Topping Owners & Discussion Thread

[redrich2000]

1 hour ago, sir sanders zingmore said:

Actually he’s gone to great lengths to explain differences in measurements and has made his measurement files available for people to scrutinise. 
 

As for getting banned from those sites, it’s no real surprise. Many of the products he has measured are made by sponsors/advertisers on those sites. 

 

No he actually hasn't. And at least those sites are transparent about their sponsorships. 

[rocky500]

31 minutes ago, sir sanders zingmore said:

As for $100 products......indeed.  I replaced a ~$3k DAC with a $100 dac. There was no audible difference to me in a system that conventional wisdom claims is “very revealing” of upstream components. 

And yet, I did the comparison very similar to you and it made a huge difference to me. Go figure?

[was_a]

Sir Sanders is talking about the Topping D10, I believe. Another Dessert With Topping from the ASR site.

[rocky500]

7 minutes ago, was_a said:

Sir Sanders is talking about the Topping D10, I believe. Another Dessert With Topping from the ASR site.

My 2 were the topping D50 and the same 3K dac.

[Addicted to music]

 

I have not heard his relentless products but have heard his momentum...

theres a difference approached between a DAC and an amplifier.  Even though he plays with circuits and tuned them by ear,  and claims that the best measures may not sound the best yet  his relentless have better measurements and does sound better, only because it’s a full balanced design and the capability is also different.  

Each to there own,  if you’re into something that sounds impressive and cost X in your price range then buy it, no one is forcing people here to by a $100 DAC.

Edited January 4, 2020 by Addicted to music

[redrich2000]

...

Edited January 4, 2020 by redrich2000

[Addicted to music]

2 minutes ago, redrich2000 said:

I don't believe you TBH. I think that like ASR, you have an agenda or are just a troll. I've had a bunch of different DACs over the years, in the $1-500 range. I always set them up to AB using an RCA switch. There is ALWAYS a difference between them, even if it's just in tonal balance.

 

If you honestly can't hear the difference, you really are wasting your time and money in this hobby. 

So is it wrong to let go a $xxx product if you can’t hear the difference?    

Thats why people are on this thread looking for something that guarantees performance and doesn’t cost an arm and a leg..  this is what this thread is about...

[Ittaku]

6 minutes ago, redrich2000 said:

I don't believe you TBH. I think that like ASR, you have an agenda or are just a troll. I've had a bunch of different DACs over the years, in the $1-500 range. I always set them up to AB using an RCA switch. There is ALWAYS a difference between them, even if it's just in tonal balance.

 

If you honestly can't hear the difference, you really are wasting your time and money in this hobby. 

You're quoting the wrong person. He said there was a difference.

[sir sanders zingmore]

1 hour ago, redrich2000 said:

What absolute rubbish. If that's true, then you need to get another hobby. You wasted your $100 too. Just plug some turtle beach into your computer and go find some other forums to troll.

wow

 

[a.dent]

2 hours ago, was_a said:

On the contrary, the ASR site are 'witch-hunters' when it comes to 'assessing' products from Schiit, PSAudio and others.

Rubbish. Schiit and PS Audio products were measured exactly the same way as all the other brands. Amir is only critical of the products that performed badly. He is brand agnostic. He has not been critical of all Schiit and PS Audio products, only those  that measure poorly. He has been just as critical of many other brands including Audio GD

2 hours ago, was_a said:

Amir's followers are parrots with no understanding or experience in hi-fi.

Again a completely baseless statement. Amir and most ASR readers, including me, have a long history of involvement in HiFi. 45 years in my case. I've had countless DACs in that time and I can tell you that spending more does not necessarily equate with better sound. Interestingly, the DAC that I found to sound clearly worse than all others was from Audio GD, products which ASR has found problems with. Most of the other DACs I've had have sounded so similar as to be virtually indistinguishable from each other.

2 hours ago, was_a said:

 

This is fuelled by Amir's simplistic and misleading claims that $100 products are superior to $2500 products etc. For budget hi-fi-ers, this idea is wonderful! 

Again you are being deliberately misleading. Amir does not say $100 dollar products are superior to $2500 products. He and the other contributors measure products from all price ranges but the results speak for themselves and are price agnostic.

 

I just can't understand why people get so worked up about facts. If you want to ignore them well good for you but to claim there are ulterior motives in the ASR measurements is real "conspiracy theory" stuff.

 

[Pops110]

1 hour ago, redrich2000 said:

What absolute rubbish. If that's true, then you need to get another hobby. You wasted your $100 too. Just plug some turtle beach into your computer and go find some other forums to troll.

Have you heard the D90? What were your thoughts on the D30 that you owned and what dac are you using now? Just trying to get my head around some of your thoughts.

In my experience as well differences between dacs is minuscule. I would be hard pressed to spot the difference between a lot of them. I did have a Primare Dac 30 in my system that retailed at around 2k and that was so dull and boring I hated it.

[was_a]

For the moment let's leave aside your habit of quoting people out of context to make your arguments - often citing the odd exception to the rule! Your main point is that Amir is only critical of products that 'perform' badly, but this is the main issue for me. Because he is confining this complex criterion to a few sine wave measurements. 

 

 

 

 

 

[was_a]

Just now, Pops110 said:

Have you heard the D90? What were your thoughts on the D30 that you owned and what dac are you using now? Just trying to get my head around some of your thoughts.

In my experience as well differences between dacs is minuscule. I would be hard pressed to spot the difference between a lot of them. I did have a Primare Dac 30 in my system that retailed at around 2k and that was so dull and boring I hated it.

I've given my thoughts on this twice already earlier in the thread. 

[Pops110]

2 minutes ago, was_a said:

I've given my thoughts on this twice already earlier in the thread. 

I quoted redrich2000, not yourself.

[was_a]

Oh, sorry. (I thought the world revolved around me...).

 

 

 

 

Edited January 4, 2020 by was_a

[Addicted to music]

49 minutes ago, a.dent said:

. Interestingly, the DAC that I found to sound clearly worse than all others was from Audio GD, products which ASR has found problems with. Most of the other DACs I've had have sounded so similar as to be virtually indistinguishable from each other.

 

I concur.  

[THOMO]

Yeahno.Audio Gd must sound better because they use fully discrete output stages and Accuphase DACs must sound like crap because they use op amp output stages.Did the Stereonet golden era of DAC of the month not teach us anything?And where are the Killer DAC people when we need them?

[sleach]

I like ASR, and I enjoy this site and others too. Usually if you read the reviews of the equipment on ASR there's quite a bit of consideration and thinking about why products perform the way they do. I don't have a technical background, but I've been interested in audio for a few years and I learn a lot from what Amir and others write. I used to enjoy when Lukas from Lampizator did his analyses of how certain products worked too.

 

I find the intensity of hostility to ASR  amazing. I understand people have criticisms, but it gets quite extreme.

 

This thread is pretty entertaining though.

 

Also the D90 looks like a nice unit.

 

Edited January 5, 2020 by sleach

[Guest Muon N']

2 hours ago, THOMO said:

Yeahno.Audio Gd must sound better because they use fully discrete output stages and Accuphase DACs must sound like crap because they use op amp output stages.Did the Stereonet golden era of DAC of the month not teach us anything?And where are the Killer DAC people when we need them?

Any output topology can be done very well or very badly and anywhere in-between, my preferences lay with Thorsten Loesch's design thoughts, he seems to prefer discrete..... but more so the use if done well  tube and or transformer output stages, and with Op Amps I also like the fet input Op Amps, all on the prevision it is of good design.

 

Edit: Thorsten makes some interesting points about Op Amp in this article.

http://www.enjoythemusic.com/diy/0310/marantz_cd_mod.htm

Edited January 5, 2020 by Muon N'

[kelossus]

5 hours ago, sir sanders zingmore said:

A number of Schiit products have been”recommended”. Hardly evidence of a witch hunt. 
The poor measurements of the products that measure poorly are not a matter of opinion. They are simply measurements. 
 

As for $100 products......indeed.  I replaced a ~$3k DAC with a $100 dac. There was no audible difference to me in a system that conventional wisdom claims is “very revealing” of upstream components. 

What Dac's are you referring to? Especially the $100 one.

Edited January 5, 2020 by kelossus

[sir sanders zingmore]

1 minute ago, kelossus said:

What Dac's are you referring to? Especially the $100 one.

Topping D10 replaced my Holo

[Guest rmpfyf]

1 hour ago, THOMO said:

And where are the Killer DAC people when we need them?

Hi  

 

Amir isn't the font of all knowledge he and his peeps occasionally make themselves out to be and some of his methods are scientifically laughable, but his stuff is available and free. You'd need some exceptional prowess in digital signal processing and a deep understanding of analogue and digital signal/data paths  to be able to use an analyser sufficiently to reconcile some of what's being heard to data correctly - which is not always what he does! - and a lot of time. 

Again I'd point out ASR is offered free. It's just a data point in context, offered free. Context is important  

 

All we know of the D90 from ASR is that when run through an analyser on a certain series of tests by a certain buy with data processed in a certain way and visualised so, that it compares favourably to other products supposedly measured consistently. 

 

It's not all bad. If not for ASR I'd never have heard of a Topping D10, and that killed every DAC I'd ever owned under $200 with ease. I can't tell you if it's the best sub-$200 DAC out there, and no, it didn't replace my main DAC. Though that some people here have replaced a $3k DAC with a $100 doesn't make them idiots, it makes them up to $2900 better off. Buying a nice shiny DAC because we think it'll sound good is silly, buying one because some limited-context graphs look relatively nice is also silly. Yet neither are implausible. We can't road test everything. 

 

Keen to hear what this D90 sounds like irrespective of what ASR does. 

[Batty]

I have a Topping TP20mk2 single input integrated amp, fits in the palm of my hand. I paid $50 about 7 years ago, running Spotify from a tablet into 1970 full range speakers.

Sounds great unless you turn it up, I reckon 8 watts into 8 ohms.

That is the only Topping experience I have, I do have a Muse TDA 1543x4 DAC Which for the money is not going anywhere.

[Guest Muon N']

I have experienced Chocolate and Caramel Topping only

 

I preferred Chocolate

[was_a]

1 hour ago, Batty said:

I have a Topping TP20mk2 single input integrated amp, fits in the palm of my hand. I paid $50 about 7 years ago, running Spotify from a tablet into 1970 full range speakers.

Sounds great unless you turn it up, I reckon 8 watts into 8 ohms.

That is the only Topping experience I have, I do have a Muse TDA 1543x4 DAC Which for the money is not going anywhere.

Yes I had that! Great little amp... That era of Topping was so interesting, and I still admire their current budget products, including the D10 and D30. But I don't believe they are doing justice to the latest, more expensive DAC chips - which are inherently more complicated to implement well. Sure, the noise and distortion measurements will be wonderful, but like I've said often on this thread, that means little in terms of sound quality.