my heart set on a Fein II but at more than twice the price this Topping is mighty attractive. Well, given where you are, you are well-positioned to compare the two if you get D90. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kelossus Posted January 24, 2020 Share Posted January 24, 2020 Since that post I have now read the ASR and this SNA thread in it's entirety and it certainly has me reconsidering the whole purchase. I feel like I am getting sucked into the somewhat false hype based purely on measurements. I need some solid recommendations from experienced ears. Also historically the new Topping models get released on MassDrop at a discount, it might be worth waiting? I am somewhat prepared to buy it and take a possible 30-40% loss on the 2nd hand market if it's not my cup of tea. I would need to directly compare it to the Fein/Grob to draw any conclusions. I am sure a few local SNA members would be interested to see how this stacked up, maybe even Clay? I don't think it would be as good as Clay's products but that is based on nothing. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
was_a Posted January 24, 2020 Share Posted January 24, 2020 I've just been catching up on this... labyrinth... of a thread, and noticed Silversurfer's opinion on the D90 in a headphone system (and his intention to sell his Metrum Pavane!!). In my opinion a headphone system will not tell you everything about the sound quality of a DAC. Attributes like dynamics, solidity of bass (heft), and certain frequency traits are difficult to ascertain through a headphone. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PositivelyMusicallyGeared Posted January 24, 2020 Share Posted January 24, 2020 I have not actually seen the full specs, items such as the output impedance, etc. I would also rather it had higher output voltage, but that might be pushing it given the small size of its enclosure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kelossus Posted January 24, 2020 Share Posted January 24, 2020 (edited) 5 minutes ago, PositivelyMusicallyGeared said: I have not actually seen the full specs, items such as the output impedance, etc. I would also rather it had higher output voltage, but that might be pushing it given the small size of its enclosure. It's 4 volts though the XLRs, is that considered low? I know when I first had the Directstream in my system I noticed right away the compensation required on my volume dial, it's only 2.8v. Edit: Oh wait is this a situation were the lower the voltage the better/louder? Edited January 24, 2020 by kelossus Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PositivelyMusicallyGeared Posted January 24, 2020 Share Posted January 24, 2020 4 minutes ago, kelossus said: It's 4 volts though the XLRs, is that considered low? I know when I first had the Directstream in my system I noticed right away the compensation required on my volume dial, it's only 2.8v. It is not low, nor is it high; and it is usually not a problem, unless you have a very demanding power amp. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Muon N' Posted January 24, 2020 Share Posted January 24, 2020 (edited) line level is generally 2v isn't it? Edit: that is what my CD Player is 2Vrms, definitely don't need higher. Edited January 24, 2020 by Muon N' Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kelossus Posted January 24, 2020 Share Posted January 24, 2020 14 minutes ago, Muon N' said: line level is generally 2v isn't it? Edit: that is what my CD Player is 2Vrms, definitely don't need higher. I was quoting balanced figures which are usually double. The Directstream is 1.4v unbalanced. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Muon N' Posted January 24, 2020 Share Posted January 24, 2020 15 minutes ago, kelossus said: I was quoting balanced figures which are usually double. The Directstream is 1.4v unbalanced. OK, I'm only familiar with traditional levels of 2v for domestic gear and 5v for pro stuff. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mungbean66 Posted January 24, 2020 Share Posted January 24, 2020 3 hours ago, was_a said: In my opinion a headphone system will not tell you everything about the sound quality of a DAC. Attributes like dynamics, solidity of bass (heft), and certain frequency traits are difficult to ascertain through a headphone. Although speakers image better and sound much more natural, headphones lack the issue of being surround by a room and are probably better for critical listening. They are a much cheaper alternative to reach 'high end' and have phenomenal detail retrieval. What I'm getting at is headphones would be a better indicator of a DACs performance as very subtle things can make a DAC unlistenable. 3 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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