Addicted to music Posted December 31, 2019 Author Share Posted December 31, 2019 Off topic: i bought one one of these PCB but it was a BB 1798 with a psu included when I 1st got onto SNA.... total cost delivered was under $100AU. https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/wm8740-dir9001-dac-board-review.10608/ Not bad compared to some projects that wS going to cost $1000s. When I hooked it all up it sounded terrific with certain materials and in some it was just unbearable distortion.... could never work out why some recording was OK and others you just couldn’t listen too. Well ASR has confirmed why some recordings just distorted like crazy look at the measurements here and you can see why. This pcb is very similar to the one I got hence the reason I never felt it was worth putting it in a case. When I got other DAC such as the EE mini max and the NAD M51 there was no hint of distortion whatsoever ever in the materials that I couldn’t listen to with this pcb that I bought of fleebay..... Now with the Topping products that measure so well, the D50 is well above board comes in a case and all you do is supply it with 5V and it sounds great on any recording I throw at it..... just goes to show that measurements matters.... 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
was_a Posted January 1, 2020 Share Posted January 1, 2020 All this chatter about measurements and none about the physical constraints of small DACs. There's simply not enough room in a Topping case for anything other than budget requirements. You can't cheat physics, folks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deafenears Posted January 1, 2020 Share Posted January 1, 2020 8 hours ago, was_a said: All this chatter about measurements and none about the physical constraints of small DACs. There's simply not enough room in a Topping case for anything other than budget requirements. You can't cheat physics, folks. Better engineering lets you 'cheat physics', look at the evolution of computers, smart phones, etc. We get it, you've shown your dislike of ASR and Topping. Maybe you could provide facts and back up your claims of 'budget requirements'? Maybe provide a list of the DACs you favour and compare to (this DAC does this better than the D90 because... etc.)? Disclaimer, I don't currently own any Topping products nor do I intend on purchasing a D90 but I applaud them pouring resources into R&D and engineering, being one of the first to release products using the latest tech. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
qwerter Posted January 1, 2020 Share Posted January 1, 2020 22 hours ago, Addicted to music said: Off topic: i bought one one of these PCB but it was a BB 1798 with a psu included when I 1st got onto SNA.... total cost delivered was under $100AU. https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/wm8740-dir9001-dac-board-review.10608/ Not bad compared to some projects that wS going to cost $1000s. When I hooked it all up it sounded terrific with certain materials and in some it was just unbearable distortion.... could never work out why some recording was OK and others you just couldn’t listen too. Well ASR has confirmed why some recordings just distorted like crazy look at the measurements here and you can see why. This pcb is very similar to the one I got hence the reason I never felt it was worth putting it in a case. When I got other DAC such as the EE mini max and the NAD M51 there was no hint of distortion whatsoever ever in the materials that I couldn’t listen to with this pcb that I bought of fleebay..... Now with the Topping products that measure so well, the D50 is well above board comes in a case and all you do is supply it with 5V and it sounds great on any recording I throw at it..... just goes to show that measurements matters.... I have Topping D50s in my headphone system and I am quite happy with it. Use it with Topping P50 power supply. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cope Posted January 1, 2020 Share Posted January 1, 2020 8 hours ago, was_a said: There's simply not enough room in a Topping case for anything other than budget requirements. You can't cheat physics, folks. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cope Posted January 1, 2020 Share Posted January 1, 2020 12 minutes ago, qwerter said: I have Topping D50s in my headphone system and I am quite happy with it. Use it with Topping P50 power supply. How do you find the P50? Does it heat up much? I'm happy with the switching supply I have at the moment, but if I get the A50 I'll probably want the P50 to consolidate supplies (rather than any belief that a linear supply is better or worse). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
qwerter Posted January 1, 2020 Share Posted January 1, 2020 1 minute ago, twofires said: How do you find the P50? Does it heat up much? I'm happy with the switching supply I have at the moment, but if I get the A50 I'll probably want the P50 to consolidate supplies (rather than any belief that a linear supply is better or worse). No, I didn't find it heating up too much. Not with D50s anyway. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Addicted to music Posted January 1, 2020 Author Share Posted January 1, 2020 9 hours ago, was_a said: All this chatter about measurements and none about the physical constraints of small DACs. There's simply not enough room in a Topping case for anything other than budget requirements. You can't cheat physics, folks. Well you started it! And,,,,, Yes there was, it’s obviously you missed my point about industrial standards and how things are built today..... if you haven’t notice, Topping uses SMDs which have huge specification benefits than yesteryear through the hole components, note that all DAC chips are now SMDs and you won’t find one that’s not And almost all DAC manaufactuers and any electronics manufacturers will use SMD, there is no going back, the consumer demands; reduction in size occupying less realestate also the other majors benefit is power reduction. Benefits of SMDs reduces the parasitic LCR on a component construction level due to the reduced physical size and on connection leads, How do you think that they can get outstanding measurements to this level? Going down to -130 -140 on noise levels on the graphs was unheard of with through the hole components, components like Opamps that are SOIC can have components closer where it increases PSRR. Now with SMDs we are reaching and exceeding performance figures that wasn’t achievable previously period and if you think large caps should be used think again this isn’t an amplifier driving 2 ohm loads, this is a DAC that converts digital codex to a voltage gain of 2-4Vrms So bigger doesn’t mean better, I don’t have to say it but look under the hood of a PS Audio DAC and you will wonder why you paid so much cash when you can have a Topping that literally does exactly the same thing...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
was_a Posted January 1, 2020 Share Posted January 1, 2020 (edited) 1 hour ago, deafenears said: Better engineering lets you 'cheat physics', look at the evolution of computers, smart phones, etc. We get it, you've shown your dislike of ASR and Topping. Maybe you could provide facts and back up your claims of 'budget requirements'? Maybe provide a list of the DACs you favour and compare to (this DAC does this better than the D90 because... etc.)? Disclaimer, I don't currently own any Topping products nor do I intend on purchasing a D90 but I applaud them pouring resources into R&D and engineering, being one of the first to release products using the latest tech. We get it? Or you get it? What do you get?? I got it! I mean, I read your disclaimer! Not exactly helping your cause, because unlike you, I have experience with Topping's products. I own the Topping D30 and like it for what it is. I have owned Topping's matching headphone amp, and it wasn't bad either. I have also owned the D50 and D70 DACs, and believe they are overpriced for what's inside their (small) cases. Regarding the D90, Topping being among the first adopters of AKM's new AK4499 chip is not something I would be so quick to applaud. By all accounts it's complicated to implement. This new chip measures well, so it's easy to send something off to ASR and get a glowing endorsement. But none of this means anything sound-wise. My main concern is that people new to hi-fi are being hoodwinked into believing the hype on ASR. Edited January 1, 2020 by was_a 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Addicted to music Posted January 1, 2020 Author Share Posted January 1, 2020 1 hour ago, qwerter said: No, I didn't find it heating up too much. Not with D50s anyway. You’ll be surprise what I use...... definitely not a dedicated supply and definitely not something fancy........... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Addicted to music Posted January 1, 2020 Author Share Posted January 1, 2020 6 minutes ago, was_a said: . My main concern is that people new to hi-fi are being hoodwinked into believing the hype on ASR. Measurements through the manufacturer and independent testing are considered trustworthy, subjective claims are not..... so who’s hoodwinking who? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
qwerter Posted January 1, 2020 Share Posted January 1, 2020 4 minutes ago, Addicted to music said: You’ll be surprise what I use...... definitely not a dedicated supply and definitely not something fancy........... USB? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Addicted to music Posted January 1, 2020 Author Share Posted January 1, 2020 2 minutes ago, qwerter said: USB? Nope. Im a tight arse, and I have no desire to upgrade, it sounds good as it is.... I use a cheap 4.5V power brick that was used to recharge a lithium ion device... done! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
was_a Posted January 1, 2020 Share Posted January 1, 2020 (edited) 12 minutes ago, Addicted to music said: Measurements through the manufacturer and independent testing are considered trustworthy, subjective claims are not..... so who’s hoodwinking who? You! You are hoodwinking me! Because the vast majority of reviews use measurements to 'check' on a product's credentials and for technical interest, but spend most of the effort on listening to the product and comparing it to other products in the same category or price-range. This gives the reader a good reference point. ASR readers are given very little to go on. A crying shame for the newbies. PS. Your post on SMDs show me you have a one-dimensional focus on DAC design, and that you ignore what is trully important in a source. Edited January 1, 2020 by was_a Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Addicted to music Posted January 1, 2020 Author Share Posted January 1, 2020 1 minute ago, was_a said: You! You are hoodwinking me! . ASR readers are given very little to go on. A crying shame for the newbies. Id go blind and buy a product that’s engineered well and I know it works well via specific test methods that are endorsed, i have to follow the same principle at work... Trusting someone description on sound quality is subjective, above all never trust me, because my ears are F—-d! I’m 55 turning 56.. so if I’m gonna trust some audiophiles description then it’ll be none, as most are male on this site and I’m going out on a limb here, most are not teenagers or in there early 20s.... and just because you are an audiophile with the developed skills in your hobbie doesn’t mean that I will like what you like. So in that case I’ll ask again, who’s hoodwinking who? 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Volunteer sir sanders zingmore Posted January 1, 2020 Volunteer Share Posted January 1, 2020 29 minutes ago, was_a said: My main concern is that people new to hi-fi are being hoodwinked into believing the hype on ASR. they are being hoodwinked into spending hundred of dollars….. Choose your own hoodwinkery 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
was_a Posted January 1, 2020 Share Posted January 1, 2020 (edited) 14 minutes ago, Addicted to music said: Id go blind and buy a product that’s engineered well and I know it works well via specific test methods that are endorsed, i have to follow the same principle at work... Trusting someone description on sound quality is subjective, above all never trust me, because my ears are F—-d! I’m 55 turning 56.. so if I’m gonna trust some audiophiles description then it’ll be none, as most are male on this site and I’m going out on a limb here, most are not teenagers or in there early 20s.... and just because you are an audiophile with the developed skills in your hobbie doesn’t mean that I will like what you like. So in that case I’ll ask again, who’s hoodwinking who? Wait...blind and deaf?? Well, yes, I take your point that every audiophile has their own tastes. Regarding hoodwinkery (nice one Trevor!!), I guess I'm just reacting to a few Amir (or whatever his name is) threads on ASR, where he strongly endorses a product and scores of followers reply: 'Wow, fantastic, I'm gonna buy it now!'. Edited January 1, 2020 by was_a Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
a.dent Posted January 1, 2020 Share Posted January 1, 2020 10 hours ago, was_a said: All this chatter about measurements and none about the physical constraints of small DACs. There's simply not enough room in a Topping case for anything other than budget requirements. You can't cheat physics, folks. That's not true. 29 minutes ago, was_a said: We get it? Or you get it? What do you get?? I got it! I mean, I read your disclaimer! Not exactly helping your cause, because unlike you, I have experience with Topping's products. I own the Topping D30 and like it for what it is. I have owned Topping's matching headphone amp, and it wasn't bad either. I have also owned the D50 and D70 DACs, and believe they are overpriced for what's inside their (small) cases. Regarding the D90, Topping being among the first adopters of AKM's new AK4499 chip is not something I would be so quick to applaud. By all accounts it's complicated to implement. This new chip measures well, so it's easy to send something off to ASR and get a glowing endorsement. But none of this means anything sound-wise. My main concern is that people new to hi-fi are being hoodwinked into believing the hype on ASR. That's also not true. Measurements give a good guide to what gear will sound bad. If a DAC measures well it will not have a unique "sound". It will simply provide accurate digital to analog conversion. If you want your system to have a "sound" put some tubes in. 6 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
was_a Posted January 1, 2020 Share Posted January 1, 2020 (edited) Sorry, but I completely disagree with everything you just said. To quote you: That's not true...That's also not true... And you can quote me when I say that you are seriously mistaken on both those points. (I mean, I can use bold print too, right?). Edited January 1, 2020 by was_a Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Addicted to music Posted January 1, 2020 Author Share Posted January 1, 2020 4 minutes ago, sir sanders zingmore said: they are being hoodwinked into spending hundred of dollars….. Choose your own hoodwinkery Done! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Volunteer sir sanders zingmore Posted January 1, 2020 Volunteer Share Posted January 1, 2020 2 minutes ago, was_a said: Regarding hookwinkery (nice one Trevor!!), I guess I'm just reacting to a few Amir (or whatever his name is) threads on ASR, where he strongly endorses a product and scores of followers reply: 'Wow, fantastic, I'm gonna buy it now! You make an interesting point (although I thing "scores" is an exaggeration - certainly at this stage, far fewer people base their purchases on ASR measurements than on reviews they read on forums or in the hifi press) I do think though, that if two DACS are audibly indistinguishable it's a bit silly to buy one just because it measures better than the other. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Addicted to music Posted January 1, 2020 Author Share Posted January 1, 2020 5 minutes ago, a.dent said: Measurements give a good guide to what gear will sound bad. If a DAC measures well it will not have a unique "sound". It will simply provide accurate digital to analog conversion. Agreed, it’s what I classified as accurate SQ. 7 minutes ago, a.dent said: If you want your system to have a "sound" put some tubes in. It’s what I classified as subjective manipulation..... if you want impressive sound with all the nice audiophile description , put a tube buffer in it to colour it so it’s “ impressive SQ” 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
was_a Posted January 1, 2020 Share Posted January 1, 2020 Complete falsehood. Just because a DAC measures well doesn't mean it will accurately reproduce the sound of an instrument, voice, acoustic cues etc. If you believe that, then you really are lucky because you won't have to spend much money to enjoy hi-fi! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Addicted to music Posted January 1, 2020 Author Share Posted January 1, 2020 3 minutes ago, was_a said: Complete falsehood. Just because a DAC measures well doesn't mean it will accurately reproduce the sound of an instrument, voice, acoustic cues etc.! Likewise Just becuase you think it doesn’t reproduce music instruments and voices accurately doesn’t mean it’s not accurate... you have an expectation on what it should sound like accurately, however a well measured and engineered gear will always be transparent, how do you know that that an accurate DAC or piece of equipment is showing the limitation of that recording.... ive been here many times.... 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kukynas Posted January 1, 2020 Share Posted January 1, 2020 7 minutes ago, was_a said: Just because a DAC measures well doesn't mean it will accurately reproduce the sound of an instrument, voice, acoustic cues etc. agreed, coz that's not DAC's job, the only job DAC has to do is accurately convert digital signal into analog and pass it over to the next stage and if it measures well there's some guarantee it does that conversion as accurately as possible, I wouldn't expect anything more 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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